Police / army dogs (of any discipline) are they safe?

[sillysally]

I don't know any police officers that look like that. Most departments have fitness standards that they need to pass.

This. Plus, if someone jumps into the middle of a situation to "help" the police and gets hurt in the process they're not a victim, they're an idiot.

 

[sassafras]

My friend Aaron, when he still live there, saw a guy running from some of these kind of cops in Orange CA. Since he was a pretty good amateur boxer back in the day he had no personal inhibitions about getting involved. Unfortunately for the crook Aaron was also walking his dogo Mikey (RIP). Aaron's first dogo Samson was the first one in the USA to achieve a Sch III. Although not titled, Mikey had also been PP trained. So Aaron let Mikey do what he was trained to do. Without breaking the skin, Mikey took the guy down & held him for the chubby cop to handcuff.
So while its nice in theory to say sit back & let the cops handle it, sometimes it's the wrong answer because they are less capable than you are.

Because something like this happened that one time, it doesn't mean that it's appropriate or necessary every time. Nor do I trust most people to have the necessary judgment to decide when it is.

 

[Red Chrome]

I actually have a bit of knowledge about the dog in the link that FlyinSBT posted. The dog is a good dog from what I know. Also, the dog has had some inceidents that aren't favorable to the public's viewpoint. I also happen to know that the dog has not had some proper maintenance training thus these issues have erupted. However, I also know that the dog has not had any incidents in a while and the department is working to fix the issues that had sprung up.

Also, I love it when people bring up links like that, because we all know the media is always truthful and portrays both sides of the story.

I am sure most of you love hearing about a K9 making a huge bust of narcotics, taking down an armed criminal keeping the general public and yourselves safe from them. They also love hearing the stories of the MWDs who saved troops because they detected the explosive device before the troops ran it over or many other scenarios that happen across the world EVERY day.

I hate to say it but the population of people who have never done bitework and who have no real knowledge of it, will never understand it. They won't understand it in a working or sport setting. They just fail to see how a dog trained like a K9 can be safe in public. My own dog has a live bite under his belt, guess what, he is a bit more guardy at home, but other than that, he is the same social stable dog he was before.

This discussion on message boards always reminds me of the Pit Bull discussion between haters and owners. We always remind people to not take media seriously when it comes to dogs, know the whole stories. More good pit bulls than bad.....same with working K9s. There are far more good in service K9s than there are bad ones.

 

[JennSLK]

In this day and age I would never step in or let one of my dog help apprehend someone. First off I don't want the cop or bad guy shooting me or my dog and secondly I don't want to be sued and have my dog PTS, which with our screwed up world could very well happen

 

[Romy]

I don't know any police officers that look like that. Most departments have fitness standards that they need to pass.

I know a few... more than a few really. One time the entire Lacey, WA police force got in huge trouble because all the on duty officers were hanging out at Dunkin Donuts while the bank across the street was robbed.

My brother thought it was hilarious because he worked on a neighboring police force. The Lacey PD had a reputation for not enforcing fitness standards.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

FWIW, this is a photo of my fat ass to the left, you know, someone who loves sweets and donuts.

I will never understand that joke, really.

 

[Flyinsbt]

Also, I love it when people bring up links like that, because we all know the media is always truthful and portrays both sides of the story.
.

Well, I wasn't the first one to post it, I just brought it back up because it appeared Adrianne hadn't seen it. But you may have noticed, that when I reposted it, I particularly commented that the reporting was likely to be slanted towards drama.

However, the bites have to have actually occurred for their to have been the cash settlements mentioned. And you are stating yourself that you know one of the dogs in that news story, and that the dog hadn't had proper maintenance training. Obviously, that made the dog, at least temporarily, unsafe.

It's not an either/or question. We don't have to say "all police/military dogs are safe all the time" or "no police/military dogs are safe ever". The truth is in the middle, as I commented earlier. I don't have personal knowledge of military dogs, but the police dogs I've been around were, for the most part, safe.

However, it's silly and counterproductive to argue that police dogs are never unsafe. These news stories exist because sometimes, they are.

