Question for Herding dog owners

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by Bodi's Mom, May 5, 2009.

  1. Bodi's Mom

    Bodi's Mom Hylen's Bodacious Big Boy

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    One of my neighbors has a 4 year old neutered, male, Bearded Collie - he is so sweet - a typical Beardy. They wanted to get a rescue to add to their canine family - so they recently brought home a 3 year old neutered, male Corgi. They have had him for about three weeks now, and all these pups seem to do is run around the yard (about one acre) nipping at each others heels. Can two herding dogs live together peacefully? My neighbors are wondering if they made a good decision. The Beardy seems to be getting chased and herded more than the Corgi - generally, the minute one of them moves, the other is on a mission to herd.
     
  2. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Yep, they can live peacefully with each other. We had multiple herders for 12 years just fine. I'd guess if the nipping really bothered one of the dogs, the other would let them know. None of my herders have been huge dog nippers though Trey occasionally will slip a nip to the paps but they seem to ignore him. He only tried that once or twice with Nikki then she let him know that was NOT going to keep happening. :rofl1:
     
  3. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Is the beardy having fun? Herding dogs seem to have a play style all their own. Sometimes you are the herder.. sometimes you are the herdie.
     
  4. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    What makes them think they aren't living together peacefully?

    Having four herding dogs, I can definitely say that when herding dogs play, they engage in quite a bit of herding behaviors with each other - chasing, nipping, cutting each other off from the front, etc.

    I think I'd be more worried if it was the other way around...would suggest perhaps that it wasn't a real corgi. ;) :rofl1:
     
  5. Tankstar

    Tankstar ~Lisa~

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    I think they can live fine together as long as they both enjoy that type of play. Herders seem to have their own play, round up dogs, bark bark bark, nip, bark some more and chase lol. its funny to see Blaze at the dog park "herding" up his group of buddies. I never let him escalate to much on dogs we dont know, as his play can be annoying to other dogs, but with his buddies, they seem to enjoy all the barking and nipping he does to them
     
  6. Bodi's Mom

    Bodi's Mom Hylen's Bodacious Big Boy

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    The Beardy is definitely the "herdie" - he is and was the submissive one. The Corgi is the nipper, the chaser, the barker, the growler, the "herder" - he seems to instigate most of the time. I think the owners are concerned that their original dog (The Beardy) is somewhat being bullied. Info from you folks definitely helps - especially as you describe the play habits of herders. I'll take this info back to my neighbors. Thanks you guys!
     
  7. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    Yes, herding dogs can and do live peacefully with the right owners.

    My male used to have a huge problem with barking/growling/bitting the other dogs heels if they ran or started to bark if left outside unatended. It would look like play -tail up, play bow while doing it- but he was most certainly not playing. With correction, he doesn't do it much at all now, but he had to have alot of correction and training (words like "HEY, cut that out, NO!" that meant "Stop that crap NOW"

    If the Corgi keeps doing that, I'd suggest to your neighbors that they put the Corgi in the last place in 'pack' order. What that means is the Corgi is made to take the position below the owners AND the Beardie. Alot like a NILIF program, and the Beardie gets everything first to show the Corgi that he is the new dog here, and should get treated like it.
     
  8. ~Tucker&Me~

    ~Tucker&Me~ and Spy.

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    I would be hesitant to do this... If the corgi is naturally more dominant than the beardie, than upsetting that order will, IMO, cause problems. By trying to manipulate the hierarchy, it is very probable that the corgi would feel the need to prove that he in fact, is the dominant one. I think by doing that the beardie would be subject to bullying. As long as the corgi isn't full out bullying him, and the beardie doesn't seem distressed, I see no reason to intervene.

    Just my 2 cents :)

    ~Tucker
     
  9. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    If the beardie is being overwhelmed by the corgi, I would suggest removing the corgi from the situation when he gets worked up. Put him in a pen or a crate, let him calm down, then let them play again. As soon as the corgi gets worked up again, he gets removed. If he plays nice, he can stay out and play Otherwise he can't.

    I don't know much about beardies. I do know my corgis play in the same way and it is just play and they chase the mal's in the same way and the mals chase back and they all enjoy it. There's an occasional scuff if someone crosses a line they shouldn't cross, but they work it out with no problems...(except of course Ares and Nyx...)

    Keep in mind that corgis do tend to demand that they be respected, and it could be that the beardie is showing submissive behaviors because he's reading the corgi in such a way that he understands it's his best response. The reason Tyr and Ares can be together is because Tyr throws a lot of submissive behaviors at Ares.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I also wouldn't intervene unless the beardie seemed bothered by it. I've noticed dogs often work things out between them by themselves.

    One related question I have is why everyone always assumes the ankle biting is related to herding behaviors. Is it usually? I have known a couple papillons that play in that manner as well. Summer actually nips at other dog's heels more than any herding breed we've ever had. Though she's never tried it with humans like Trey has.
     
  11. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I don't think it's at all exclusive to herding breeds, but it is common with herders. Just as bully breeds tend to push with their hips and shoulders and boxers tend to use their front feet to sort of box.
     
