Protocol for Relaxation

[Maxy24]

In one of my other threads pinkspore suggested Karen Overall's Protocol for Relaxation to help with Tucker's fear of being stepped on. I'm hoping it will help with his general reactivity as well and teach him a pretty bomb proof down stay. I wanted to create this thread in part to just keep track of how we're doing and to ask for help/tips. I'd also like to encourage anyone else who has or is doing the protocol to share their experiences and ask questions.

Here is the protocol: http://dogscouts.org/base/tonto-site/uploads/2015/03/7002_Protocol_for_Relaxation.pdf


We're on "Day 3". Day 1 went perfectly, he never broke his down stay (we're doing down instead of sit because he prefers that position and will inevitably slide into it if I make him sit for too long). Day 2 needed to be repeated once as he jumped up when I tried to walk halfway around him, as I expected he would. After he jumped up I repeated but only walked as far as his hip which he was fine with. Then the next day when I repeated the whole Day 2 protocol he let me walk halfway around with no issue (which surprised me).

Day 3 will need to be repeated, he actually broke his stay three times. The first was right near the beginning for no obvious reason, I don't remember what it was during, it might have just been a 5-10 second stay. The second was during a 10 or 15 second stay, but he heard one of the cats jump over the gate to my room which made him concerned. The third was when I tried to walk halfway around him for the first time. After he broke his down I repeated the task each time and he was able to do it. He didn't break it any of the other times I walked halfway around him, including when I was clapping.


There are a few issues we're running into. One is his sneezing, I'm just not sure how I should be treating it. Tucker sneezes when he's frustrated (during training or when he wants something and you're not paying attention to him) but I'm not sure if it's something he's in control of or if he really feels the sensation of having to sneeze. They look like legit sneezes, not little puffs, he does the whole sneeze face and even brings his paw up to his nose sometimes. So I'm not sure if I should treat it like demand barking or just pretend it's not happening (I've been doing the latter, though I try not to reward immediately following a sneeze).

Another issue is space. On day 3 it has you taking 10 steps away from your dog (right, left, and backwards) and it will eventually have you taking many more. I can't do that in any room in the house without leaving his view. I could do it outside but I can't do many of the exercises to come outside (walking towards the doorway, knocking on the door, touching the doorknob, etc.). Some of the exercises will also have less of an impact outside. For example walking out of view and saying "hello" inside would really bother him and is something we need to work on. Doing it outside wouldn't bother him at all. So not sure what to do about that. Maybe just walk as far as I can inside while working on the entire list of tasks and then work on that particular task separately outside later to make sure he can do it?

The final issue I have is that he gets frustrated during the tasks where he just has to stay while I do nothing. I think he's confused because during training if I stand there doing nothing it means I want him to offer behavior. If I'm doing something, like cutting up treats, he can hold a down stay for a very long time and doesn't get worked up at all. But during the stays I'm doing for the protocol he sneezes, his tail start wagging, and he stars offering behavior. What should I do about that? If I continually praise him it seems to help a bit. As does turning away and fiddling with the treats on the counter. But I'm not sure if I'm "supposed" to do anything like that. Right now he does not have an official stay cue. I just tell him to lie down and he's expected to wait until he's released. Do you think teaching a stay cue and using that before the stays would help him understand that he's not supposed to be doing anything?

 

[milos_mommy]

I've never read through this program before but this is awesome!! I'll definitely be using this a lot. I might actually try this with Milo, just to practice myself more than for him.

About the offering behaviors - I think introducing a cue for "stay" as opposed to just having him wait for release might help. Mostly I think you're going to just need to reposition him whenever he starts offering a behavior. Am I correct in picturing that what's happening is you ask him to sit/down, and typically he would hold that until released, but if you start doing things like moving around him/clapping/speaking he breaks the sit or down to offer other behaviors? In that case I would just give him the command again in the same spot, same way you'd teach a puppy breaking their stay. If you can catch it before it happens you might need to re deliver the cue, like if he always sneezes and wags his tail hard just say "sit" or "down" again to let him know that's still the behavior you want. Eventually he'll realize you never want him to get up until the release word is used.

 

[Raegan]

Karen Overall's house must be enormous :rofl1: I just do the best I can when trying to take steps away. Once you get through the whole program once, you can always repeat it outside if you think the distance component is important for your dog. It's not so much about the specific actions, as gradually getting more difficult, with easier portions interspersed. So I walk as far as I can, then do things like walk in place, walk in a circle, go out of sight into another room for a split second. I walk up my stairs one at a time.

You can use a stay cue if you think it will help, and talk to him too.

