Question about heritage/ethnicity

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by milos_mommy, Nov 10, 2012.

  1. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    You know, for all the *equality* that's supposed to be enforced by the government, those ethnic questions on forms don't do anything but ensure that it doesn't exist. If we're ever going to be considered on what we can do or our potential race/ethnic/gender questions on employment/education forms are going to have to go.
     
  2. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I'm not sure about government forms (don't fill out many of those) I meant just regular forms (doctors, surveys, standardized tests), college applications, job applications etc..etc..

    Most I know say African American-Black or some variance of.
    I just wish there were more boxes, especially a multi-race box or the option to check more than one. Heck I'd even take just a caribbean box lol don't even have to say which part.
     
  3. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    They actually do help. Those forms do help to ensure that people aren't receiving treatment differently based on their racial category, to determine where segregation is more prominent, and have many other beneficial uses.

    Unfortunately, using (and abusing) them to get government money isn't all that uncommon.
     
  4. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Most of the ones I've seen have a box for "Other." Not perfect, but better than being categorized so broadly.

    I know that's the theory, MM, but it manifestly doesn't work out that way :(
     
  5. zoe08

    zoe08 New Member

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    #1, I have taken a multicultural class.

    #2, I am probably the LEAST racist person here, because I believe if people want EQUALITY then they should get EQUALITY. That means not qualifying for special funds/scholarships/etc because of their race. People jump to "racism" conclusions when people actually do TREAT THEM EQUALLY. If a black person and a white person apply for the same position, but the white person gets it, the employer is immediately considered racist, because they didn't select the black person. Even if the white person had more experience and was a better fit for the position. Just like because I didn't vote for Obama last time, or this time, I am considered a racist. When no way no how would I have voted for him if he was 100% white. I would have voted the same way (republican), even if the republican candidates were black. However how many black people registered and voted for the FIRST time in the 2008 elections, just to vote for a black president, regardless of his policies? A LOT.

    I have been on the other end of racism, just because I am white does not mean I don't know what it is like to be a minority. I grew up in a school where there were more hispanic kids than white. Some of them legal, some of them not. I grew up being the one saying that my friends were not different than me. And I ended up being the one ditched in high school, and my best friend would no longer talk to me because her brother formed some "Brown Crowd" group where you could only speak Spanish and fly a Mexican flag.

    What disappoints me the most is that these kids want to be all "proud to be Mexican", not at all "proud to be American" when their parents have worked hard, many of them risking everything by coming to America illegally because they wanted their children to have a BETTER life. If Mexico was so great and awesome, than why did their parents bring them here or come here to have them?

    You ancestory is different from what you ARE. I have a great grandma directly from Germany, which I guess most of my mother's side is German. My dad's side is mostly Scottish. That doesn't make me a German-Scottish-American. I believe trying to differentiate everyone like that is going further away from the "EQUALITY" everyone so desperately says they want.

    It is great to be interested in your ancestory, I love to learn about that stuff, but that doesn't change that I am still an American, and I am proud to be American. My ancestors came here for a reason. And I am thankful to them, because of it, I am an American.

    America is a melting pot, the only way for everyone to be equal is for everyone to be American. The more we differentiate ourselves, the more chances for inequality in the workplace, etc. If we all start calling ourselves German/Irish/Scottish/etc Americans, well if the boss is German, he may be more likely to hire the person who writes down 'German American' even if they have no connection to Germany other than some great-great grandparents whom they have never met that were born there and brought to America as children.

    The main thing is that if you want to around spouting about how different you are, you shouldn't complain about inequality in the next sentence.
     
  6. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    I know my dad considers himself German American.

    His mother was German (born and raised in Manheim, her family is still there) he was born on an Army base in Germany but his father is American (from Virginia)

    I am American but english/scottish decent.

    Jeremy is French Canadian/??? decent but American.
     
  7. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    What exactly is a "multicultural class"? Like, what was the course summary or did the curriculum involve? Because I've never seen one offered and when I googled it nothing came up except material for teachers teaching classes of students of various races, and everything you said in your post is what any Race Studies class I've taken has taught me is a serious cause of racism in our country.

    The "I'm not racist, I think everyone should have equal rights" attitude, where it's claimed "well if everyone acted the same and ignored their differences and didn't throw their racial category into everything, there wouldn't be any problems."
     
