Payton

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by Beanie, Apr 11, 2013.

  1. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Well, it's not me. He has picked fights twice now when I am not even in the room. I was not fast enough tonight, he was leaving the room and I called him and he did not come back, and instead of immediately going after him I was too busy putting a headband on my head. And within the span of about five seconds he had started a fight.

    He is fighting when Georgie is around and when my mom is stupid and gets between them. I told her not to get between them and to keep Georgie away and she keeps doing it. I don't know what to do when my mom is now the one who keeps setting things off and she is too dumb to realize what she is doing and stop it. I don't really want to C&R them but what else can I do?? How long is this going to go on? I posted this on Thursday, they have had a fight every day since, excepting Saturday. My mom getting in the way with Georgie has been the cause of each of those fights since I posted this. They have not had any other issues with me. Georgie is not out with them 99% of the time but in that 1% of the time she somehow manages to do exactly what I told her NOT to do and set Payton off.

    Auggie is in constant "diffuse the situation" mode now. If Payton approaches him at all he turns his head and walks away. Payton wants him to play, Auggie will not play with him. This is not fair to Auggie.
     
  2. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    ok, this is a very much been there, done that kind of advice considering I live with jrts that can be a problem esp with same sex aggression. And my dogs are excellent compared to some jrts.

    The advice of impulse control has been excellent and I would like to add to it.
    What EVERYONE in the house has to start getting good at is body language and then redirecting or managing depending on the persons skill level and time.
    What you look for is the glances at each other, hard eyes, stares, up on the toes, position of ears. It can't get to the point of growling, let alone a fight (even if it is just very vocal at this point).

    Punishment can work, but tends to just **** them off more and doesn't solve the problem typically and doesn't change the behaviour. So I don't vote for that and I doubt that is the route you would take anyway. And you might just have to take the punishment to an extreme for it to work.

    Better yet, build a positive association over a negative one. Which means, one hard glance or stare (or any of the other signs by themselves or together) and all the dogs go to work.

    What I do, is placement training and have all the dogs either on chairs or mats. Some dogs are required to sit, others to down or stand. The offender must be in a down and don't ask the dog that is being picked on or worried to do a down. It is a vulnerable position and dogs that are worried are likely to be reluctant to do it or remain in it or will break. All dogs must have solid placement training before being able to do it as a group.

    Once in a group placement, recall one dog to you and work with them, doesn't matter what you train, tricks, obedience etc. Dogs in placement as also being rewarded and sometimes having their positions changed from down, sit or stand. I work each dog, even for 2 minutes sometimes longer or depending on the dogs attention span. Keep it light, fun and interesting. Most of the time, once I have worked all the dogs (esp free shaping which makes them mentally tired), they are released. The offending dog is always released last. If the offending dog has still not softened their body language, it is at that time they go for a time out in their crate.

    The key to this, is noticing BEFORE there is a problem and taking the time to work them as a group. Good things happen when they get along. If that can't be done at that time, crates. You also might find an activity away from home that they both really enjoy without over stimulating them. Again building that 'good things happen' attitude.

    I also believe it is because Payton has reached that first big milestone of maturity and hormones. Typically hits between 2-3 yrs of age, the next one hits around 5 yrs of age.
     
  3. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    Recon can be added to your jerkface club.

    Seriously, he hates having most other dogs around the house and only tolerates it. It's not an age, gender, or size thing, it's just overactive dogs that want to be in his face while he's trying to relax. We thought about resource guarding for a while and it's apparent that is not it. I corrected him for it a few times out of instinct (which is really hard to get over, btw!) and it got worse. Instead of growling at Bogey from across the room, he would charge him and pin him down without showing any warning signs. Not what I wanted.

    We worked a lot on impulse control which made a big difference, did minor crate/rotating so that they were only out when I could click to calm and build a positive association. I stopped correcting. Recon was pretty fine with Bogey in the last week or so he was at my house. Recon accepts the puppy now just fine and will even play with him.

