Question about contracts

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by AliciaD, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    My wife and I already decided to spay our bitch... our breeder took 7 months to grant us permission to spay her (required my the contract to be discussed...) and she still refuses to sign the dog over to us.

    My friend who owns a littermate did all his health testing, selected a stud dog, generating a waiting list of very well qualified homes, and is not able to breed because the breeder refuses to remove herself from co-ownership and implied that she wouldn't allow any litter to be registered.

    We both had this confrontation and issue this year... when the breeder has a litter recently born from her holdback from the same litter.
     
  2. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Thats pretty ignorant and negative, IMO
     
  3. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    That's pretty much what my breeder did, though, so I see that as a valid perspective...

    I just posted above that my breeder took 7 months to grant permission to spay my bitch... during this conflict, I was asked to test heart/hips/eyes and I declined to do so. My understanding is that they haven't health tested the bitch they bred this year that is a sibling to mine, so they actually planned to use my health testing as a feather in their cap (plus my showing my dog to championship 2 years prior, which was supposed to have removed co-ownership).
     
  4. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Was more referring to the blanket statement that one should look for a breeder that demands alters over breeding rights, and that unless heavy titling is done, theyre just being moneyhungry and greedy. ANY breeder who has been around for more than a hot minute doesnt NEED a title to tell them what their eyes and hands will
     
  5. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    Agree with you there... in addition I'm against early spay/neuter, but that's another discussion altogether.
     
  6. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I trust Merlin's breeder 100%
    I would have signed a contract saying she could stud him out and I'd be fine with her picking out the other dog. She knows his lines, breeding etc.. more than I ever will and I of course trust her
    (I mean she makes awesome dogs.. obviously :p )

    THAT SAID: I am with Shai when she said, I don't like it being a dictatorship, as his owner and caregiver, I do feel like I should be part of the discussion.
    I don't necessarily have to have veto power or anything, but I want to be involved.
    Of course she knows more about his lines and breeding etc.. but I live with him. I could and should provide insight on his strengths/weaknesses temperament wise.

    and unless they are paying for him to be "collected & frozen & shipped" ...he's my dog, I 1000000% get to say where he goes, where he stays, and who he stays with.
    I trust his breeder and of course he would stay with her but I would never allow another breeder to babysit him for studding or whatever.
     
  7. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    I dont think iv EVER heard of a stud animal of any species going to the female. the female always goes to the male :) so YOU would be the one maybe babysitting somebodies bitch XD
     
  8. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    In that case.. hell no LOL
    I have no interesting in baby sitting my hormonal crazy boy and watching two dogs get it on all over my house.

    If that's the case then no way.
     
  9. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    A breeder can only care for so many dogs. Selling a potential breeding dog is a way of giving a dog a good home with out loosing the potential great genetics.

    I don't know of anyone who owns a intact male that the breeder has bred from actually do the breeding at the pet homes house. Most of the time the male goes back to the breeders house and its done there. This is why collection. Is a great tool as well, when it can be used
     
  10. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Yeah, there's honestly a lot more to it than just letting them go at it. Especially if they're inexperienced. Sometimes the bitch freaks out when the tie actually happens (I imagine it can hurt, just like any female for the first time), and the male is basically stuck in her until the tie ends and that can take half an hour or so. It's important for an experienced person to be present to make sure both dogs stay calm and there isn't any fighting after the tie. Among other things.

    The mechanics of dog breeding seem like they'd be the easiest thing ever, but it's not.
     
  11. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Not knowing your breeder, they could be a poo head. But there are valid reasons for some things.

    They may have wanted to make sure the breeding from their hold back was going to take before spaying her litter sisters. A lot of things can go wrong in a breeding, and there are a lot of problems that can prevent a bitch from being able to get pregnant that are difficult/impossible to screen for.

    Or they might be controlling.

    And not knowing what your friend's contract says, it's really hard to pass any judgement on that situation. I've sold puppies from a litter. Some of those girls are nice enough to show and finish, but not the best examples of the litter and I don't want them bred/would never sign off on a litter out of them.

    If I knew a puppy buyer was actively planning a litter when I expressly didn't want a bitch bred, heck yes I would never remove myself from a co ownership of that dog or allow the litter to be registered.