  8. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Racism is not people being mean to you.
    -“I got bullied in school for being white. You can’t tell me that’s not racist!†No, this is called you being picked on by a mean child.
    - "Oh but he called me a cracker!" ...oh the name people came up because of the sound a whip makes? Please PLEASE tell me how that is the same thing as being called the N word. I DARE YOU.
    - "But people can be racist against white people too!"

    No, they cannot. There is an inherent logical fallacy in your argument that will never make it true. However, white people can be discrimated against. Discrimination is different from racism.
    Let’s start from the beginning. Your first step is to accept that being mean to someone because of their race is not what racism is
    Racism is when intolerance in government laws, attitudes, the justice system and ideals of a society are ingrained in a culture to the point where patterns of discrimination towards a certain race are institutionalized as normal. If you keep this in mind, you’ll understand that reverse racism doesn’t- and can’t- exist.

    and why is it white people are so scared to be a minority? "There are more _____ people than white people at ______!! BLASPHEMY!!"
    Is it because minorities are treated badly or something?
    lol who would've thought.

    [​IMG]

    Take a minute and wonder why people of color and minorities have scholarships and workplace incentives in the first place.
    If all was fair and every one was just american and people were making a big deal over nothing, wouldn't things just balance out naturally?
    Why are most universities STILL majority white? and yet people still kick a bit over affirmative action. Even with it, look around a typical university, even boasting their high diversity rates, take a moment and look at what race is still the norm. Think about, no matter how small of a fraction minorities represent at most universities, how they are seen.
    I have attended two universities in my life. I am literally pictured on the diversity pamphlet in their welcome packet for BOTH.

    Oh but please, continue to cry over the white guy that got passed over for the job because a minority got hired.
    Like that is SUCH a common scenario. I hear this argument all the time and frankly, I look around offices and companies, and think about how common it could possibly be. Does it happen? sure, lots of things happen.. but is it a more common occurence than the systematic racist views of businesses who will NOT hire a person of color due to racist stereotypes? Doubt it.

    I have never seen ANYONE give a second glance to an employer hiring somebody that was white. Nobody questions that choice. but hire someone of color when somebody white also applied? ..there must be something going on there. tax cuts? forced diversity?

    There are a lot of things I personally dislike about Affirmative Action but the thing that gets me the most is the notion that every moderately well off African-American individual is only moderately well off because of it. From President Obama, to Herman Cain, to Alan West there's this idiotic idea that these guys were handed everything and got to where they are because the system favors them. That they don't deserve what they have, they took high profile positions because of their skin and nothing more.

    After numerous studies shown that employers will not hire "black sounding" names with the same resume as more common "white" names, after 'Mud People loans', Redlining, disproportional conviction rates, sentencing rates, and poverty rates why do they feel the most victimized? It's pretty simple, what you're feeling isn't discrimination or "reverse racism". What you happen to be feeling is known as a loss of entitlement.

    Oh but "whinneee look at all the black people who voted for Obama because he was black". I'm sure there weren't people who voted for Romney because he wasn't.
    [​IMG]

    Please continue to tell me how hard it is to be a white man running for president of the united states.
    I mean, look at the history books! Look at all the minorities that were once presidents! It's so easy!!
    Oh but I forgot, black people vote for Obama because he's black. White people voted for him because of his economic policies and stance on equality.

    America is a melting pot. Melting pot =/= everyone just abiding by the culture that is most popular here. Everybody should be totally allowed to celebrate their heritage because THAT is what a true melting pot is.
    The argument of "I'm not racist. I just think we should have a melting pot where they should act like everyone else, then we wouldn't have a problem" is not a good one.

    I would love true equality.. I would love for race to not matter. but it does.
    The first step is recognizing that fact.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  9. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    I was going to comment on that, too, but decided to just leave it. Yeah, I'm sure having the other high school kids omit you from their "club" for being white was just as traumatizing for all those kids who couldn't walk down the street at night for fear of being arrested, or worse, shot by a police officer :rolleyes:
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I don't think that's true of all or even most white people. I certainly can't trace my family back to a specific country. Heck, I don't even know what I am. Too many orphans sent to orphanages. Too many native americans that didn't stay on tribal lands, so they're hard to identify too. Too many times they changed our last name. My surname truly just pops up in the US. They think it was originally German, but they don't know for sure. Too many racist people that wouldn't ever talk about certain ancestors. I know my grandma's dad was 'brown' (my eldest uncle was the only one to see him and he was a little kid). But we have no idea what kind of 'brown' he was.

    The only ones really traced well is my great-grandaddy Earp's side. And that's just because Wyatt Earp is famous. And then my mother's maiden name is definitely Scottish. And there's likely some English in there based on some last names.