    And, I let him correct the dogs to a certain point instead of stopping it when they got in his face, then rewarded him FOR STOPPING and coming to me. No screaming/correcting... that is what gives them more reason to hate the other dog. So now when Recon occasionally corrects the puppy, I calmly say his name, he walks away and starts to slink because he thinks he'll be corrected, but instead I call him to me and reward, and he will go back to happily play with the puppy. Since this is a behavior thing and not a cue, I have no fear that he would backchain a behavior of pinning or correcting a dog harshly then come to me as a command for food. He would be doing that by now and it's not the case...

    I just have to say one more time that I will tell you what did not work and made matters worse for quite some time.... (see below)

     
  4. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    To be more clear, to me a CTJM does not have to mean physical corrections, it can be a verbal correction timeout etc. To me it just means something to rock their little world.

    I will say, you have to do what works best for your dogs. I have large dogs who would seriously injure each other if they wanted too. I have an intact male who is pretty dominant. I personally do what works at my house for my dogs cause I have a lot of dogs come through here in one way or another and my dogs have to tolerate them...period.
     
  5. Gypsydals

    Gypsydals New Member

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    Beanie, could Georgie be coming into heat soon? I noticed that when the Great dane was here, shortly before she left (due to her coming into heat), the boys attitudes changed, Ivan was much more on edge around Peewee. And we even caught peewee trying to mount her.
     
  6. *blackrose

    *blackrose "I'm kupo for kupo nuts!"

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    Sounds like the issues we have between Chloe and Rose. Honestly, for us, we just separated them. Due to the way the house is set up, that was easiest. Chloe is now older and a bit wiser, and Rose is much older and cancer/age has pretty much completely deteriorated her, so I don't think either one of them would fight anymore...but we still hold by the old routines because that is what they're used to.

    With them, as soon as it got to the point they were squabbling over unknown triggers (and Rose started fighting back), we separated. I wish we had done it sooner, TBH.

    Currently, they can be outside in the yard with each other without any issues. They could probably be left loose together in the house if they were always under direct supervision. Because, as has been stated, as soon as even a hard glare was thrown by one of them they could be put into "time out" and/or separated. Any unsupervised time means they need to be in their own section of the house.

    It really sucks having dogs that don't get along all of the time, but its not the end of the world and is actually quite doable to work around, IMO, as long as the dogs aren't actively trying to seriously injure one another. Even when Rose and Chloe would squabble, it was all noise.
     
  7. DJEtzel

    DJEtzel New Member

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    I as well do what works for my house as I also have numerous intact dogs coming and going and there is always someone different here. VERBAL corrections made the house like thin ice, so to say that a dog NEEDS to be corrected as an end all be all is silly. My dog would still be lunging and attacking the other boys if I had done that. Instead he views their interactions as positive and that was all he needed.
     
  8. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    This is exactly what I've done with my girls too... I mean, IF they get into a tiff (it's noisy but not serious) I will break out my "daycare voice" and end it quickly with a big "HEY!" However, verbal correcting them or sending them to time outs for tense posture and other warning signals was what I (lazily, I admit, it was easier than doing training and being armed with treats) did at first. Did not help.

    I proofed the hell out of both their "leave it" commands for when they both rushed at food, and built in several positive interrupters for when they start playing too rough and Keeva gets pissed (Blossom will usually get snippy back when she's aroused from playing). I use "take a break!!!" and it means run to me and sit politely for cheese whiz or peanut butter, eyes on me, no focusing on your sister and waiting politely for your turn at the food.

    My situation is a little different, Beanie, as my girls have very predictable triggers. But I'm sure that with time, you will figure out what is setting Payton off and what's preempting the issue. Maybe it would be wise to C&R for a while, like a week, and then try introducing them as if they are brand new to each other? Take them for a walk, reenter the house together, etc?
     
  9. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Corrections would have made Pip 1000x worse I'm sure. He's an insecure, anxious dog and even verbal corrections would have only made him more insecure and anxious. I'm not a person to say "always" but I think probably corrections almost always do make it worse.

    I went immediately to gate & rotate because although there was only a single incident, it was serious. Not just snark, it was a physical attack. I'm very fortunate that Squash is so stable that he didn't have any lasting mental scars towards other dogs. But anyway, the layout of my home made that easy to do, separating into two areas without anyone being completely removed or isolated from everyone else's presence (including ours). They can still interact across the gates and do so appropriately, they've never been snarky across the gates.