    Also, breeders should know their lines and the other lines in the breed pretty well. There are some gorgeous borzoi lines out there I would never allow a dog I owned/co owned to be bred to because of not very obvious issues, like cancer, bloat, missing teeth, genetic shyness, structural problems, etc. If your friend was picking a stud without the breeder's input, it's definitely possible they're trying to match non compatible lines without realizing it and the breeder is trying prevent bringing health problems into their lines.

    That said, if your contract says ownership would be signed over after her spay, I really don't see a reason for them not to. :-/ And I'm not saying that these are your breeder's motivations, just that sometimes breeders do have legitimate reasons for the decisions they make on co ownerships, even if the other half of the co ownership can't see it or doesn't agree.
     
  12. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    Both of us had the same contract, co-ownership till championship. In my case, the terms were met over 2 years prior (actually, at this point, it's approaching 3 years... it was 2 years when we asked for permission to spay, and then 7 months of fighting for permission to spay I finally said "oh yeah, what about ownership" and the breeder refused)

    And my reason for spaying was health and temperament concerns. So there was no chance in hell our bitch was going to be bred. To tell us we had to do health testing first was just for the breeders benefit, not ours and not our dogs...
     
  13. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Give me a puppy, I might give you some say in what happens to it later. If I pay for it, it's mine. I don't care who the breeder is. I don't know how they convince people to sign these ridiculous things when they buy a puppy.
     
  14. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    This.... I wouldn't buy from a breeder who made a claim on my dog, unless I was fully in support of it and it benefited me and/or my dog.

    The only thing I'm happy to be dictated to about is breeding rights. As in a clause stating pups can't be registered unless breeder lifts that clause, usually after achieving some working or show championship and having health tests. I think breeders should protect their lines, so that's fair enough.

    But my dog is my dog, I wouldn't feel happy as them being used as a stud or brood bitch unless that was MY decision.

    There's enough good dogs out there without silly clauses like that.... And if the dogs that much of a great prospect, a co-own with a like minded person is the way to go. Not dictate to a normal puppy buyer.
     
  15. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    It depends on what the specific concerns were, but the breeder may have had her reasons for not wanting her spayed. When Logan was a derpy(er) teenager, I REALLY wanted to neuter him. And his breeder just sort of ignored my testicle vents, presumably knowing he's grow out of it. And today he's one fine, not-hormone-driven, intact dog that can even work well around bitches in heat. I am SO GLAD his breeder was never like "Okay, then chop his balls off!" because I feel like I have a healthier dog for having testicles. And I can still show him.

    There was also a study released recently that says altered dogs are more aggressive, more fearful, more excitable, and less trainable than intact dogs. I'd tread VERY carefully when choosing to alter a dog for behavior reasons. Even health reasons can be VERY iffy unless it directly related to their reproductive organs (like emergency spay for pyo).

    http://www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf

    Again, I don't know your breeder, but sometimes they have good reasons for things. I trust Logan's breeder/co-owner 100%.
     
  16. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    Reactive, bad false pregnancies, food allergies... all of which were observed in our bitch and in littermates from 2 breedings of the same parents, plus cancer in the line.... we would never breed our dog as a result. We wanted to spay because of the false pregnancies, once we decided there was no chance in hell we'd be breeding, and our dog was pretty much fully mature at 4 years old, we thought it would be appropriate/responsible to eliminate the physical discomfort of the false pregnancies.
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Since when do BYBers care about the hard work of health testing and titles, even if they are able to "scam" someone into it?

    There's nothing new about co ownership contracts requiring certain things. If you want one of my best dogs, I expect you to do certain things with it. I also expect to be able to have access to it to continue my line if it turns out the way I hope it will.

    And litter of moneymakers!?! BUAHAHAHAHAHA.

    I just spent $1200 trying to get my dog pregnant. She did not get pregnant. I'm out $1200.

    The last litter she had, I spent $1200 getting her pregnant. Then $80 for an xray, and $1300 for a c section. The stud fee was $1000 or a puppy, they picked a puppy. I spent over $800 in food just for the puppies (1 40 lb of kibble every other day from 6 weeks to 12 weeks. :eek: ).

    That is the absolute bare minimum to keep everybody alive long enough to sell. It doesn't even take into account the cost of 3 shots per puppy. Microchips for every puppy. Oh yeah, and antibiotics and checkups and all that stuff. Then the litter registration. We also ate the cost of registering them individually with the AKC. And the week I had to take off work to poop the puppies every couple of hours because mom was too high on stuff from the c-section surgery to do it herself so all those lost wages (another $400). Plus all of mom's health testing.