    I've really tried to look into it and most the lines were dead ends. I do know a lot of my friends' families moved here a lot later than mine did so they can say for sure 'I am Swedish.' or 'I am Irish'.
     
  11. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    I call myself Metis, which I am in my moms side. My papa aka grandpa grew up in a very metis culture. On my dads side is Cree, Iroquois, and Scottish, my dad is a status Indian. My great, great grandmother Victoria Calahoo is a pretty famous Indian Woman in Alberta, you can even google her. I get teased a lot about having a Native American heritage by friends. I was called Whindian aka white Indian a lot in school by friends as a joke, it really does not bother me, unless people are being outright malicious and then I stand up for myself.

    People kinnda give me a weird look when I talk about my heritage as I don't really look the native American part, other than my dark hair and olive completion, my brother on the other hand looks the part, he was even born with brown eyes like most Indian babies.


    [​IMG]
     
  12. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    The thing about European immigrants is that records were kept. You can look up every boat that came over to Ellis Island and even when people's names were changed, you can find them on the records. Name, port of departure, country of origin, and it's all public record.

    Adoption records from a long time ago are mostly open or can be opened, especially if all the people involved are dead. My dad is half native. He was adopted. That was frickin hard to trace but we got that line back to the mid 1700s mostly because at some point his ancestors joined to Baptist church in Nova Scotia and there were records there.

    You're not going to find this stuff on the internet. A lot of it means traveling, spending hours walking through cemetaries, going through old church records. If I was to trace my family history back any further on the Greek side the records are there. I just need to learn to read Greek, travel overseas, and pour through paper records (or convince a relative to do it for me).

    That's a HUGE difference. In one case the records do exist. People had last names. They might have been changed but they did have last names. They were counted on the census. It might be a pain trying to trace them, but it's possible.

    That vs. an entire group of people whose history was erased. There was no records kept as to what tribe or even part of Africa a particular shipment of slaves was from. They had no last names. Their entire names were changed. And when they were freed a lot of them ended up taking their master's surname. That's not hard to trace. It's literally impossible.
     
  13. zoe08

    zoe08 New Member

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    We went over different cultures, languages, dialects, LGBT. I honestly can't remember the exact name of the class. It fulfilled my multicultural requirement in college.

    And that is freaking BS that white people are the only ones who are racist. Some people don't WANT to move forward because they want to continue playing the race card. That's just it either you want EQUALITY, or you DON'T.

    Definition of RACISM
    1
    : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2
    : racial prejudice or discrimination

    I do not believe the white people are superior. I do not believe any race is superior. I do NOT discriminate against ANY race. So I do not qualify for either definition of "racism". However a group of people just because they are not white, who think they are "supreme" are still racists. Yes a group of people who think they are better than white people, are racist against white people. If you discriminate against someone because of their race whether it is white against black, hispanic against white, asian against hispanic, whatever it is, if you are discriminating BECAUSE of the color of someone's skin, it is racism.


    And yes I imagine there are some people who voted against Obama because he was black, but I don't think any white people came out just to vote against him considering in 2008 there were about the same amount of white voters as in 2004. However there were more black, Asian, and Hispanic voters: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/us/politics/21vote.html?_r=0 You gonna tell me the fact that they were voting for a 'non-white' or a 'mixed race' had NOTHING to do with it?

    Everyone always wants to blame the white people.

    And as far as why there are more white students at universities:
    This didn't come up as a nice table, but according to the US census bureau, 78% of Americans are white, so to expect to see 50% of college students being other races, would not proportionately fit the population.

    White persons, percent definition and source info White persons, percent, 2011 (a) 78.1%
    Black persons, percent definition and source info Black persons, percent, 2011 (a) 13.1%
    American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent definition and source info American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2011 (a) 1.2%
    Asian persons, percent definition and source info Asian persons, percent, 2011 (a) 5.0%
    Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander persons, percent definition and source info Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander persons, percent, 2011 (a) 0.2%
    Persons reporting two or more races, percent definition and source info Persons reporting two or more races, percent, 2011 2.3%
    Persons of Hispanic or Latino Origin, percent definition and source info Persons of Hispanic or Latino Origin, percent, 2011 (b) 16.7%
    White persons not Hispanic, percent definition and source info White persons not Hispanic, percent, 2011 63.4%

    And you have to take into account the people that WANT and TRY to go to college. I don't think the college looks at the application and says, oh this person is black we are automatically not accepting them. I do believe that we have come a long way from that. Actually right now it is more likely that they will see the black checked on the application and accept them to meet diversity requirements even if they don't qualify in other ways. I just don't feel like that is equality. I do believe there should not be a race box. We should get into college based on grades/activities/ACT/SAT/etc. Our race should have NOTHING to do with it. That is what equality would be. When no matter what our race, we have the same opportunity based on the amount of work we are willing to put into something. That is how I believe it should be.
     