  12. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    Unless the beardie is really obviously worried by this, I wouldn't see it as a problem.

    You should see my Border Collies play! I don't have any dogs that like to "work" the other dogs, but they do chase each other around and they do a lot of biting.

    And I agree with Corgipower, I see a lot of herding dogs nip/nudge from behind to encourage another dog to play with them or, if the dog is already playing, to be a bit more lively.
     
  13. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I agree with this. When my friend got married, both she and her husband brought dogs into the mix, including a VERY alpha-female from each of them. The husband's female was clearly winning the alpha-war, and that upset my friend, who does most of the dog care. So she started manipulating things to keep her dog on top - feeding her first, giving her more priviledges, etc. The fights between the dogs got worse and worse, as the other female would 'sort things out' on her own at other times of the day. It wasn't until the owners accepted the order of things and treated the dogs accordingly that the fighting stopped completely.

    I also suspect (but clearly don't know) that some of the reason that you see the chasing/biting behavior in many dogs, but more specifically in herding dogs, is that people EXPECT it from herding dogs and therefore don't correct it. If someone's lab is running and grabbing at other dogs who are in the chase, it's "Oh my god, that dog is biting!" and the situation is handled. If a herding dog does, many people just think "look, it's herding!". Obviously that isn't all of it, but like I said, I expect it plays a part.
     
  14. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Perhaps.. but if everyone is having a good time why would I correct it (even in a lab)?

    Sport likes to run in front of the whippets and try to herd them (he likes to head them off and stare at them) Sometimes the whippets like this game... play dodge the BC.. othertimes they get annoyed and tell him off. As long as they are not being bullied I let them sort it out.

    The whippets are interesting. Their play style is very very low body contact. They hate body slamming.. so does that mean labs and other 'slammers' should be corrected for it-because some dogs don't like it? They like frantic running. (which pisses off the JRTs.....)
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I also never correct my dogs unless it's needed. My crew is very very loud and growly when they play and they like body slamming and the boys like play humping each other (much to my dismay). It often sounds like I have a pack of tasmanian devils running around the house, but if they're not being bothered by it, then I let it go. Them having fun would probably look like a fight to a lot of people.

    Summer has crossed the line once with her biting and Nard told her off for it and ended their game. She hasn't bitten him like that since though so I'm thinking Nard took care of it on his own. Occasionally Nard will really **** either Rose or Summer off and I will step in to stop him. He just doesn't know when to stop.

    I was just curious because on another forum they were discussing the nipping issue in relationship to herding dogs and calling it 'instinct' and the dogs trying to 'herd' other dogs. I just got to thinking of Summer and I'm not sure that's the case at all, at least some of the time. I doubt Summer is trying to 'herd' anything, she's not remotely a herding breed. If a bc was playing the way she did though, I'm sure people would pass it off as just 'herding behavior'. I agree they're more prone to the nippy play style but I think it's just that- play.
     
  16. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    depends on the dog.. there is nipping and then there is herding. Sport is more of a circle, crouch and nip (if the dog doesn't move) .. it not randomized chasing and biting heels.. its very obviously herding behaviour. Some people might call all chasing and heel biting herding behaviour.. and in a way it is.

    Herding traits had to come from somewhere.. who says Summer couldn't be good at it? Look at all the non herding breeds who get their HICs....
     
  17. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Whether it's a lab, a corgi, or any other breed doing it - if it's play, it's play. If one dog involved is clearly bothered by it and the other isn't getting that message, I might step in and redirect or have them take a break. If they're playing and having fun with each other, there's no situation to "handle".
     
  18. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    Any sort of play here where both dogs are happy I leave alone. If one dog looks bothered.. I'll step in. Doesn't matter if it is chase and run over the dog if they aren't fast enough, or a hump fest. As logn as everyone is still happy and playing.. They are left alone.
     
  19. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Lol, I suppose I could get some bunnies or something to practice with. ;)

    One observation I've made (can you tell this ankle nipping intrigues me?) is that Summer is much much much more deliberate than Trey about nipping. Trey is more of a 'Oh my god, it just moved' *nip* type dog. Summer crouches, stalks, and then nips. It's always well planned out. She's not motion sensitive like him though and doesn't go after inanimate moving objects. And she has never nipped at anything other than ankles and butts, whereas he has jumped up at dogs' faces before.

    She is such a weird little dog though.
     
  20. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Well, herding behavior is basically prey drive with a check in place to stop them from going for the kill. So any dog with prey drive can exhibit this behavior.

    Play is something dogs do for fun, but more importantly it's how they practice "real world" behaviors. Play fights, play chase, play stalking and hunting, etc. There's no reason why a non-herding breed can't exhibit chase and nip behaviors. I do find that some breeds have difficulty with other breeds - differences in play styles and they don't read each other as well.

    As for non-herding breeds doing herding, yup, it happens often. :) They might be able to chase, gather, drive, etc. The part that non-herding breeds might not be good at is species discrimination. For example, Ares had a choice between the horses that were in the middle of an open field and visible and 30 feet away or the cows who were out of sight, deep in the woods, and much further away. Ares didn't even look at the horses and headed straight for the cows.
     

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