Puppies and RAW

Discussion in 'Dog Food and Recipes' started by sammgirl, Jun 30, 2009.

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  1. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Hi everybody!

    Hope you are all well.

    I'm sorry if this has been posted before- I did three searches, my last search I typed in "Raw puppies" and laughed at myself when I caught what I did.

    Anyway, I guess risking being redundant, I'm going to get a samoyed puppy at some point in the next year.

    Before you ask any of the normal "did you go to a good breeder" questions, the answer is yes, and you can check out my previous post here: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t101448/

    Anyway, is it better to feed a growing puppy raw or kibble? The kibble would be a really good type, like Fromm's and maybe supplemented with cow tripe, RMBs, and fish oil.

    OR should I start out with mostly RAW?

    Male samoyeds can be anywhere from 50 to 70 lbs- mostly they weigh in at about 60 lbs full grown, and the puppy will be male.

    Not that they're a giant dog, but I'm concerned about kibble regarding the calcium/phosphate ratios and the puppy's bones growing too quickly. Even and slow growth while maintaining the proper nutritional balance is difficult. I just don't know which way to go.

    If I do go RAW, how would I calculate how much of what to feed the pup?
     
  2. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    here is a great site with lots of info! Raw Diet For Dogs: The Basics

    I adopted my dog as an adult, so shes quite bigger lol but how i started is with one simple food source, chicken is great (and cheap) I kept that going for a week and a half before I went on to add anything. just to give her tummy time to adjust

    Its a certain percentage of your dogs body weight, im pretty sure its 2-4%

    congrats on choosing raw for your puppy! you wont regret it :D
     
  3. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Thanks for your advice!

    Every time I'm in the grocery store, I always make sure to get the BFs dog a meaty soup bone or pigs feet or something.

    I do see lots of cheap stuff in there, and I think it's just as easy to feed RAW as long as you have a big freezer.
     
  4. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Does the breeder feed raw? Could you ask her for guidance? If not, I would invest in some good books as guidelines (anything by Tom Lonsdale) and maybe even consult a nutritionist like or own Mordy (@ dogfoodproject.com) to get a good feeding plan set up.

    I fed Fozzie all raw from 9 weeks - adulthood, and he grew up nice and slow and lean. Being predominantly a breed that is prone to joint issues with their little stubby legs, I had the help of a Cardigan breeder and I did tons of research before hand. With a Samoyed, I obviously wouldn't worry. They are a medium sized, well-structured nordic breed. The puppies of wolves and wild dogs are brought up on exactly what the adults eat; prey model raw. If you can, I would feed all raw. Personally, I gave supplements when I fed all raw, but that is up to you and it is a hotly debated issue. A lot of nutritionists I've talked to also believe in supplementing raw that is not wild caught, but then again some don't.

    It's recommended to feed puppies 2-3% of their estimated adult weight, or up to 10% of their current weight.
     
  5. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Thanks for the information and not making me feel silly for asking newbie questions.

    I don't think I'm going to have a huge problem with bone growth, but I really want this little guy to have every chance that I can give him. I just wasn't sure if it would be any different for a puppy.

    I think a good point was mentioned regarding wolf puppies eating what the adults do.

    Are their foods that are better for specific breeds? That probably doesn't make sense, because dogs are all descended from wolves and have mostly the same digestive tracks no matter what kind of dogs they are.
     
  6. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    Some dogs can tolerate pork less well, I haven't had one of those though.
     
  7. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Are there any problems with feeding RAW? It almost sounds too good to be true, as long as you have the freezer space.

    Say there is bacteria on something, can a puppy's system digest the bacteria as easily as an adult dog?

    Is there something you can do to prevent the puppy from getting potentially sick from the bacteria?

    I know you said pork was harsh, MafiaPrincess, would it be better to stick to a diet of chicken/beef/Turkey for a pup, or do you just experiment and find out what is best?
     
  8. SisMorphine

    SisMorphine Your Mom

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    Sammgirl, I am currently raising a litter on raw. I weaned them onto chicken and now they rotate between chicken, turkey, beef, lamb, and pork with no problems.

    The only tricky thing about feeding raw to puppies is getting the calcium/phosphorus ratio correct. In older dogs you can balance diet over time, but in puppies you don't have as much play. Due to that, and the fact that I don't have a million hours in a day to do food mathematics, I skipped making my own and am using pre-made.
     
  9. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    My bitch prefers pork over all other meat.. Some dogs don't tolerate it well, but you won't know till you try it and have tried it more than once.

    No harm in experimenting some. Dog's guts are meant to handle bacteria that we can't. Their digestive tracts are also shorter to help with that.
     
  10. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    One of the breeders which I chose not to go through for my puppy said that she did not have to worry about the calcium phosphate ratio because she fed RAW.

    I understood only the basics of RAW feeding, so I thought that what she said made sense.

    Due to that, I have another question now- with RAW, how do you balance those two? AND what ratio would you use for puppies?
     
  11. SisMorphine

    SisMorphine Your Mom

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    It has to do with the bone to meat to organ ratios, none of which I could even BEGIN to figure out myself, hence why I'm allowing Bravo to do it for me ;)
     
  12. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    I see!!! Yeah, maybe that would be easier to get the pre packaged RAW.

    As for the breeder I'm getting the pup from, she feeds kibble, so I'm kind of nervous about making that change. But, it's in a year, so I have time to learn.
     
  13. SisMorphine

    SisMorphine Your Mom

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    What kind of kibble does she feed? Truthfully switching from kibble to raw is FAR easier than switching raw to kibble.
     