 

[Flyinsbt]

It does. But at the same time, it seems like common sense as well. Sure, they were trying to be helpful and that's sweet. But, it's no secret that bullets fly and dogs get deployed in these situations, and you might get caught in the middle. I see it differently than the Kitty Genovese case, as there nothing was done. Miakoda was referring to those who jumped into the middle of a situation that police were already involved with.

I don't know. It wouldn't cross my mind to jump into the middle of a police situation as it just sounds like a good way to get hurt. Same with the guy who heard the helicopter. If I heard one, I'd lock my doors then peer out the window to see what's happening, not go outside!

Glancing again at the article, one of the people that was bitten was described as "trying to help the police". So from that we jump to "why do so many people do this", and make it sound like the bites were a result of doing something they shouldn't.

To me, this is similar to reading a story about a woman being raped, and saying "why do so many women go out in public alone?"

Are there situations that are less safe than others? Yes, and maybe those are chances that it would be wiser not to take, but it doesn't lessen the unpleasantness for the person who becomes a victim.

I happen to agree that the guy who was bitten while trying to help the cops was probably doing something unnecessarily dangerous, but since we aren't given any of the details, it may not be as extreme as mentioned. Could be that the suspect ran by, and the guy just instinctively tried to grab him. People do that kind of thing. We don't always carefully reason out our actions when in the heat of the moment.

One of the people mentioned as a bite victim in the article was a police officer himself who was attacked while on the job. Obviously, doing his job was the stupid idea there.

As for the guy bitten when he went into his driveway to see what was going on when he heard a helicopter... why would you look out your window to see a helicopter? You wouldn't be able to see it. A helicopter doesn't necessarily mean police action. He was asleep in a house with the windows open, it doesn't sound as though he lived in a neighborhood where he felt particularly unsafe. If I lived in a quiet neighborhood, and heard an unexpected noise during daylight hours, I can easily imagine stepping outside to see what it was. In fact, I do live in a quiet neighborhood, and I likely would.

 

[release the hounds]

The bigger issue is, why was a find and bite dog running around without his handler on the other end of a leash? Sounds like a handler and training issue to me. Who knows what the dog is like, certainly nothing to be gained from that article on that front.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

The bigger issue is, why was a find and bite dog running around without his handler on the other end of a leash? Sounds like a handler and training issue to me. Who knows what the dog is like, certainly nothing to be gained from that article on that front.

Exactly.

Also, Sarah, I don't think, or maybe I missed it, anyone thinks all working dogs are safe, however people in this thread have said all are unsafe and hence the counter argument.

Mismanaged and each of my dogs would be unsafe, dogs are so much a product of management and to look at the dogs without that consideration is ridiculous. This is why I would like more information before judging a bite than a fantastical story told by the media.

 

[Romy]

FWIW, this is a photo of my fat ass to the left, you know, someone who loves sweets and donuts.

I will never understand that joke, really.

When did I ever say you are fat because you like donuts? Or that every person who likes and eats donuts is guaranteed to get heavy?

It's funny because

a: THAT police force had that reputation, even among other police forces,

b: because more than a few of the officers at the time actually were rather overweight (seen it first hand)

b: there is the cop/donut stereotype, and a bank robber managed to get away with a substantial amount of money robbing a bank across the street from where ALL the officers on duty were gathered eating donuts.


The entire force was disciplined for it, because for one thing all on duty officers should NEVER be congregated in one place, and they should have been aware of the bank robbery and intervened. They also started enforcing their physical fitness standards because the incident brought a lot of attention to the issue.

And that's from someone with a crap ton of family in law enforcement. My brother (the cop) thought it was the most hilarious of all, and he worked personally with that force doing trainings and things because he served on a force in a neighboring city where they were very strict about physical fitness. He loves donuts, no he's not heavy. I don't see what your picture has to do with it.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Because the stereotype is exhausted and the effort of the story is to further prove, in conjunction with pops inflammatory photos, that cops are commonly inept due to their weight.

 

[DJEtzel]

My friend Aaron, when he still live there, saw a guy running from some of these kind of cops in Orange CA. Since he was a pretty good amateur boxer back in the day he had no personal inhibitions about getting involved. Unfortunately for the crook Aaron was also walking his dogo Mikey (RIP). Aaron's first dogo Samson was the first one in the USA to achieve a Sch III. Although not titled, Mikey had also been PP trained. So Aaron let Mikey do what he was trained to do. Without breaking the skin, Mikey took the guy down & held him for the chubby cop to handcuff.
So while its nice in theory to say sit back & let the cops handle it, sometimes it's the wrong answer because they are less capable than you are.