I usually do RP for calmness in the house, so if I had a dog sneezing out of frustration/overexcitement I'd probably just ignore it. Those things usually go away once the dog is more relaxed, which is an outcome of going through the protocol.

 

[Elrohwen]

I've done a good portion of it at home, but I haven't done the work to really take it on the road. At first I tried to follow along by reading and it was so hard, but the MP3s make it so much easier. I used it once when we had to take Watson to stay in a random furnished apartment for a night and he was kind of insane and wouldn't settle. It seemed helpful to him to just lie there and do something he was familiar with.

 

[Maxy24]

Am I correct in picturing that what's happening is you ask him to sit/down, and typically he would hold that until released, but if you start doing things like moving around him/clapping/speaking he breaks the sit or down to offer other behaviors?

The opposite actually. If I ask him to down and then start doing things he will hold the down, like he understands he's supposed to be waiting for me to finish. If I ask him to down and then just stand there and do nothing he start offering behaviors. He doesn't actually break out of the down though, he offers what he can lying down, mostly scratching/slapping the floor (which I encouraged while I tried to free shape him to cross his paws) or placing his chin on the floor. If it was just me working on a down stay I wouldn't care because he's still in the right position, but I'm supposed to be encouraging relaxed behavior and he is not relaxed during those tasks. He does seem to get better during the end of the list of tasks, like he figures out that this isn't an offer behavior kind of training session.

Karen Overall's house must be enormous :rofl1:

I know, right? I assume they must be picturing you in a training ring or something. My rooms aren't 20 steps wide, plus furniture makes things even smaller.

Once you get through the whole program once, you can always repeat it outside if you think the distance component is important for your dog. It's not so much about the specific actions, as gradually getting more difficult, with easier portions interspersed.

Yeah I think I'll just walk as far as I can and then while we're doing the protocol and then just work on extended distance outside. I can really only go about 5 steps inside which isn't very far at all. I would like to make sure he can hold it at further distances.

I've done a good portion of it at home, but I haven't done the work to really take it on the road. At first I tried to follow along by reading and it was so hard, but the MP3s make it so much easier.

Reading it is annoying, I didn't realize they had audio! By the time I find my place on the page and read the task I've already made him stay for several seconds and took a few steps away lol.


I think I am going to start saying stay before the extended stays where I do nothing to see if he figures out that it means I'm not looking for any other behaviors from him.

 

[Elrohwen]

Reading it is annoying, I didn't realize they had audio! By the time I find my place on the page and read the task I've already made him stay for several seconds and took a few steps away lol.

The audio makes it so much easier! Keeping my place while reading was nearly impossible. I don't even download them, just stream them on my phone. I'm not sure if there are other sites, but I use this one:
http://championofmyheart.com/relaxation-protocol-mp3-files/

 

[pinkspore]

So glad you started! There's actually a newer Protocol that I like a lot better: http://championofmyheart.com/relaxation-protocol-mp3-files/ there's even more emphasis on making it calm and relaxing rather than just reading like a stay-proofing exercise. It still works great as a stay-proofing exercise, but it's been fine-tuned for relaxation.

The most important thing to remember is that it's your protocol, and you get to set the criteria. I started out wanting perfect attention from Brisbane, without so much as an ear-flick away. That turned out to be too hard, and we both got frustrated until I decided to ignore it. Relaxed attention with occasional ear flicks worked perfectly for us.

With Brisbane my focus was on rewarding calm behavior as much as possible. This meant that along with the listed tasks, he got a reward for any other distracting or stressful things that happened while he was staying. Cat walked by him? Treat. Loud truck going by? Treat. Another person moving in the house? Treat. He also got rewarded for any sign that he was relaxing or settling in, like rolling onto his hip or resting his head. The focus was on boring him to death, rather than challenging him to stay.

I'm not sure if the older protocol goes into detail about the treats, but I think the newer one mentions that low-value treats work better than super-awesome ones for boring your dog to death.

I have been accused of "excessive negativity" for pointing out that Karen Pryor's house must be enormous. I could manage about eight steps to the left, four to the right, and five backward before going out of sight. The whole thing got a lot easier when I let it go and just worked with what I have in my tiny house. I did a lot of repetition, sometimes I did the same day's exercises twice in a day and sometimes over and over until my dog looked genuinely bored with the whole thing.

I also did quite a lot of remedial work with certain things, like saying "hello". Brisbane used to bark wildly like someone was at the door every time I greeted someone, even when answering the phone. We had several sessions where I just said "hello!" in my best Phone Voice, gave him a treat, waited for him to go off Red Alert, and then repeated without ever asking him for a behavior. I did this sitting on the floor facing him at first, so it was very obvious that this sound I was making did not signify an actual greeting. From there it was much easier to incorporate it into the protocol and get him to actually relax.

