Pups from the same litter?

[Fran27]

I keep seeing that it's not a good idea to get two puppies from the same litter. Can someone tell me why?

Thanks.

 

[Athe]

http://www.leerburg.com/2dogs.htm

I am constantly asked if I think it's a good idea to buy two puppies and raise them together, or people ask what I think about getting their older dog a puppy to keep the older dog company.

My answer is simple - "NO!!! It's a BAD IDEA !!"

In fact, I will not sell 2 of my puppies to people that want to raise them together. This is a road to disaster. There are a number of reasons for this:

1. It's hard enough to raise one pup and give it the socialization that it needs, much less two. Pups end up only getting 1/2 of the amount of time they need to be properly socialized.

2. Dogs are pack animals. This is a much stronger drive than the average pet owner understands. People think that their little puppy comes from an animal that has been socialized for thousands of years, so how could this have any negative effect on them.

3- When puppies are raised togther they become what we call DOGGY. This means they look at the other dog as their buddy and not the human that owns it. Dogs that are raised to run together NEVER develop the kind of human bond that they would have had if they had been raised in a one dog family.

4- These dogs are more difficult to train. Because they don't have the strong human bond, they don't have the desire to please. In fact they often become stubborn.

All dogs have a very strong pack instinct. The more dogs in a pack the stronger the instinct becomes. Raising 2 dogs together means an elevated pack drive, raising 3 dogs means an even higher pack drive.

Pack drive issues mean RANK ISSUES within the pack. Establishing RANK can often mean dog fights. Don't kid yourself that your 5 pound little lap dog will not fight with its 5 pound littermate. This can become a big deal. This means dog fights when the dogs reach maturity (18 to 30 months of age). Read the article I wrote titled DEALING WITH A DOMINANT DOG.

If you wonder what the worse case scenario could be, read my article about a pack of 3 Rotts that killed an 11-year-old boy. The owner is now serving 12 years in prison for murder and I am proud of the fact that my testimony helper put her there.

So elevated pack drive means that one or more of the dogs is going to become the alpha dog. This means dominance problems with the other dogs, family members and guests. It results in dogs becoming more territorial and more aggressive.

People can have more than one dog if they do it right. I currently have 10 or 12 dogs and we are raising 3 puppies. But they are all kenneled separately and we do not allow them to play together. The only time I ever recommend 2 or 3 dogs being together is when there is the PACK LEADER there that the dogs respect to control their behavior.

You may want to read the article I wrote titled THE GROUND WORK TO BECOMING A PACK LEADER.

If you plan on raising two dogs (whether it's two pups or a pup and an adult) it is important they are never left together unattended. When I monitor them and see one trying to get snotty with one of the other dogs, I control the situation. I NEVER ALLOW dogs to settle things themselves by fighting. Many novice pet owners to often do this. That's counter productive to being a pack leader. Pack members expect the pack leader to control things. Pack members respect a pack leader who protects them from bullies.

So if you are going to do what Cindy and I are doing (raising 3 pups at the same time) you had better go out and get three dog crates and expect to spend a great deal of individual time with your puppies. Most intelligent normal people don't do what we do. Think long and hard before you try it.

Not my words, just from a website I inserted on the top of the page.

 

[Fran27]

That sounds like a lot of misinformation for the most part. If you believe them, getting a new puppy if you already have another dog is wrong, too, especially if they are together a lot. It's wrong, you don't need dogs to be the only dog to have a bond with humans. Tips is with Boris all the time but he's always looking for us, too.

I'm not impressed at all with these reasons. Thanks for posting this however, even if I think it's mostly untrue. I'm looking forward to see all the people here who have several dogs react to this post with their experience

But it doesn't mention getting two dogs from the same litter. Except number 3 maybe...

 

[dani12]

We are not the only people that we know with two dogs and they all seem to be fine. There are a few instances of wrestling but nothing that would make us not want to have two dogs. I'm sure there are instances of it, like the rotties, but they are rotties. Ours are only 10 weeks old (golden lab) and I'm sure we may have to worry about domination at some point but as of right now, they think they I am their leader and they do listen to me as much as a 10 week old should.

 

[bubbatd]

We did get Rufus and Penny from the same litter and it was a mistake. This was 1964 after we lost our other golden. They were harder to train ...just didn't listen. Later when we added to the dog family , all dogs were good and learned the rules of the house from each other. In the 70s I sold 2 pups to a family...this was before I knew better....they ended up giving one to a family member . Again, the pups didn't listen. Will get out my " Bible" and quote .

 

[smkie]

I had sally and Mary at the same time, the only problem i had at all was sally was so shy and it was very difficult to give everyone the love and affection that they needed..sally sometimes got shoved aside in all the chaos..i had to work triple hard to build her self esteem. They were labrador pointer cross puppies, and maybe they were just more mellow in the first place, but i certainly didn't need to crate them seperately or kennel them seperately either. Bronki and mary were only a year apart, and closer to sibling age then mother and son..no two were ever more gentle and sincere with eac other. I do believe that it is easiest to have one pup, train it, get thru the terrible twos, and then two years later bring another in. That way the first one can learn from the second, and training is thus twice easier..that would be a perfect set up.. but fact is Sally and Mary were certainly not aggressive, nor did they ever ignore me..that first article sounds pretty iffy to me..i don't know what breeds they are speaking of, but it certainly wasn't my gurls.

 

[Fran27]

I think the article has some good points, I just really don't think that getting a puppy when you have another dog is a mistake... like the person says. Once your older dog knows the basics and you don't have to watch him all the time, I don't think it's as bad as she says to get another pup, as long as you spend time with both.

