Question 1. Do you use verbal corrections

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Laurelin, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Okay I have two questions based on conversations on another forum.

    1. Do you use verbal corrections or a no reward marker. Why? Why not?

    I have realized I don't in a 'training situation' but in every day life I do and Mia seems to pick up on what it means. 'Eh eh' means stop what you're doing. Example, I told Mia to stay while I threw the ball and she broke the stay. an 'eh eh' and she stopped dead in her tracks and waited for the release.

    I don't realize I'm doing it all so much but I do give a lot of both positive and negative feedback to her in particular. Summer not so much because she's perfect. :p

    I guess in a purely positive method for the previous situation I would have instead told Mia to down/stay?
     
  2. Linds

    Linds Twin 2

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    Yes and no. During real life anything goes pretty much. I've given rather hard collar corrections, yelled at and picked up by the scruff Traveler in real world situations. During training I draw the line at a none reward marking and sometimes a ear flick for attention getting.

    But yeah, to use your example when Traveler breaks a stay I will go "HEY! Get back!" more times than not

    I've been trying really hard to cut back on non-reward marking with Traveler. I think I use it too much.

    With Didgie so far I've only used a NRM for things I think she really does know. But if I have to use it more than twice in a session for one cue I stop and back track.

    And so far the only really correction she's got is some yelling "DIDGIE! DON"T TOUCH THAT!!" or scruffed and thrown into the wall for hanging off my leg/arm. Ok, not really, but scruffed and tossed did happen. But that's not verbal ;)
     
  3. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Yup, I do. Once they learn what it means, it's a handy shorthand. I especially use it when we're mushing since it's a real PITA to, for example, have to stop and turn around if they turn the wrong way. Much nicer to interrupt a wrong turn with EH EH, [I SAID] GEE!

    I also use it around the house a lot for manners, leave it, stuff like that. I don't really intentionally train it, but like you I just use it so much and follow up with practicing whatever different thing I want them to do instead that they seem to just pick it up.
     
  4. houlahoops

    houlahoops New Member

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    I'm not actually sure what a no-reward marker is.

    I do use a verbal correction during training, but usually it's just a spoken "no, sir" to let the dog know that he's thinking in the wrong direction. In real life, I do use a lot more correction than I would in a controlled setting.

    I have used physical corrections in charged situations, the worst of it being a scruff or a solid leash pop. I also suck at training "quiet" and often end up in shouting matches with one dog or all of them as they roar around the house and bump into things.
     
  5. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    An NRM is basically what you've said. "Nope, that's not it"

    I also suck at teaching quiet and have shouting matches with Knox and Ozzy. They're much better at winning than I am :p but I have thumbs and know how to use both crate latches and can openers so I always win.

    I have give both firm verbal and physical corrections. Ozzy and Knox are the two that I have to get physical with. They don't respect my personal bubble very much, and combine that with higher drive, higher threshold for pain and less brains, they can and have hurt me seriously. Knox layed my arm open going after the ball and being careless with me. I layed right back into him. Mostly out of shock and surprise and defense, but I wasn't thinking about positive interaction at that point. I was bleeding everywhere and in pain. :p

    So yes, in answer to your question :p (also have a ugly scar on my arm from the jerk)
     
  6. Southpaw

    Southpaw orange iguanas.

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    Absolutely. I don't use NRMs in training because... well, it's training. If you don't do it right, you just don't get a reward.

    But in every day life, yeah. "Eh eh" and "no". Never actually taught a response to those but she is super respondent to them and instantly stops in her tracks.

    I don't mind doing it at all. I like my dogs to get rewarded for doing the right things but I also want it clear to them what isn't allowed as well.
     
  7. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    Yes I use verbal corrections. Yes I probably would have handled the breaking of the down stay differently than you did.

    I probably wouldn't have introduced the ball until the phase where I was proofing the command on a 5-10 minute basis.
     
  8. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I do sometimes. I usually use a sharp "hey" as a conditioned punisher. I've paired it with a collar correction in the past and it usually just snaps her out of it.
     
  9. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    NRM, yes, more with Gusto than Meg. Meg couldn't handle them at all for a long time. I can now use them, although she doesn't need it often.