  14. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    As far as prey model goes, the ratio is 80% meats, 10% offals (organs), and 10% edible bone. The bones of large ungulates are not edible (beef, some lamb bones, some pork bones, etc). Edible bones are pliable and soft, and always covered in meat (but subtract the approximate weight of the meat). It is advisable to be very careful with weight-baring bones in general, as even turkey legs can have very thick bones.

    Chicken is easy to start with because the bones are highly digestible, especially since chickens are butchered so young, and the meat itself is pretty bland. At first, it's a good idea to remove excess fat from the chicken to avoid upset tummy. After your dog has adjusted to the first meat source, slowly introduce others one by one. Some dogs are fine with ANY meat... any! Fozzie has thrown down just about every animal you can buy with no issues. Gonzo has some issues with very fatty meats, but in general he does well with anything. If you start your pup early, and you build up lots of good flora in his system, he will most likely take any meat source in stride. You should feed as MANY meat sources as possible, of the BEST possible quality. Most prey model feeders feed "frankenprey", or a mixture of all sorts of meats and body parts, to make up what would equal a whole animal. The idea is that you achieve balance over time, not the exact perfect balance in every single meal. Pre-made are definitely easier to start with, but a lot of pre-mades tend to be on the boney side, so make sure you shop around! It also costs much more to feed pre-made than it does to feed even grass-fed/free-range whole meats.
     
  15. IcyHound

    IcyHound New Member

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    As said it is about time and bit by bit. It is not a daily balance more like a weekly to bi-weekly balance. Don't burn a ton of energy trying to make sure that they have the perfectly balanced diet, it just dosn't work that way and it does not need to work that way.

    Diet, in anything, including us, is a factor of time not an immediate perfection per meal.

    As for switching a puppy over, have at it. My last one have been raised raw and I'm thrilled with it. The one that I just picked up today has had her first raw meal and was fine with it. She will never see kibble again.

    The slower growth is huge. My 1 1/2 year old dobie is starting to fill out and thicken with maturity but she is 'behind' the normal growing curb. She will not be mature till 2 1/2 or so and that is fine with me.

    Edit to add: When they are tiny (like under 4 months) I tend to feed them till they are full 3-4 meals a day depending on what they need. Once the adult teeth start to come in I start to do more of a balance of weight %.
     
  16. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Thank you for all of the wonderful information. I can't tell you how much it's helped. I think I have a better picture on the whole of RAW feeding. I think that the Prey Model RAW is the way to go. I'm not worried about getting meat- we have several grocery stores and they always have good sales on day-old meats. Plus, they always seem to have really cheap RMBs that are probably for soup bones.

    Now, I just have to find a freezer, LOL!

    As for what the breeder currently feeds, I really don't know. She mentioned it was kibble, but was not specific. I'm not terribly worried about that, because I've known some beautiful dogs that were healthy and reared off of Purina... don't ask me how that happens.

    I'm just personally not comfortable with that and I don't trust what goes into making kibble, anyway. I've heard horror stories about the euthanasia drug being in some kibbles, which means all of the pets we have put to sleep are recycled into kibble. :eek:

    I think I need to do more researching in regards to how important it is to balance a dog's diet. That is news to me, that dogs don't need a balanced diet, and that a bi-weekly balance is what one should go for, rather then a per- meal balanced.

    To Icyhounds- when you say that you balance per week, what does that mean? I am reading on your blog, so maybe I can find more information there.

    Again, thanks so much for taking time to answer my questions. This forum is so much better then the other one I was on, and I'm glad to get good answers.
     
  17. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Its just like people.. .is each meal you eat (even if you are very into health and wellness) completely balanced? No. You aim to get balance in a day, or every few days. Dogs eat less meals so get balance over a little longer time.

    I do the balance over time too. I was a bit worried with Dekka's pregnancy as she is the first bitch I have fed soley raw. But the pups turned out healthy and wonderful (if a bit large!)... Dekka looks fantastic (many bitches look poorly during lactation) even with having a c section and ravenous puppies.

    These puppies will have their intro to raw likely next week.
     
  18. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Thank you for this post. I like the idea of Frankenprey, mainly because it seems like it would be cheaper that way LOL! I went to the store today with my boyfriend, and he was like, "You'll never convince me it's cheaper to do RAW, but I know that nothing will stop you once you have your mind set on something." :rolleyes:

    What can I say, he knows me. I think that we're going to try to get a small freezer this summer for a good price. That way, we don't have to buy everything at one time (the puppy is expensive enough! Sheesh!!)

    Anyway, I saw some really cheap chicken that was a manager special and some turkey necks and some pigs feet, and really it would have fed a dog for a week for about $15.00. That's about how much I'd spend anyway for good kibble.
     
  19. sammgirl

    sammgirl ACoops favorite

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    Good luck on your puppies! Are they JRTs? I've always thought those little guys were really cute, and they're really good at agility, too!! Fast little buggers...and feisty to boot!

    I see what you're saying, I think. I don't eat meat every meal or every day, but I listen to my body for what I need.

    I think also that if you switch up meat sources, you can get a good protein variety. My mom used to give her dogs apple pieces as a treat and canned pumpkin, too. She's a fan of Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe, which I'll probably be buying in bulk for the offal.
     
  20. freedomwolf

    freedomwolf New Member

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    wow. I knew a samoyed once that my mom and dad had when they were married a few years before they had me. Once they had me though, the dog did a complete turn a round and hated kids. One time (when i was about 2 or 3) I went near it I guess it was eating, all I remember though is that I went near him and he bit me in the face. My mom got rid of him after that and gave them to a family that had older children.

    Question on the raw meat. Wouldn't that make a dog angry and aggressive? I heard that once a dog got a taste of blood, they were to be put down because you never knew what that dog would do after they have tasted it.
     

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