This reminds me of this...

Which I totally agree with. It's impossible to trust the police 100% of the time, and if you're fully capable, sometimes it's in your best interest to defend yourself or assist. Civilian arrests and concealed carry permits exist for a reason, after all. The police KNOW they can't be relied upon all the time.

eta; Adrianne, I pictured you much shorter with dark hair! :O

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I am all for defending yourself, I own guns and we encourage practical protection behaviors with the dogs, but that is a world away from jumping in front of an officer and trying to do their job for them because you feel they are inept, especially when you're a bystander.

Ps, I am tall but don't trust my hair, it's naturally red-brown but I dye it all over the spectrum.

 

[release the hounds]

defending yourself and involving yourself with a police chase are entirely different things.

people can put up all the photo's of cops they want, (BTW, Adrianne, i want some of the donuts you eat, I think they could do wonders for my physique ) But I don't think need to go there. Afterall, well over half of America is overweight by quite a bit and over 30% is obese. Chances are if you're posting in this thread, I could make weight jokes about you and the odds are in my favor I wouldn't be wrong.

I have never worked with a police k9 handler that was overweight, not even a little bit. All have been a far cry from those pictures posted. Though I can see the humor in a force full of cops eating donuts across from a bank while being robbed I'm sure that scene has been played out in a movie or two over the years

 

[Red Chrome]

The bigger issue is, why was a find and bite dog running around without his handler on the other end of a leash? Sounds like a handler and training issue to me. Who knows what the dog is like, certainly nothing to be gained from that article on that front.

This, exactly.

I've met the dog, he isn't a bad dog.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

defending yourself and involving yourself with a police chase are entirely different things.

people can put up all the photo's of cops they want, (BTW, Adrianne, i want some of the donuts you eat, I think they could do wonders for my physique ) But I don't think need to go there. Afterall, well over half of America is overweight by quite a bit and over 30% is obese. Chances are if you're posting in this thread, I could make weight jokes about you and the odds are in my favor I wouldn't be wrong.

I have never worked with a police k9 handler that was overweight, not even a little bit. All have been a far cry from those pictures posted. Though I can see the humor in a force full of cops eating donuts across from a bank while being robbed I'm sure that scene has been played out in a movie or two over the years

Good post.

And, in mind with summer coming, instead of voodoo donuts we made these(http://www.couponingncooking.com/2012/07/skinny-cake-batter-ice-cream-sandwiches.html?m=1) last night because going without a desert is like... insanity.

(I also can turn almost any conversation into a foodie one)

 

[Flyinsbt]

Mismanaged and each of my dogs would be unsafe, dogs are so much a product of management and to look at the dogs without that consideration is ridiculous. This is why I would like more information before judging a bite than a fantastical story told by the media.

The article is actually not as slanted as people are making it out to be. Again, I do think they probably played up the drama of the bites. That's what media does. But the bites are undeniable. It also talks about different training for Schutzhund & European police dogs vs American police dogs (at least, the article says that European police dogs are trained to do the bark & hold, as in Schutzhund, I suppose I don't actually know if that's true or not), and why American police dogs are trained to go directly for the bite. And the last section of it brings up the fact that incidents like this are rare, and indicate a need to look more closely at the individual dog, handler, and the training regime.

Yes, view the article with critical thinking, understanding that the media will play up drama in any given situation. But there are still facts in it that are relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[BlackPuppy]

Fama

This thread reminded me of a story I read about David and Fama, the Bombsniffing dog. I looked it up and found it. It has several episodes and is pretty darn funny, amazing, touching, well, it's a "boy and his dog" type of story. If you have some time on your hands you can find it here.

http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32099&page=1

 

[Red Chrome]

I know someone who is from Germany and I assure you, the majority of k9s there do bite, they do not just do hold and barks. The Czech still has working border patrol dogs and they also bite first.

That articles rendition of the differences in training are lacking to say the least. You can easily tell they lack hands on knowledge and experience.