    And in our case triggers were pretty easy to identify as well. A little resource guarding, a little "police dog," a little bratty teenager, a little insecure old man. I worked with a behaviorist immediately to come up with a plan but basically a lot of counter conditioning in the house and yard for Pip, a lot of drag line use, a lot of working in each other's presence like Ado described, a lot of happy walks/canicross together. In the yard I trust them completely at this point, I just turn my back and walk away at the first sign of tension and it always diffuses. In the house they are only loose together when I am working them or doing nothing else but supervise dogs because our home is small and space is tight. It's probably overkill on my part but since no one is ever physically isolated from the rest of us I'm perfectly happy with the arrangement for now.

    Good luck. It's hard and daunting at first but it's all doable. I think you're going to have more problems with the other people in the house instead of the dogs. :(
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I think corrections can help if you know the trigger. In Mia's case it is often because she's wound up or tired. She gets so incredibly wound up and then takes it out on other dogs. Sometimes she needs to be told to calm the **** down. So I will put her in a sit or down stay until she does calm down.

    Or maybe that's just prevention and not correction. Works for us though.
     
  11. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Just to make it clear, I have no intentions of ever hurting my dogs in the name of "training." It's not even a discussion worth having and why I have not bothered to respond to the suggestions to do so.


    Georgie just came out of heat about five weeks ago I think. Pepper is not due to go back in until June so we still have about a month before she gets close, assuming she has a regular schedule. Payton has to this point been very good about giving me signs the girls are going in, none of which include picking on Auggie, and he has not done that. However Georgie is Payton's wild playmate so I can easily see why he would be trying to do any kind of resource guarding with her.
    OTOH it could simply be my mom, who has not been handling this very well. Last night she walked into the room and I had Payton with me, Auggie was in the kitchen, and she got between them - although they were about fifteen feet apart - and because she was "between" them, she stiffened and froze and didn't know what to do. That's certainly a good way to cause tensions.

    Things would be easier if I were in my OWN house without having to deal with other people who are not as dog savvy, especially when it comes to a high drive dog like Payton.

    Thanks very much Ado, that helps a lot.

    sass, I did think about putting up baby gates, but I think there might be some barrier frustration if I did that (on Payton's end.) I could certainly try it and see what happened. I'm not sure which dog I would put where. Auggie would need to be gated into the kitchen so he can be near the water and the door to go out and potty, but that means he would be gated away from me and Payton gated IN with me...

    Right now Pepper is the best dog in the house LOL. She's just running around like LA LA LA I'M PEPPER LA LA.


    Question - up to now I have let Payton continue to stay out at night... should I crate him at night? They ignore each other completely at night, Auggie sleeps on the bed with me and Payton on the floor except for right after I get in bed and before I wake up in the morning. I am not worried about them fighting in the night but I am wondering if I should step it up a bit... until you're not being a butt anymore, you have to sleep in your crate?
     
  12. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I am lucky ... I don't have the "fight to the death, tear each other apart" type of dogs ... Dogs like people sometimes have scuffles & arguments & disagreements. I have found that if I interfere, it (at least for me) makes things worse btw the two who are having the problems ... If arms that if I stay out of it, they seem to resolve it themselves.

    Oftentimes it's just a lot of noise & no one is even touching her. Josefina will sometimes pester the other dogs (rubbing up against them, standing over them & staring at them etc ...) she just isn't good at reading subtle "please leave me alone" cues from her fellow canines, but now, a snark from one I the others gets the message across so maybe she is learning (she used to just stand there looking like "huh?" Even after she exited the "terrible teens").

    Cushioning her, redirecting her, when I saw the other dog displaying "leave me alone" body lingo, actually hindered her learning when to leave the other dogs alone so I stopped interfering.

    Of course if there is one dog that is seriously at a disadvantage (big size difference, age, etc) or for some reason CAN'T repel the other dog then I would intervene.
     
  13. Muttkip

    Muttkip LABRADERP!

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    I'd just crate and rotate until you pin pointed the source of the problem.