  14. milos_mommy

    milos_mommy Active Member

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    Lauren, I'm in a similar position. I know my maternal grandfather's heritage (his half-Iroquois, half-English mother married a Greek immigrant, who came here via Ellis Island), but that's about it. To figure out the French side of my grandmother, I had to trace back six or seven generations...of entirely illiterate farmers. It was not easy, but I finally discovered my great-great-great-grandmother and father came from France, and that their daughter had a VERY French name, until she changed it to something more American sounding.
     
  15. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Oh the poor poor white people.

    Frankly it greatly disturbs me how common this seems to be lately.

    Do people forget that we are 1 to 2 generations removed from segregation?
     
  16. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I understand it's not the same thing but I do think there's a lot of white americans that have no idea about the majority of their make up. Even if it is technically 'traceable', it might be very difficult or difficult enough that is effectively/practically impossible. This is what you said:

    Which I definitely don't have any direct links to any land and am not a member of any 'clan'. No one in my family has any such links. All I know is I'm likely a mostly European mutt.

    We've had some family members really try to dig in and figure it out but so far no one has found anything. My surname just appears in the southern US as far as anyone has found out so far. They're doing a family project to try to figure out if X last name is related to Y last name (there's about 4 variants that are scattered throughout the country). I haven't seen if anything came about from that yet but it would be interesting.

    I do know my dad's family has been in Texas forever. And I know I have some Irish and Scottish. Probably English and German. But I probably will never know the truth about my great grandfather. The people that know are going to go to their graves with it. I have a good guess about it but will likely never know. I'm happy enough with that and knowing we're bonafied Texans no matter what.

    It is much easier for my friends that have only been over in the US for a few generations to trace. The earp side is easier to trace, for example, because they came here a lot later than the people with my surname.
     
  17. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    black & dark meant evil or impure. the terms black irish & black dutch didn't exist as ethnonyms until the the expulsion of native american nations from the southeastern usa. the small farmers of native ancestry that could pass & chose to stay adopted celtic & germanic surnames. since the expulsion was conducted primarily at the behest of wealthy business men seeking control of native plantations & mineral wealthy, in the hills & "hollers" the pioneers helped protect the identity of the neighbors they respected & lived with as freinds (and even relations). the terms were also picked up by mixed race people passing for white. this information was in family records throughout the appalachian south but was not discussed or even denied until hollywood made the noble savage cool in the late 60s & 70s. when it became politically advantageous to do so whole communities in the southeast stopped being black irish & black dutch and became lumbee, monacan, pamunky etc.
    the whole point of obregon, was to remind people of the fact that people have ALWAYS been moving around and that new ethnicities are created as people intermingle in an area and develope a homgeneous cultural identity. and that ethnicity & nationality are NOT necessarily the same thing. further tha it is generally inappropriate for one person to try to decide another group's ethnicity for them. it is both presumptuous & preposterous as it leads to stupidity like what used to exist here in the USA where ALL native nations were treated as a single ethnicity.
     
  18. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    i generally check the box refusing to identify.
     
  19. CaliTerp07

    CaliTerp07 New Member

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    Recently I realized just how privileged I am to be a white person. I went to vote on Tuesday, and I had two registration cards--one in my maiden name, and one in my married name. I handed the lady my married card, and she said I didn't exist in the system. I handed her the maiden name, and she found me and just smiled, congratulated me on my marriage (which was uh, 4.5 years ago) and sent me on my way.

    Had I been a middle eastern male or a Spanish speaker with limited English, I am fairly certain they would not have been as cheerful sorting out the issue.
     
  20. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    that's not true. they were merchandise and very detailed records were kept of purchases, losses & sales. in the case of the very earliest africans that were treated like indentured servants and freed & paid after 7 years, some repatriated & became slavers and others stayed and became slaveholders but sent back to africa for brides from their own people. for later slave bills of sale & other business records allow their ancestors' travels to be traced. so for SOME families, IF they have the records still the information is there. for other families the records simply don't exist for a variety of reasons including the union army's wholesale burning of plantations & cities.
     

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