Prized Show Dog Poisoned At Show?

Discussion in 'Dog News and Articles' started by CrystalGSD, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I don't know this woman, whatever opinion I hold doesn't really matter. But i'm skeptical for a lot of reasons already mentioned. If AR people, why just one dog? were there more? is it shoddy reporting? are reports, aren't reports? It was confirmed? by who, and how did they confirm it?

    Just went thru a similar case in the GSD world. Rather prominent AWDF and UScA judge. A lot of you probably heard about it too. Lots of stories surrounding that one too and in the end, it looks like it was nothing but an accident and two sides assumed the worst in each other and stories and rumors took off from there. I had extended family members and friends donating money to find the the people that had "stolen, killed, and then dumped his dog back by his training field". I dont' know how much money was raised, but I'm guessing if other people had a typical response myself and friends had, it was more than just a few thousand dollars.

    I do know a lot of those people involved in that story, and happen to think assumptions got the best of "both groups". and still today, here we sit with no answers and the two sides even further entrenched in their initial assumptions.

    Forgive me if I don't fall easily for a story I can see ten thousand holes in.
     
  2. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    If I'm "bashing" anything, it's the decision to make a public accusation with no real evidence (that has been presented so far); if the news article was inaccurate and there WAS testing done, then she could at least release a statement with the testing she did.

    The other thing about mouse/rat poisoning is... without a some kind of toxicology to back up their suspicions (which apparently was done? or not?) the best a vet can say is "these symptoms could be consistent with anticoagulant poisoning." That's pretty weak "evidence" to make accusations about.

    And for anticoagulant mouse/rat poisons, it can take up to a week for symptoms severe enough to kill a dog to show up. So even if it WAS poison, the assumption/accusation that it happened at the show are irresponsible IMO. The dog could have been exposed anywhere for up to a week before symptoms appeared, why assume it was at the show?

    Me, too. I understand that the woman is sad and grieving and likely angry, but why throw around accusations that either haven't or can't be corroborated ? If she's going to make the choice to make the accusation, then her argument is going to come under scrutiny. *shrug*
     
  3. -bogart-

    -bogart- Member of WHODAT Nation.

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    so sad , another story with no end .

    there are two different chazzers claiming to know what is what and both have different stories, who knows the real truth.
     
  4. OwnedByBCs

    OwnedByBCs Will Creep For Sheep

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    To be entirely honest, I don't really see why it matters. All I know is that at one point they *did* find rat poisoning in his system. I am not entirely sure if they found it before or after he died, but that is what I know.

    I don't see why everyone cares so much whether or not he was poisoned at West or not. His owners said they *think* it *may* have happened at West, but they also said it could have happened at the Plum Creek Kennel Club show which was in Denver the following weekend. I have attended PCKC for 7 years and I have personally witnessed animal rights activists attempting to poison water bowls and let dogs out of crates- all I'm saying is that it does happen.

    I think you all are taking this badly written story a little too personally. The important thing is that Cruz did pass away from rat poison, whether it was accidental or intentional is another matter entirely and there is probably no way we can ever know for sure either way.
     
  5. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Exactly. My point is that with that degree of uncertainty, no public statement or accusation should have been made. It's just fear mongering.
     
  6. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    This. And of course, most of us can only go by the article, which said the dog was never tested. Of course, if they did test the dog and the rat poison was found, things look different.

    As I said, I feel terrible for anyone who loses a beloved pet, which I suspect this dog was.
     
  7. OwnedByBCs

    OwnedByBCs Will Creep For Sheep

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    You "suspect"? Man, its comments like this that make it hard for me to partake in forums. How would you feel if your dog was poisoned? Wouldn't you be angry? If it were my dog, I would be in exactly her shoes. Maybe its irrational, maybe its fear mongering, but honestly I can't imagine that was her intention... she is incredibly upset that she lost her very loved pet and partner. Breeders are constantly targeted by AR activists, and that is the conclusion that most people jumped to when we heard he was poisoned.

    For the record, she is not the only person who feels Westminster is not a safe show for dogs to participate in. There have been numerous incidents with PETA, and honestly those people are scary. It is such a high profile event that it is the perfect target, not to mention the benching of the dogs is really a pretty terrible practice and makes it a lot harder to keep everything safe.

    *shakes head* I just do not understand people sometimes.
     
  8. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    You don't understand that people want other people not to spread rumors and fear monger? Quite honestly this whole story makes me question the existence of these supposed other "numerous incidents with PETA" - which is kind of the whole point about how these types of unproven accusations are undesirable.

    There's no doubt in my mind that this woman is upset and lost a beloved pet. And sometimes grieving people are very angry and need someone to blame. But if you're going to point a finger somewhere, you'd better have some pretty solid evidence, not "it looks like the dog probably died of this and it maybe might have happened at that place because some other people think it's not safe".
     
