Question about contracts

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by AliciaD, Aug 5, 2013.

  1. AliciaD

    AliciaD On second thought...

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    As I am fantasy breeder hunting I have looked at a few contracts that were readily available on the breeders websites and I've noticed 3 contracts stated that they reserve the right to breed any of their bitches to any stud worthy dog at no cost.

    I don't know... I just feel like after two years of showing or working the dog, getting him health tested, making sure that breeding him betters the breed etc etc that yeah, its great and all that you bred him, but no you cannot breed whatever bitch you want to him. He's my dog, I put in a lot of time, work, energy, and money to make sure he is breed worthy.

    But then again, my two dogs are rescues and their contracts were basically "you must neuter" so I don't really have any experience with contracts. Is this weird?

    I mean you would hope that you would like your breeder, their dogs, and their breeding program enough that studding wouldn't be some great pain- but to sign a contract saying that you can't refuse just squicks me out.
     
  2. meepitsmeagan

    meepitsmeagan Meagan & The Cattle Dog Crew

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    That seems weird to me. I mean, unless it's co owned I've never heard of that. Normally they will have a certain time period in which you must get them neutered/spayed... I guess if you were thinking about breeding yourself you would go for the breeding contract. I don't know. Maybe I'm sheltered.
     
  3. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Practices vary somewhat by breed by yeah that would raise a flag for me. Heck, Mira's a co-own and her contract still isn't nearly as one-sided or heavy-handed as that.

    Now for a male puppy having "free" breed back rights is more common, usually a set number, but I'd still want some say in the situation.
     
  4. SevenSins

    SevenSins APBTs & One Crazy Banana

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    Doesn't raise a red flag to me at all. As a breeder, we only have so much room and so many dogs we can reasonably spend enough time with in the day, train, show, and work. And as a breeder, it doesn't do much good for your breeding program if all of those "spots" are filled with males. It isn't easy to use a bitch in your own breeding program once you place her in another home, nor is it responsible to place one on a contract *requiring* the owner to breed that bitch, except in very specific circumstances. It's much easier to breed a litter for yourself, keep your pick bitch, and place the nicest males in the litter on contracts that allow you to wait those dogs out, see how nice they are, see how they perform, and either use them or collect them for use later down the line in your breeding program. And if it's a responsible, ethical breeder, that breeder is going to have more knowledge of their own lines and have more time, money, experience, effort and research invested in producing that dog than the owner could even begin to hold a candle to. Just because a male is placed on a contract that enables the breeder to use him freely, doesn't mean they're going to breed the hell out of him, or even ever breed to him at all. This is where thoroughly researching and trusting the breeder you get your dog from and carefully reading a contract comes in to play, but having a "it's my toy now and I'm not sharing" attitude from the beginning tells me that you're going to have a fairly limited amount of quality breeders to choose from, especially if you don't already have years of experience in the breed you're looking at. Tell me... Why would I, as a breeder, want to essentially, genetically "throw away" the nicest male in a litter to someone that doesn't respect me and the effort I've put into my breeding program?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  5. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    For clarity -- I read the OP as applying to any dog from these breeders, not just males. Upon a re-read, it looks like maybe this contract is specific to male puppies? In which case I have less of an issue with it.

    I prefer bitches as a rule and so automatically thought in terms of having my girl pup taken back for breeding whenever the breeder wanted, which would be absurdin most circumstances especially for a performance dog.
     
  6. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I certainly don't think that if I A) paid full "purchase price" for a puppy that the breeder should get to use the dog free of charge (male or female); B) I don't get any say in the choice of mate, I should be required to allow the breeding.

    But then again, I don't trust very many people with intact dogs.
     
  7. SevenSins

    SevenSins APBTs & One Crazy Banana

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    Why? I'm only considering males in my replies for the reasons I mentioned in my first, by the way. You specifically mention that they shouldn't be able to do it "free of charge." So you're saying that you'd be fine with it if the breeder was paying you a stud fee to use a dog they've already put thousands of dollars into producing, to produce a litter to improve their breeding program further, and likely won't see a cent or profit from? Chances are, the dog you bought came from such an arrangement in the first place.

    Again, why? If you did your homework and actually picked a trustworthy, responsible and ethical breeder to get your dog from, wouldn't you assume that the breeder you picked was knowledgeable enough to make appropriate breeding decisions for their breeding program without the input of perhaps a less experienced owner that wanted a dog for sport but doesn't necessarily have the knowledge of bloodlines and pedigrees, structure and biomechanics, and the long term goals of the breeder's program?
     