Of course my experience is very limited, but judging from her post Tips would not bond to me and would never listen, and it's really far from the truth...

 

[Renee750il]

I see what the person who wrote that post is trying to get at, but all the silly business about dominance and being an alpha or a pack leader kind of gets in the way, doesn't it? I'd say you could explain it much better yourself, Athe, without all the misleading and misguided jargon - personally, I think you're infinitely smarter than the person who wrote that!

The one germaine point to that article is:

3- When puppies are raised togther they become what we call DOGGY. This means they look at the other dog as their buddy and not the human that owns it.

That makes good sense. The pups are already bonded, and they're being taken away from everything they know, so they are naturally going to cling together and bond more strongly and depend on each other rather than on the strange smelling people who have snatched them up and taken them to a strange smelling place far away from mama and littermates and everything safe and familiar.

4- These dogs are more difficult to train. Because they don't have the strong human bond, they don't have the desire to please. In fact they often become stubborn.

That's really an elaboration of the "doggy" description. I don't know that 'stubborn' is the necessarily the right word, though. You are just not relevant to them. They get all the reinforcement and reward from each other and just don't need that human feedback.

All that said, if the person who wrote that was correct on all those counts, I'd have a couple of truly dangerous dogs on my hands right now! While I would never, ever recommend pups from the same litter (although Kharma's brother, Oliver, was a great temptation, lol!), my experience with two pups from different litters, with some age difference between them is that the newer pup will try to catch up with the older pup, and the older pup will work harder to stay ahead. You can use their desire for your attention to your advantage, lol!

 

[bubbatd]

Geeeeze......I wrote a long quote from my " Bible" and it didn't post. Sigh....anyway it was basically what's been said here. 2 pups bond with each other and not you.

 

[dani12]

Does anyone out there have anything good to say about two puppies from the same litter? I'm starting to second guess the fact the we got two. I think they are doing a great job and they are listening as much as can be expected. I would just like to hear somebody/anybody with positive feedback so I can relax a little.

 

[Renee750il]

That's happened to me a couple of times, Grammy. I thought it was just my lousy connection . . . frustrating, isn't it!

 

[dani12]

And another thing that I have been thinking about is that we got our puppies from the Humane Society. Shouldn't have they recommended not getting litter mates if it was that bad. There were quite a few applications on both the puppies that we picked so they weren't at risk of not being adopted. Shouldn't they have suggested that we pick one and let one go to another family if it was going to be a problem rather than risking letting a family take two and return one down the road b/c two was a bad idea? I just really want this to work and I keep hearing the bad sides of it and it is pretty frustrating!

 

[smkie]

what i wrote was mary and Sally turned out just fine...i just had to work a bit harder with sally to not wall flower while Mary grand standed..(is that a word?) they didn't bond with each other, now i did have two children in the house..and all the puppies got loads of attention from everyone so it wasn't just me..it can be done..just extra work to make sure each gets the fair share of human time and training..i would suggest doing your obedience one on one without the other present and that isn't very hard to arrange..short lessons for both at first..a few minutes each several times a day..then after the basics are down you can begin training both at the same time..you should have seen my hoop they day both gurls jumped thru at the same time and got stuck.hehehe we had to get a new hoop. Sometimes we were altogether with GArg too..

 

[Renee750il]

You CAN make it work out fine, Dani, and end up with two wonderful, lovable dogs. It just takes some extra effort and it's good to know what the hurdles ahead of you might be.

Should the Humane Society have told you about a potential problem . . . absolutely - but they probably are clueless. The job doesn't pay much at all, and not too many knowledgeable people can afford to take the jobs, or can endure all the heartbreaks.

Smkie can help you a lot on this - she knows what she's talking about!

 

[sparks19]

In defense of ed frawley (the man that wrote that article) he really is a brilliant man. However you have to realize that his specialty is Schutzhund Training and also bite training. He is a brilliant man though. he is just very serious about what he does and very matter of fact. He doesn't tell things the way people want to hear them.

 

[avenlee]

hmmm interesting thread .. when we got Nora, Sadie was 3 yrs old, give or take, and although Sadie is such a sweetie in any event, I think Sadie knew where her place was within our family and was confident enough to let Nora in with opened paws They never ever ever fought. Even as hyper as Nora is I never had a problem.

 

[Fran27]

In defense of ed frawley (the man that wrote that article) he really is a brilliant man. However you have to realize that his specialty is Schutzhund Training and also bite training. He is a brilliant man though. he is just very serious about what he does and very matter of fact. He doesn't tell things the way people want to hear them.

There's a difference between not saying things the way people want to hear them and spreading false information though. Saying that a puppy won't bond with you if you have an older dog is pure BS.

 

[sparks19]

Ok maybe I missed it but I didn't see him say you can't raise a puppy while you have an older dog. i saw him say that it was not a good idea to raise two puppies. I also saw him say that it can be done but it definately takes extra work.

 

[Fran27]

In the first sentence he implies that it's the same thing.

 

[suzy_99]

We got 2 brothers, Chuckie and Charlie, from the same litter and I thought they were the best dogs we ever had. They were a little more challenging to train, but no more so than a stubborn or willful puppy. They occasionally did have little fights, but they always got over them. Most important for us was the fact that they always had each other so they were never lonely when our work/school kept us away from home longer than we liked. When they were puppies they were not the least bit destructive and they never became barkers. However, from experience I can say that littermates have a better chance of getting along if they are not both dominant (Some dominants will get along, but this is not always the case). In our case, Chuckie was the largest and most dominant of the entire litter and Charlie was the runt and even as adult they were separated by a 20lbs weight difference. Anyway, I do not beleive that you can't get littermates.