  9. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Huh? I don't know these people; I suspect (assume? presume? Is it the word I used that was an issue?) that the dog was a beloved pet, and, as I said, I just feel terrible for anyone who loses their pet. I'm confused why that statement is upsetting. I don't care if the dog was poisoned, dies of cancer, hit by a car, or anything else - I simply feel for someone who loses something they love.

    The first paragraph was simply stating that, as one of the many, many people on here who don't know the owner, all I had to go on was the article - which said they suspected poisoning but that they had cremated the dog without testing it. If the facts are different - obviously the situation is different.

    Regardless of what the facts are, my sympathy is with those who lost their dog.

    I remain perplexed by why my post was upsetting.
     
  10. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    In regards to the effectiveness of toxicology screenings:

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/01/us/westminster-dog-dead

    Regardless of how or what happened, my heart goes out to his owner. It's horrible to lose a friend like that, I wish there was a way for her to get closure on it all.

    ETA: which makes sense with rat poison. After four days it would be out of his system, but the damage would already be done.
     
  11. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Actually some anticoagulant poisons stay in the body for up to 2-4 weeks. And the way they work, they don't do permanent damage. As long as they are in the system in an active form they interfere with blood clotting, but once they are out of the system they are no longer a danger (unless the dog has bled enough in the meantime to be life threatening). That's why if you know what happened in time, this type of poisoning is actually quite treatable (with anticoagulant rat/mouse poisons only, there are others that have no treatment).

    Also, a necropsy may have shown if there was another cause for the bleeding. IME, while not impossible, vomiting blood is pretty uncommon with this type of poisoning. Usually dogs bleed into their lungs or abdomen, or have extensive bruising on the skin.
     
  12. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    And on a bit of a tangent but a somewhat relevant FYI, last year the EPA in its infinite wisdom banned most of the anticoagulant mouse/rat poisons for commercial sale (except through certain venues). Meaning that now most if not all of the poisons that most of us can purchase easily are in a class of bad, bad juju neurotoxins that will kill you dead without any hope for an antidote or treatment other than trying to purge it ASAP.

    Yay EPA!
     
  13. LostAndConfused

    LostAndConfused Active Member

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    Yeah I've heard that. When we did have rat poison down (Which was a lengthy discussion because we really didn't want to), it was ONLY in the basement and the cat was NOT allowed down there and the dog was only down there on a leash.

    It was several years ago now (2004 maybe?), but we successfully treated our grey dog for what we suspect was rat poisoning (Only had a little on the property and it was in a locked shed so not sure how the dog would have gotten to it) with vit. K. Lots and lots of vit. K.



    But, those are off topic. I feel so sorry for the dog owners, handlers, etc. that had to lose a dear friend that way. I've lost beloved pets to what we believe was poisoning from a neighbor, so I can totally understand their anger.
     
  14. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    I definitely would be angry, and people would hear about my suspicions too. But I wouldn't be going public with any story unless I had proof. I can speculate all I want to my friends and family.
     
  15. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Strider ate a box of mouse poison when he was about a year old. It was basically just warfarin. Anyway, when we realized it and rushed him to an e-vet it had already been 12-20 hours.

    They gave him tons of vitamin K shots, sent me home with oral vit K, and did a sack of liquid charcoal just in case there was any residue in his digestive system.

    The vet said that he had already started bleeding into the pericardial sack, and that if we had gotten him in any later he would had keeled over dead for no apparent reason. That was scary. I'm glad we knew that he'd gotten into the poison or we would have lost him. She made it sound like after a couple of days the dog is pretty well doomed, unless maybe they can do a bunch of blood transfusions or something. I don't know what the treatment would be at that stage.
     
  16. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    There are a bunch of different specific anticoagulants that can be used as mouse/rat poison, and they all have slightly different characteristics in terms of how fast they cause problems and how long they last in the body. The longest acting ones stay in the body up to 30 days - they can still be treated with vitamin K, you just have to give vitamin K that whole time. The shortest acting ones stay in the body for I think just a few days (can't remember off the top of my head).

    Most of the time people call as soon as they realize it happened and the dogs get treated before they ever show any signs. But if they don't call right away... the longest I've ever seen between a dog eating it and showing symptoms was 10 days (the owner knew the dog ate it but apparently didn't realize it was poisonous to dogs until it was in pretty serious shape - although happily the dog ultimately lived). The shortest was maybe 2-3 days. It seems like it's usually about 5-7 days.

    Anyway, with the new ban last year rat/mouse poison is becoming a whole different ball game. /tangent
     

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