Same with the doorbell. I started out with the front door open, Briz and I standing on the front porch, and a bunch of high-value treats. Doorbell, drop handful of treats, stand a around being boring for a few minutes, repeat. Again, super obvious that nobody was at the door, and that I was making the sound happen. At first I would even point at the doorbell and make sure he was watching when I pressed it. Several sessions of this and we were finally successful at incorporating the doorbell into the protocol.

One of the things that helped me the most was watching other people doing the protocol on YouTube. I watched several different days by several different people and saw how each had their own criteria.

 

[gngracie]

So glad you started! There's actually a newer Protocol that I like a lot better: http://championofmyheart.com/relaxation-protocol-mp3-files/ there's even more emphasis on making it calm and relaxing rather than just reading like a stay-proofing exercise. It still works great as a stay-proofing exercise, but it's been fine-tuned for relaxation.

The most important thing to remember is that it's your protocol, and you get to set the criteria. I started out wanting perfect attention from Brisbane, without so much as an ear-flick away. That turned out to be too hard, and we both got frustrated until I decided to ignore it. Relaxed attention with occasional ear flicks worked perfectly for us.

With Brisbane my focus was on rewarding calm behavior as much as possible. This meant that along with the listed tasks, he got a reward for any other distracting or stressful things that happened while he was staying. Cat walked by him? Treat. Loud truck going by? Treat. Another person moving in the house? Treat. He also got rewarded for any sign that he was relaxing or settling in, like rolling onto his hip or resting his head. The focus was on boring him to death, rather than challenging him to stay.

I'm not sure if the older protocol goes into detail about the treats, but I think the newer one mentions that low-value treats work better than super-awesome ones for boring your dog to death.

I have been accused of "excessive negativity" for pointing out that Karen Pryor's house must be enormous. I could manage about eight steps to the left, four to the right, and five backward before going out of sight. The whole thing got a lot easier when I let it go and just worked with what I have in my tiny house. I did a lot of repetition, sometimes I did the same day's exercises twice in a day and sometimes over and over until my dog looked genuinely bored with the whole thing.

I also did quite a lot of remedial work with certain things, like saying "hello". Brisbane used to bark wildly like someone was at the door every time I greeted someone, even when answering the phone. We had several sessions where I just said "hello!" in my best Phone Voice, gave him a treat, waited for him to go off Red Alert, and then repeated without ever asking him for a behavior. I did this sitting on the floor facing him at first, so it was very obvious that this sound I was making did not signify an actual greeting. From there it was much easier to incorporate it into the protocol and get him to actually relax.

Same with the doorbell. I started out with the front door open, Briz and I standing on the front porch, and a bunch of high-value treats. Doorbell, drop handful of treats, stand a around being boring for a few minutes, repeat. Again, super obvious that nobody was at the door, and that I was making the sound happen. At first I would even point at the doorbell and make sure he was watching when I pressed it. Several sessions of this and we were finally successful at incorporating the doorbell into the protocol.

One of the things that helped me the most was watching other people doing the protocol on YouTube. I watched several different days by several different people and saw how each had their own criteria.

I've never heard of this relaxation protocol, but I've downloaded the MP3 files and will be reading up on it. It sounds like a wonderful tool!

 

[Maxy24]

The most important thing to remember is that it's your protocol, and you get to set the criteria. I started out wanting perfect attention from Brisbane, without so much as an ear-flick away. That turned out to be too hard, and we both got frustrated until I decided to ignore it. Relaxed attention with occasional ear flicks worked perfectly for us.

I'm definitely not trying to set his standards too high. Really I just want him to lie down and not be scanning the environment. For the most part he's done fine with that unless he hears something. Outside will be a different story. As it is whenever I ask him to sit or lie down on a walk he must first give me some calming signals (always gives me a full body shake and some lip licks) and then check over his shoulder. He continues to scan while he is sitting or lying. Clearly he can't be comfortable out there yet.

With Brisbane my focus was on rewarding calm behavior as much as possible. This meant that along with the listed tasks, he got a reward for any other distracting or stressful things that happened while he was staying. Cat walked by him? Treat. Loud truck going by? Treat. Another person moving in the house? Treat. He also got rewarded for any sign that he was relaxing or settling in, like rolling onto his hip or resting his head. The focus was on boring him to death, rather than challenging him to stay.

After the cats got him to break his stay last time I will be doing this too.