    I went through this with Beau and my Westie I used to have but their fights were YOU WILL SUBMIT OR DIE!!!!! type fights....each fight was a vet visit to get Wrigley some drains and stitches. Beau doesn't play around....:(

    But anyways better safe then sorry
     
  14. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    Agreed, I have cattle dogs ... Buff said ... Sometimes they need to give each other a CTJM, if I know they aren't intent on killing each other they will just give each other a "what's what" but like I said ... I have dogs that don't put up with other dogs **** ... If you have a dog they isn't repelling the Other then I agree, they might need YOU to give them their CTJM.
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I don't think anyone meant harm the dogs. Or maybe I read correction differently. I just know Mia's was mostly ou of overstimulation so stopping her and revving her down helped a lot.

    Anyways sucks you're having to deal with this. Definitely sounds like mom might be contributing to the problem unintentionally.
     
  16. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    I don't think it's a cure-all for every situation. If my home didn't have the layout it does, I'm not sure it would have worked. For Pip there was a large component of anxiety, and having his own defined space actually seemed to help him relax (at the time he was also started on anti-anxiety medication as part of our overall plan, so that has helped as well). They've never been snarky at the gates, either, or I would have had to change how I was doing things. Pip occasionally still gets a bit of excitement and frustration if the youngsters are playing together in "their" area and he can't police them - but part of the overall plan has been to reward him for calm behavior/ignoring them play, so that has gotten better and better over time.
     
  17. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    It may be worth dividing them when you are gone, since they are okay on your presence. Hopefully you'll be in your house soon, but in the meantime I would be focused on calm behaviors, noting and rewarding good choices, diffusing tensions before they escalate (like ado said), and above all -- preventing opportunities to rehearse the behavior. If your mom is a catalyst or enabling (een unintentionally) then they need to be separated in those circumstances until you can get a handle on it.

    Just my two cents though.
     
  18. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I hate to say it ... But maybe neutering him might be an option to explore ESP with so many intact females in the house. When I was done showing bear & I knew I was not going to be able to "campaign" him like I would have had to for him to be a breeding dog ... So I neutered him.

    They are your dogs & it's your choice, I'm not saying it will help but sometimes it does.

    Maybe having Peyton drag a leash around, that way you could remove him quickly at any sign of trouble.

    I will not crate/&/or rotate ... I just can't, my living situation makes it impossible ... So ... The dogs just "have" to get along.
     
  19. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    I wasn't gone when it happened, just not physically in the room. They are all crated whenever I'm not home. Auggie might be let out because my parents like him, but my parents don't really like Payton so he isn't. =P

    I was in my bedroom with Payton, Auggie was in the other room with my mom (and Georgie), Payton left the room, and because I did not immediately follow him and go get him, he went after Auggie. Friday was a similar situation, I was in one room and my mom in the other and the dogs were in the other room with her. That was the first time it happened around my mom so I didn't think there was going to be a problem since to that point I was assuming it was my presence that was causing the problems. Saturday we went without any scuffles, Sunday was when it happened around my mom again and I figured out what was going on with her. Monday was entirely my fault because I should have gone after Payton right away, I knew it was going to happen. It happens very very quickly so I just can't wait to go get him even a few seconds.


    I'm just not sure how to separate them, like I said, because it doesn't seem right to put Payton in with me and Auggie elsewhere. I'm also hesitant to jump right to that since a few people here have said it's harder to re-introduce after separating...
     
  20. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Ah sorry, for some reason I had thought you were gone entirely.

    Kim's a punk whenever I visit my parents. Mom's dog is ummm special. Undersocialized, overreactive, etc. I say Kim is a punk because she think it's hilarious to get a rise out of poor confused Maggie and will intentionally set her off if she thinks she can get away with it. And then laugh.

    Sooo I tether Kim to me. She is rewarded for behaving well in Maggie's presence, and Maggie gets to interact with me and be rewarded for not being a canine whirling dervish. And if Kim starts thinking thoughts she should not, I am *right there* to tell her leave it or down or whatever is appropriate for the situation. By the time we go back home, they are fine together and I don't have to be quite so fanatical amount management.

    I don't know how sustainable this would be for you, or if it's really an option, but going back to puppy basics and tethering may be something to consider for the time being. It would still allow Auggie et al to visit you at will.
     

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