  8. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I appreciate a good breeder as much as the next, but some are just ****ing obnoxious and think far, far to highly of themselves. If you paid thousands to breed your puppies but can't afford a stud fee, then maybe you're in the wrong business :D

    i'm sure breeders like that are in no short supply of suckers to sell to, but I wouldn't be one of them in that situation. I'm sorry, if I pay for a puppy or dog, it is mine. Now if you want to give me a puppy and train and title and have a bit of input on any future breeding, i'm cool with that. I do it all the time with people I know.
     
  9. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I co-own Logan, and his breeder can use him as a stud if she wants to. Do I think she ever will? No, but she has the option. Am I okay with that? Yes, yes I am. It's easy to ship semen. My breeder knows what she's doing, and I have complete confidence that if she DID want to breed Logan, she would choose the right bitch for him, and not just breed for the sake of breeding. So, with my chosen breeder, I would be fine with that contract.

    I guess my point is that you MUST trust your breeder. If you think your breeder will breed any bitch to any dog just for the sake of having puppies, you probably shouldn't choose that breeder to begin with, regardless of what their contract is like.
     
  10. JessLough

    JessLough Love My Mutt

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    Would I buy from a breeder with a contract like that? Nope. Not unless a good friend happened to be breeding.

    But, there are other breeders out there, and I'm confident I could find one I liked without that stipulation.

    Do I think it's wrong? Nope. They want to breed the dogs, they can put anything they want in the contract. Just not for me.
     
  11. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    If you did your homework and placed your breeding potential dog in a trustworthy, responsible, and ethical home that is knowledgeable enough to raise, train, and prove out the dog in an appropriate fashion, doesn't it seem reasonable to allow them some say in whether the dog is used to perpetuate the breed, to a degree that reflects their knowledge? After all, you know the lines, but they know the dog, and if there is a compelling reason to not breed the dog they, having thousands of dollar likely invested in the individual, could well deserve to weigh in.

    It's a relationship that, from what I've seen, works best when based on mutual respect and honest communication. When one player holds all the cards, unilateral decisions and a combative relationship seems far more likely.

    Then again, I'm in the "it takes a village" camp. Playing king for the day never really appealed to me.
     
  12. SevenSins

    SevenSins APBTs & One Crazy Banana

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    Except that, as the person looking for a puppy, you have the advantage of actually being able to get to know and research your breeder long...long before you ever get one, if you so choose. As a breeder, I don't have the luxury of having a magical ball that tells me how many puppies I'm going to have and who is going to be applying for those puppies when I plan a breeding for X months from now. I have a much more strict "time limit" on how well I can get to know you on a personal level and make a judgement call. That's what contracts are for, and a good one will always do more than protect the breeder's interests.

    Weighing in about there being an issue serious enough that should cause the dog to not be worthy of being bred at all, and weighing in on a decision the breeder is making to breed that dog to a particular bitch that they own, are two completely different matters all together.

    Scenario... Sally comes to me when I advertise my upcoming litter a couple months prior to breeding. She has said and done everything correctly on the application process, she wants a dog who she can take out and be competitive in multiple show and working events, and I pick out a male puppy who I think would be perfectly suited to her needs and lifestyle. I have a few males on my yard already, and decide to keep the best bitch puppy in the litter for myself. Sally gives me her word that she trusts my judgement as the breeder, and all I have to do is ask if I want to use him in the future. I believe her, because in the few months we've been talking, she's always seemed nice and trustworthy. This male puppy turns out to be the nicest, most balanced dog I've ever produced, and his temperament and drive are the epitome of what my breed should be. Meanwhile, my pick from the litter contracts pyometra and is spayed. I decide when this male puppy is 3 years old that I want to breed him back to his own dam for her last litter in order to genetically strengthen certain attributes from her side of the pedigree in order to set myself up to do a well planned outcross in the future. The owner says, "NO! I'm against inbreeding and I refuse." Without a contract, my breeding program would be floating down sh!t creek right about then... And THAT is why I have a clause in my contract that gives me the right to use or collect a male I produced.
     
  13. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    And leaving your breeding rights to a buyer's whim, and having contractual rights to breed whatever you want to the dog whenever you want as often as you want for the lifetime of the dog are two completely different things altogether.