    Luckily there was enough puppies to break even. If there was only one or two? We'd be screwed. There wouldn't be enough left over to even cover the cost of the surgical implant, much less the c-section and stud fee. There is so much cost involved in breeding and raising a litter that even if you're only providing the bare minimum you're probably going to lose money.

    I just ran into an English sheepdog breeder at the vet whose bitch had to go in for a c-section. They lost all the puppies but one, from frozen semen shipped in from Europe. The conception and birth of that one puppy put them out $10,000. He hasn't even incurred all the expenses of being raised yet.

    There are lots of ways to get dogs. If you're expecting a breeder to let you have one of their top picks, expect them to want access to it to continue their line. If you want an altered companion, don't sign a contract agreeing to campaign your dog and give the breeder breeding rights. Get a dog somewhere else. A different breeder, a rescue, a shelter, etc.

    There probably are folks out there who think they'll make lots of $$$ by farming out intact dogs and breeding them. They won't be at it for long, because it won't make them money.

    EDIT: I should also say, never ever co own with somebody you don't trust. Talk to other people who have co owned a dog with that person and see what their experience was. Some people are control freaks. Personally, as long as the dog is being taken care of and the people aren't breeding it all over the place I'm happy. If I really want a say in what happens to a dog down the road I'm not going to place it with a stranger. It's going to a close friend, family member, or I'm keeping it.

    For the most part I'd be happy to let the puppies I've placed get neutered now that they're done growing though. If the decision was made for a health or temperament reason, I would really like them to let me know one of my puppies was having issues, just for my own knowledge about the line.
     
  18. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Just to share my own experience, I own a male who I am showing, and he may or may not be bred. In my contract he must be finished and have appropriate health testing before breeding, but whether he is bred or not is up to me. Now, I do know that his breeder is hoping to breed to him, or have her friends breed to him, and I trust them to know his lines and pick an appropriate female, but it's still my decision. If someone else approached me about breeding I would talk to his breeder first before deciding. She's been in the breed for 30 years and knows what she's doing. I own him outright and could decide to neuter if I wanted, though I doubt I ever will. Most nice males seem to be in a similar situation - owned by one person, rather than co-owned.

    Really nice females in my breed are almost always co-owned. Watson's mother is owned by her breeder, Watson's breeder, and another woman (who the dog actually lives with). The other woman and Watson's breeder have both had litters out of her now; not sure if her own breeder is planning to breed her or not. But that's a pretty typical situation.
     
  19. HayleyMarie

    HayleyMarie Like a bat outa' hell

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    I have an agreement with my breeder to keep Panzer intact and if he matures nicely and passes all the health testing (that the breeder pays for) then the breeder can use him as a stud. Plus the breeder will have to pay for other cost that goes with breeder Panzer, unless other wise agreed. Its hard for breeders to keep lots of large mastiffs in their home. I still own Panzer outright 100% and if I decided not to let the breeder use him I could decide not to since there is nothing in the contract stating that, nor would I sign a contract stating the breeder can use him no matter what. I will want to make sure Panzer is set up with a comparable female. And I do trust the breeders 100%
     
  20. Gypsydals

    Gypsydals New Member

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    I had to go digging for Ivans contract. LOL Keep in mind his is a co-owned contract. It states that his breeder has the right to use him free of charge for breeding to her own girls. Any girls not owned by her she has the right to say no to the breeding. Which I am fine with that, she knows more about breeding, showing and other lines than I do. And with all of that, I did not pay full price for him nor would I have. With all that being said, he is 8 1/2 and has never been bred. She tried to use him once on her only bitch not super close in pedigrees and the bitch had conception problems.
    We shall see what puppy contract #2 from the same breeder will be like. I have a pretty good idea what its going to be as we have briefly talked about it. But nothing has been written out yet.
    Last year I turned down a very very nice girl from a breeding I really liked. Why?? Because I did not like the strings attached to it. They wanted me to pay full price for the puppy on co-own with 3 options.
    1. Stud of their picking and they get her for the litter and the WHOLE litter.
    2. Stud of their picking with the litter being split 50/50
    or 3. Stud of their picking with 2 puppy backs out of the litter.

    No where did I see any of those options would benefit me in anyway. Other than the fact, I would have basically paid for that girl a minimum of 3 times. I just couldn't justify that price tag. I don't mind paying for a dog, but if there are conditions attached to me purchasing the dog, give me an incentive to purchase the dog.
     

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