Prong leashes

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Cthulhu7, May 24, 2012.

  1. Kayota

    Kayota New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    962
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Illinois
    Thank you... If it helps, this dog was the friendliest, most hyper field-bred lab I've ever met. He was just licking my face the whole time. And once again I'm tired of defending myself. I didn't mean to cause such a stink... I definitely wouldn't do this with any dog and I don't understand why everyone is pushing me when I already said I agree. "do a couple slow calm pets, connect, and calmly ask for something and they sit." is EXACTLY how it happened... No real "staring" or "grabbing" involved as I keep trying to say. Once again I'm sorry I came of the way I did, but I really wish people would just drop it already. No one has any idea what the situation was or how the dog was acting and rest assured that if the dog had looked any way uncomfortable with me touching him that I would have backed away immediately. I don't just walk up to strange dogs and start "grabbing" them...
     
  2. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Just a heads up but if you come across knowing better than others on a forum you're bound to be challenged. Prongs are properly used with quick pops, not restraining pulls. Prongs are a useful, helpful tool. To dismiss a tool entirely and in turn snub ones nose at those that utilize said tool will only make those come to defense of the tool on this forum, on either side of the fence.

    I personally don't need anyone grabbing my dogs faces, no matter how gently, they may bite. Also though I don't let techs wander off with them as a rule do we agree there. Lol

    I am sure you did nothing wrong and I understand your point, the flip side is some dogs do much better with less physical commands, or requests, many dogs however flourish with them. You've just got to be carefully aware.
     
  3. Kayota

    Kayota New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2007
    Messages:
    962
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Southern Illinois
    I don't see where I dismissed them entirely at all... I said, and I quote, "I don't really like prongs... There was a lab on one at the vet office I'm job shadowing at, and it just pulled non stop regardless! I felt so bad for its neck."

    I expressed my opinion. I also never snubbed my nose at anyone or ever said anyone was wrong for using them. Just that IN MY OPINION, I do not like prongs.

    I agree with you on the latter two points... Just fail to see where I "dismissed" them "entirely" and then "snubbed my nose" at those who use them. Why can't I express a simple opinion without having to defend myself? Nowhere did I say anything along the lines of that. Never said I know better either.
     
  4. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    8,893
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2 Pit bulls and 2 Malinois, We like to stay busy.
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Home Page:
    Fair enough. :)
     
  5. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    Actually the only way I like to see prongs used (if at all) is to let the dog self correct and not to use any sort of a pop on it.

    To the OP your dog is small, so I doubt you are in danger of being dragged (the only clients I ever said ok to a prong were those who physically couldn't restrain their dogs when training.. even then it was our last option. They do have their place, but IMO its not a great 'go too' tool)

    Train your dog how you want them to walk. Likely he has no idea.
     
  6. SevenSins

    SevenSins Guest

    Prongs don't "pull non stop" on their own. A prong collar is simply a training tool. If someone is "pulling non stop" on a prong, it's the person MISusing the tool that is to blame, and not the tool itself.

    Trying to let a dog "self correct" on a prong is a bad idea with my breed (and a lot of other terriers), most I've owned would just hit the end of the lead and choke themselves out with the collar, popping is much more effective. I'd personally rather see someone gradually popping the lead and collar than see a strong dog hit the end of the lead hard with a prong on, but hey, that's just me.
     
  7. skittledoo

    skittledoo Crazy naked dog lady

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    13,667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Dog Trainer CPDT-KA
    Location:
    Fredericksburg
    This is how I use(d) mine. We don't use the prong very often anymore. Cricket wasn't quite getting it at first with clicker/treats. Sometimes she would walk fine and I would reward reward reward, but then the next few tries she would be all over the place even with higher value treats. When I added the prong collar it only took a couple times with her self correcting for her to take a step back and start focusing more on me, the treats and actually training to walk on the leash properly. I will occasionally use the prong collar as a refresher if she is having a dur dur dur moment, but we really don't need to use it much anymore except in really highly distracting situations where she is likely to pay me no attention no matter what. We are still training in those higher distraction settings and the plan is to get her to the point where we hopefully never need the prong collar again.
     
  8. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    94,266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    3, Bimmer, GSDX (m); Kharma, Fila Brasileiro (f);
    Location:
    Where the selas blooms
    Home Page:
    This. Both of mine responded to the self-correct without having to hit it hard though.

    Tallulah and Kharma both walk well -- 95% of the time. That 5% with Kharma is critical though, plus, having it on her means there is no question that she IS under control.

    The 5% of the time with Tallulah keeps her from having her neck rubbed raw from a regular collar. And then there's the "no question of control" even though it's silly with her, just a matter of the public perception because she is a muscular APBT.
     
  9. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    This is a fairly simple fix (and yes I breed and train terriers, I know all about their temperaments) dont' give them enough leash to get up a good head of steam. A foot or less of slack is plenty.

    And by letting a dog self correct you don't have to worry about having uber perfect timing (as long as your leash is held short enough)
     
  10. Cthulhu7

    Cthulhu7 Mitch & Erin

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    So you're saying that he'll learn if i just give him very little room?

    Btw i watched the video that tucker&me posted. I'd love to do that, but i have yet to find treats he'll eat. Planning to go buy small batches and try them out. Local shelters can always use the extras.
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    No with a prong the trick is to make sure they can't get a lot of momentum to hit the end of the leash and a big ow.

    On the treat front. Try cheese, or baked liver. Or if you are going store bought try Zukes or other small soft treats. Freeze dried liver is often popular. Don't go for the hard cookies, even when dogs do like them they are a pain as the dog spends a fair amount of time hoovering for crumbs. Another hint is to make sure he is hungry. Do it before a meal, or skip a meal to go train.