    My point was simply that there is room for a consensual middle ground that protects the breeder's interests while also giving at least a nod to the input and interests of the dog's owner/trainer. Hence my original example of having, for instance, the right to a set number of breedings (three seems to be common in breeds I've considered). Doesn't mean you can't get more than that if the owner agrees but it just sets some boundaries.

    I mean, I get it. There is a reason I am missing what will likely be our only chance at Nationals while Mira is in her prime, and definitely Webster's only chance at Nationals, in order to breed, whelp, and raise a litter from which I may not even keep a puppy, due to timing. I believe in her breeders' program, I respect what they are doing, and the future of their line and the contribution they make to the breed is more important than me playing at Nationals for a week. And I really, really want to take a go a Nationals.

    I just don't think the answer for most contracts is "I can breed what I want when I want as long as I want as many times as I want and you will accommodate me or die trying." Which, though not phrased so harshly, is the way some seem to be set up. A breeder may well miss out on great homes that way. I know they'd miss out on mine, which overall I think is a pretty good one.

    You can protect breeder rights without going that far with it.
     
  14. AliciaD

    AliciaD On second thought...

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    Thanks for all the replies! A lot of different points of view. :)

    I feel like I wouldn't be squicked if there was a limit- like 3 times or whatever. Or if the breeder was like "would it be cool if I bred a couple of nice bitches to Fido should he be breed worthy?"

    With the ease of shipping sperm and whatnot it doesn't seem like a big deal- but I'm not familiar with the cost of such things.

    And I figure the chances of a breeder taking the owner up on it may be fairly slim too.

    I understand that a breeder is taking a risk by placing a puppy with me, and are far more experienced than I and that I must like their breeding program if I got a puppy from then.

    I don't know- I'll have to think about this more. I just thought it was curious because I had never seen that before and then all of a sudden I was seeing it in quite a few contracts.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  15. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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  16. AliciaD

    AliciaD On second thought...

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    Thanks for the response.

    I'm sure if I was actually puppy hunting and not just looking at breeders' contracts there would be an actual conversation and not just me being like "wha? Is this a thing?"
     
  17. meepitsmeagan

    meepitsmeagan Meagan & The Cattle Dog Crew

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    I've found this to be pretty true. My breeder and I have made some changes to my contract to accommodate a few things I wanted, such as being able to keep my future male intact until he is two.
     
  18. Zoo

    Zoo New Member

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    I bought a dog on a show contract that listed co-ownership till championship. I am also friends with another owner of a dog from this litter. Both of us finished our dogs championships, years ago in my case, neither of us fully own our dogs to this day. The breeder prides herself on producing the most champion dogs of any breeder in this country, now we know how it happened, she holds ownership over the heads of her buyers, and then never signs the dogs over so that no one else can ever breed the dogs that they just showed until championship....
     
  19. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    I co-owned the bitch that was the "foundation bitch" for my (very limited) breeding program. That breeder chooses to co-own all her pups until they are altered, so they can't be bred indiscriminately. Though in my case, I also didn't pay for the pup.

    I hadn't intended to breed her, but when she was a few years old, started thinking about it. I talked with her breeder, and she was okay with the idea, suggested a stud, actually provided the semen (she had some frozen, it was a foreign dog), and since there was only one live pup, I didn't pay a stud fee. I then spayed the bitch, which meant I could have taken her off the co-ownership, but I never did, since I didn't see how it would serve me to do so. Seemed like unnecessary expense and effort.

    FWIW, I also co-own that bitch's grandson- my dog, Pirate- with the same breeder. I offered the co-ownership as a courtesy, since she was supposed to get a pup from the litter (provided the stud), but decided she didn't want the pup that was available. I just took Pirate in for collection to be shipped to inseminate a bitch at his co-owner's request. The bitch was supposed to be bred by Pirate's sire, but the collection of his that was sent was of such poor quality that I was asked if I could get a collection done on Pirate.

    There's no contract in this case, just courtesy between friends. But it's an example of another case where a breeder might want to use a quality dog they've produced and placed. If for some reason, the dogs they've been intending to use, turn out to not be able to do the job, the breeder may want to turn to a close relative.
     
  20. MoparStar

    MoparStar Try not; DO or do not

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    I would never agree to that condition

    Unless the dog is to be competed and proven on bench or in field, then they are simply trying the newest scam in BYB land: Let everyone else do all the hard work and incur all of the expense and whenever we want we can have a litter of moneymakers!


    Not a great practice IMO. Select a breeder that requires the dog to be altered, not bred.
     

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