I also did quite a lot of remedial work with certain things, like saying "hello". Brisbane used to bark wildly like someone was at the door every time I greeted someone, even when answering the phone. We had several sessions where I just said "hello!" in my best Phone Voice, gave him a treat, waited for him to go off Red Alert, and then repeated without ever asking him for a behavior. I did this sitting on the floor facing him at first, so it was very obvious that this sound I was making did not signify an actual greeting. From there it was much easier to incorporate it into the protocol and get him to actually relax.

Good to know. I'm not sure how badly he'll react. I know in the past he's flipped out if he thinks we're talking to someone at the front door because he hears those key phrases (hello, how are you, come in, etc.) or hears us speaking in a slightly raised voice-usually trying to talk to someone in another room. So we might need to start without him actually holding a down, or I might just have to start with my voice very calm and ho hum and then work up to a realistic "talking to a newly arrived guest" tone.





Unfortunately I haven't been able to do it again until today, so we repeated "day 3" this morning. He's really having a lot of trouble holding the initial stay for several seconds. As soon as he realizes we're doing this lay there and don't move thing he's fine but at first he really seems to think we're doing the type of training where he has to do stuff. His first task was to stay for 10 seconds. I had him lie down and rewarded him and he broke the down within 3 seconds. Told him to lie down again and he broke it again after a few seconds. The third time he was able to hold it for the full 10 (if he had broken it again I wouldn't have tried to have him hold it as long again). I know he can hold it for that long (and longer), I just don't think he understands that he's supposed to at first. I think I'll have to gradually teach a separate stay command outside of protocol training. He broke his stay one other time. He heard a dog's jingling collar outside (it's a dog he likes which is the only reason he didn't actually run off to bark) and was actually holding his stay really well. I increased the number of rewards and tried to be kind of noisy shuffling my feet so he couldn't hear the dog very well. But when I jogged to his right I was jogging towards the front door so he broke his down stay to come with me in case I was opening the door so he could go see his friend. So other than those incidents he did well.

He just keeps getting worked up during the down stays where I do nothing. If I jog in place, move, do anything at all he's calm but if I just stand there he starts scratching/slapping the floor, sneezing, wagging his tail, etc. Should I just be making him hold it for a shorter time period for now? 3-5 seconds?

 

[Elrohwen]

He just keeps getting worked up during the down stays where I do nothing. If I jog in place, move, do anything at all he's calm but if I just stand there he starts scratching/slapping the floor, sneezing, wagging his tail, etc. Should I just be making him hold it for a shorter time period for now? 3-5 seconds?

Watson has this problem too sometimes. If I'm moving around it's "proofing" and he knows to try harder to stay. If I'm standing there he thinks he should be doing something else. I've had success with placing him back in the down instead of telling him to down. I just use the leash to pull down gently on his collar to put him into the down (I used a treat at first so he understood what the collar pressure meant). Now I just continue to place him down until he figures out that he's not getting up so he might as well relax. If I keep using the down cue, he thinks "Ok, I did down! Now the next thing!" It might not work for all dogs but it seems to help him relax.

I do also reward for shorter periods of time if I think that he needs that, but that's usually on things like 1min stays. 10sec is well within his ability, he just needs to know that we are staying now and not offering behaviors. Actually telling him "stay" firmly helps too, vs just asking him to down and then standing there.

 

[pinkspore]

I would reward more frequently if he doesn't seem to be getting it. You can reward every three seconds during a ten seconds stay if that's what he needs to succeed right now. I don't think I would be progressing to the next day yet, though.

Yay for keeping it up! We definitely had some hiccups along the way, but excusing myself for missing a few days and just keeping at it helped tremendously.

 

[Maxy24]

We went on vacation this past week so that got in the way. We're still stuck on day 3. We were sooooo close yesterday though, he only slipped up once and it was while I was jogging in place for 20 seconds, something that's never been an issue before. So I think we're getting close to being able to make it through the tasks. That said I'm not sure I'll move on to the next day until i can get him to be more calm during the plain old "stay for _ seconds". It's like night and day between those stays and the stays where I'm doing something. If I'm walking or clapping or jogging he is still except for his head moving to watch me. As soon as I stop doing something and am just standing there the tail pops up and starts going, he starts sneezing, starting scratching the floor, etc.

 

[milos_mommy]

Maybe, and I don't know if this will work but I don't think it will hurt, try slowly reducing your movements? For example, slowly pace the floor, and take a longer and longer pause between each step, or ask him to stay and then rock back and forth, or start crouching on the ground and slowly stand up, etc until you can increase his duration once you finish the movement? And then kind of phase the movement out?