    Gusto will get stuck repeating the same behavior over and over, and angry he isn't getting rewarded. "Try again!" usually breaks him out of the pattern.
     
  10. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I use a positive interrupter. I learned how to teach it off kikopup and it works VERY well for Romeo and my mom's Bichons (who are very soft dogs).
    It isn't a NO/isn't negative, but more of a "hey look at me and stop what you are doing"

    We use it almost all the time. To stop them from doing something wrong, stop pulling etc.. and it works MUCH better then yelling/NO! ever did.

    BUT big BUT here.. I know this doesn't work for all dogs in my experience. My mom's afghan hound does NOT do well with the positive interrupter. She is a tough independent thinking dog and will push buttons and test her limits/use the positive interrupter to her advantage (aka: do something/pretend to do something she knows is wrong on purpose, wait for the noise, and come wait for her treat for stopping)
    especially when she goes into prey drive mode, she needs something stronger..we use the "EH!" or "STOP THAT!" or even a leash pop to snap her out of it when she is really in "the zone".
    I hate to use leash corrections and normally NEVER would..but she has a very strong prey drive and when she starts her chase/stalking behavior..it's all over.
    She is NOT a typically obedient dog. She does everything she does for her advantage and if you didn't teach her the cue for NO THAT IS NOT AN OPTION STOP IT RIGHT NOW she would certainly just do whatever she wanted.
     
  11. Taqroy

    Taqroy Active Member

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    I do. I use a NRM ("cold" or "try again") in training, once they know how to shape, or have a good knowledge of the behavior. If I have to use it more than twice I drop criteria. In real life it varies from "WTF ARE YOU DOING" to "NO" to "EH-EH". I also get into yelling matches with my dogs (which they generally win lol). Mu and Tipper will sit in their crates and go "oof", "OOF", "bark", "BARK" and as far as I can tell they will do that until the end of time. It's very irritating.

    I have scruffed Greta for biting me - more out of reaction than planning. When we first got her she wouldn't stop going after your hands if you verbally corrected her. She's much better now and has learned that as soon as her teeth hit my hand she's either going on tie down or in the crate. Once I changed my reaction to the behavior we got along a lot better. I use verbal reminders with her too - "Not yours" is the main one and I usually follow it up by grabbing something that is hers and playing with her.
     
  12. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    In real life situations I use verbal corrections ("NO" and various obscenities) and in training I use no-reward markers ("uh oh!" or "try again"). For clients' dogs, I even skipped NRMs until the dogs were clicker pros.

    I've scruffed my dog, picked her up and thrown her, thrown my leg out to stop her and kicked her in the face, etc. in situations where I had to think fast for her safety or the safety of another living thing. Hasn't impacted her too much, our positive interactions outweigh the negative 99.9 to .1.
     
  13. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    I don't use verbal correction for any training type situation. If he breaks a sit I just ask again or body block him until he sits again.
    I don't intentionally use any NRMs, but I do sometimes say "nope" or tell him he's wrong, but I don't think he knows what any of that means since i use it so infrequently. I don't really see their benefit in training, if he doesn't get a treat he knows it's wrong, I don't see a reason to add a word to it.

    I will give a verbal correction on real life situations, when he's pestering the cat I'll say "Tucker stop it" and he does. But usually it will be when I see him about to do something, like he's thinking about taking a napkin off the table, saying his name in "that voice" and he knows I see him and he won't be able to get away with it, so he stops. He will sometimes react with appeasement gestures, usually stretching on my leg or bringing me a toy, but more than anything I think he views the corrections as a signal that he going to fail if he tries to continue because I'm gonna come and block him/remove him or what he's trying to get/squirt him(in the case of stealing). Sometimes I will do a big exaggerated gasp when he is just starting to do something wrong, and that also works. I am willing to give verbal corrections because it works from a distance and doesn't generally cause him any fear. They are not really a primary punisher for him, he's learned what they mean by me getting up and stopping him after saying some verbal correction, so now they can be used as an initial attempt to stop him, if he doesn't believe me I have to get up and stop him, but lately he has listened very well to my voice.

    Squirting is about as severe as I get. I "scruffed" him once but it was not an attempt to punish him, my papa had come over, I didn't leash him since I believed Tucker already liked Papa but he went nutso and so I grabbed his scruff (he had no collar on) to keep him from eating papa. He yelped and then I cried.
     