    Use life rewards. No progress whilst pulling. Don't let pulling work. Sadly most puppies get trained to pull (accidentally) and they learn it quite well. Then we they get big people punish them for what they have been taught.
     
  12. Cthulhu7

    Cthulhu7 Mitch & Erin

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Seems like the pulling is more a distraction issue than anything else.

    I just remembered he likes mozzarella. I'll probably try that in the house, and then at the park.
     
  13. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    Oh sure most dogs pull because life is stimulating and exciting. But think of a puppy. You take puppy out.. puppy is sooo excited to see the world and pulls all over the place. Puppy sees exciting blade of grass down the sidewalk and pulls towards it. And low and behold puppy gets to that exciting plant!! THe puppy might think pulling = getting to the fun stuff. The puppy never knew that the walk would happen and he would get to the fun stuff even with out the pulling.

    Then puppy grows a bit bigger and the person at the end of the leash notices the pulling and then they start punishing the dog for doing what has always worked.
     
  14. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    See and to me, with a breed like yours that have little or no pain receptors :)D), there is a very real possibility of the dog habituating really fast to the correction - regardless of whether the dog self corrects or you correct him. Then you’re back at square one.

    I’m all about self-control for excitable/distractable dogs, and teaching attention behaviors using the distraction as cue. IOW - see strange/interesting thing = check in with mom. Won’t solve the pulling issue entirely, but is an important part of the process.
     
  15. Cthulhu7

    Cthulhu7 Mitch & Erin

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Honestly i would not be shocked if that's the case here. Sadly i don't know how he was raised, but it definitely wasn't by a trainer.

    Wow that sounds worse than it is. Essentially, he has a few bad habits.

    NEW QUESTION (don't feel like posting a new topic)
    Can a muzzle or head collar help with dog on dog aggression? I'd like to take Cthulhu to the park to meet other dogs, but I'm worried he'll just go dominant and get his ass kicked. if i took him there with a muzzle to prevent biting and barking, would that help?
     
  16. AllieMackie

    AllieMackie Wookie Collie

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2008
    Messages:
    6,598
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    Professional Illustrator
    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    Home Page:
    I agree that prongs have their place in training and work remarkably well when used correctly on the right dog. That said, I don't feel a prong is for you, at least not yet. There's far more positive and mutually rewarding games you can play while walking to improve his focus on you and improve the loose leash walking. They don't work overnight, but they work in the long-term.

    I'm lucky in that my dog was never a hardcore puller, but in adolescence he definitely had times where he would pull me to get to something good, pull when he saw another dog, pulled when he saw a shiny thing, etc etc.

    What worked for me was a combination of several techniques used together. I used an Easy Walk harness for a spell (the front-attaching no-pull harness folks keep mentioning) which was VERY beneficial, and rewarded him positively when he kept the leash loose on that harness. I used treats, I used a friendly voice, I would pick up my walking pace excitedly... like Dekka said, life rewards. If he pulled in the EW harness, he got turned around, and didn't get anywhere, so it was a good start to teaching him what he was supposed to do, as opposed to simply what NOT to do like a prong.

    When "weaning" him back onto regular harness and collar walking, I used a combo of things:

    - "be a tree" when he pulled. When he pulled, I halted in my tracks. If we started walking and he pulled again, I'd halt immediately. He would get frustrated (and so would I, sometimes) but I was consistent.

    - when he walked loosely, I would give positive happy voice praise and give periodic treats for walking loosely. The treats would be random, a sort of bio-feedback for doing what I like him to do.

    - the Look At That game. This works especially well for distractions like people, other dogs, whatever. Use a clicker or your voice to mark. Before trying this on walks, teach him to make eye contact with you to a command of "Look at That. Click/mark and praise handsomely when he does, and build it up to the point of having him immediately look at you for the command. Then start using it on walks at random times, and build on that so that when distractions appear, he knows that he can look at the distraction, but that looking at you = a yummy treat and happy owner! Finn and I have brought the LAT game out once again since he's he's been having focus issues, and so far I've seen some great improvement. :)

    Hope that helps some!
     
  17. skittledoo

    skittledoo Crazy naked dog lady

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2007
    Messages:
    13,667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Dog Trainer CPDT-KA
    Location:
    Fredericksburg
    Wait... Are you talking about a dog park? If you are worried about dog aggression then maybe the dog park is not the place for your dog. Honestly, a LOT of dogs are not candidates for dog parks. I have one that is great at dog parks and another dog that I would never ever bring to one.
     
  18. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2011
    Messages:
    3,199
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    9 not counting ducks, chickens, and fish
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    No, I think the point was the puppy has always been allowed to pull. YOU putting a prong on him would be punishing for something that has always worked and they have no idea is "wrong".

    At least that was how I took it, dont want to put words in Dekka's mouth.
     
  19. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,722
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    One husband of 15 years
    Location:
    Southeast
    If he doesn’t have good doggy manners, then a dog park is the last place he needs to be. Dog parks are generally not a good place for unsure dogs.
     
  20. Cthulhu7

    Cthulhu7 Mitch & Erin

    Joined:
    May 16, 2012
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    1
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    It's not so much a manners thing. I read online that taking him to a dog park, but staying outside of the fence might help him see how other dogs behave. Also he'd get better used to the alarming amount of smells. I figured this might be even easier if he was hindered from barking, or worst case scenario turning on me. Which, for the record, he hasn't done.
     

Share This Page