So if you can get him to stay for 7 seconds while you pace and hold it for 3 seconds once you stop, try doing 6 seconds pacing and 4 still, and so on?

 

[ThreePs]

Stream of talking

It has been a couple of years since I read Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol. Now that I have ring experience, the incessant talking is making my inner Obedience B!tch twitch .

"Bonnie - sit - (3-second pause) - sit - (3-second pause) -
Bonnie, sit - (move closer to the dog and move the treat to your eye)
sit - (Bonnie sits) - good girl! (treat) -
stay - good girl - stay (take a step backward while saying "stay" - then stop) stay Bonnie - good girl - stay (return while saying "stay" - then stop)
stay Bonnie - good girl! (treat)"

Fenzi students and/or OB competitors, would you use this protocol as is? What do you think? It is difficult to read the written Protocol but I did scan the appropriate pages and didn't see mention of how to wean the talking. She states, "The one thing that you absolutely cannot do is to talk a continuous stream to the dog without receiving the context-appropriate responses to your requests." but I fear the directions are teaching beginners to do exactly that.

 

[Raegan]

For pet dogs/pet owners, I absolutely let them/have them talk. Often the owner needs that outlet, they're going to talk to the dog so I'm going to direct them in how to do it most effectively, and for a lot of dogs the verbal support can make up for the owner's lack of training skills.

I don't tend to talk to my dogs that much when I'm doing it, or even client dogs. But I also don't think RP translates to formal stays very much.

 

[Elrohwen]

I don't talk to my own dog at all when I do it except when I am treating at the end of each step (instead of "yes!" I'll talk in a calm soothing way while I give him the treat). I will talk if I think he needs the support though, like if we're doing it somewhere with distractions and I think he needs the help. I try not to make it look like a formal obedience stay at all though.

 

[ThreePs]

Talking

I agree it would be advisable to paint the picture differently from the formal competitive obedience stay. I'm not creative enough to think of different postures, verbals, and hand signals for everything!

I want to have a relaxed mat behavior. I never succeeded beyond pez dispenser when I tried a couple years ago. Thinking of trying again, but am concerned about confusion.

I want too many kinds of stays:

Stay for a sec while I fumble with something
Stay and be ready to come energetically to front
Stay and be ready to run really fast
Stay and settle with strange neighbors nearby for 3-5min
Stay and settle for a boring while
Stopped contact could be argued as a stay
Stay in stand while a stranger touches you
Stay in stand from heel then signals

If I did field trials, there'd also be the "whoa." I’m probably forgetting other applications of stay behavior. So many stays!

 

[Maxy24]

I used the audio files for the first time today and it really helped Tucker with his stays while I'm not doing anything because I was able to praise him continually (well it did after I convinced him the voice was coming from the computer and not the front door). When I wasn't using the audio I had to count in my head during the stays and I can't keep track of my counting while I'm praising so I just stayed quiet or threw out the occasional good boy. So being able to tell him that he's doing exactly what I want throughout the stay made him improve significantly. We got through all of "day 3" with no breaks in his stay! He also sneezed and wagged a LOT less. Now I just really need to start doing this daily not every once in a while like I have been. I'm probably going to repeat day 3 once or twice more to make sure we're solid on it before moving to day 4.

 

[Elrohwen]

I used the audio files for the first time today and it really helped Tucker with his stays while I'm not doing anything because I was able to praise him continually (well it did after I convinced him the voice was coming from the computer and not the front door). When I wasn't using the audio I had to count in my head during the stays and I can't keep track of my counting while I'm praising so I just stayed quiet or threw out the occasional good boy. So being able to tell him that he's doing exactly what I want throughout the stay made him improve significantly. We got through all of "day 3" with no breaks in his stay! He also sneezed and wagged a LOT less. Now I just really need to start doing this daily not every once in a while like I have been. I'm probably going to repeat day 3 once or twice more to make sure we're solid on it before moving to day 4.

I think it makes a huge difference to the dog when the handler isn't distracted and confused trying to read a long list on a piece of paper. The audio is the best thing ever. I play it on my phone, so I can use headphones if we're out in public.

 

[Maxy24]

Unfortunately I don't have a smart phone so I have to use the laptop. I don't suppose there's any way to download the audios onto an ipod or something?

Anyway, I repeated day 3 twice to be sure we had it down pat and he was perfect! So today we moved on to day 4. He almost nailed it. During one of the 15 second down stays he got a particularly powerful sneeze that he just had to get up for so he could cover his nose with his paw. Then when I tried to get him to lie back down he rolled over instead (which is weird because he hates that trick), but eventually he got back into his down lol. Other than that no issues whatsoever. Very proud of the little guy.