  14. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    I spent a very short time using NRM in a training scenario and quickly dropped them. I have smart dogs and NRMs are redundant to them. They know my body language better than I do and of course they know they didn’t get rewarded. Adding a NRM was completely unnecessary and slowed the whole process down.

    No verbal corrections in training. I compare it to a kid solving an algebra equation. You don’t give them the problem until you know they can do each step, but even then, sometimes they get the steps messed up. Instead of “no†that’s not the right answer, you take the kid back to the point where he was successful. Tell him “you were right up until *here*†and have him rework the problem starting from *here*. Same in training.

    If you’re doing crate games, SG explains it really well when she says “anytime the dog makes a mistake that’s information he’s giving us.†(Or something like that.) Basically, go back, lower the criteria, and build from there.

    In real life I will use a “hey†for serious stuff like about to run me over mid zoomie or thinking about having a snark/fight. But 98% of the time simply saying the dog’s name interrupts the behavior.
     
  15. ~WelshStump~

    ~WelshStump~ New Member

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    I use them everywhere, because Enda is mentally incapable of learning a thing without them! If you never tell her what you don't want, she keeps repeating the behavior, but at slower intervals until she finally just shuts down completely. She needs to be told that she's doing it wrong or is not doing what you want, so that she can mentally move on. And, it's just easier if they all know what "Shut up!" means, because there are times I really do want them to bark out the window or at the door, it's easier to tell them when to stop and enough is enough, than it is to try and get them to bark when strange people are selling their religion at your door.
     
  16. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Yep.

    In training I'll use them if the dog is stuck. Webster is especially prone to throwing out twenty behaviors at once then if my mark came as he offerred the right thing but he was doing something else at the same time he will sometimes fixate on that other thing and do it over and over again with increasing frustration and magnitude. It's sort of funny but also not very helpful past a certain point. A simple "that's not it" will usually reset him.

    I also use "oops" for errors made in known behaviors where it's helpful for the dog to know where the error occurred. For some more complicated behaviors with several actions strung together it seems to speed up understanding and avoid a decrease in overall confidence if I an tell them exactly where they went wrong so they know they were right up til that point and what they need to change.

    In general life I use a verbal stop to let them know whatever they are doing is not appropriate and guide them to an appropriate alternative. Older pups/dogs only for the most part since with new pups I try to set them up for success in the first place and don't start testing their understanding of rules til later.
     
  17. SaraB

    SaraB New Member

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    I use a happy "Opps!" to NRM on certain things. I NEVER use verbal corrections during training as I have found it demotivates my dogs, not a whole lot but over time it builds up. I will use a verbal correction around the house. For instance, pestering the cat will get an "eh-eh", if it's an on going problem we will work on learning to ignore the cat and use rewards to teach that. Digging will get an eh-eh and a redirection onto a better activity.
     
  18. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    Absolutely!!! I love NRM :) I think the more black-and-white I can make things while my dogs/pups are learning, the easier it is. Plus, I am VERY black-and-white person so it comes more naturally to me to give verbal feedback no matter what they are doing.

    I do not use verbal corrections unless something SEROIUSLY inappropriate happens while training. I do however use verbal corrections in every day life all the time. But, I rarely, rarely use the word "no". No is reserved for "you are in SERIOUS trouble buddy!". AKA, Eden rarely, if ever hears no. Limit has yet to hear it, and Kastle has heard it probably 5-10 times in his life (he's a year old).
     
  19. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    I've never officially trained a "no" or an "eh eh" but I do use it in every day life if he's about to do something I don't want him to do and he seems to understand it. I guess sometimes I use a "no" while training too ... but it's not like, harsh, or anything. I'm just letting him know that's not what I want him to do.
     
  20. Red.Apricot

    Red.Apricot Active Member

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    Elsie'll get too fixated on the toy and go 'deaf' sometimes, and just offer random behaviors in rapid succession. In that case, I'll say, 'wrong,' or 'focus' and she'll usually come back to herself and listen again.

    I also use it if she decides she doesn't have to lay down for some reason.

    I don't use it while working on new behaviors at all though.
     

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