Papillon questions

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by JacksonsMom, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    So, I have a question ....

    Is there different "types" of Papillons, as in different lines and looks, etc?

    Because they are definitely a breed still on my "to do" list if you will (lol) but I have a very specific look that I prefer. I know personality comes before looks but I'm not going to lie, if I'm getting a dog from a breeder, I'd want it to be aesthetically pleasing to me. :)

    I don't like really thick coats, or a lot of ear fringe. I also don't like a real tiny face if that makes sense (maybe I like a little longer muzzle too). I guess I am looking for a bit bigger of a Papillon (10-12lbs at least, preferably) - is that even possible when going through a breeder? Any one know of any breeders specifically that may have a bit larger dogs?

    I was just looking some up on petfinder, and for example I really like the look of this dog, but not sure I'd ever be able to get something similar through a breeder.

    [​IMG]

    I don't like the amount of fringe on this dog, even though it's gorgeous. I'm pretty sure it would drive me crazy and I'd want to cut it, LOL
    [​IMG]

    And I wouldn't want a thick coat like this, it reminds me of a Pom.
    [​IMG]

    I REALLY like the look of this dog (minus the ears)
    [​IMG]
    And this one:
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    There is quite a bit of variation in papillons. I don't know of anyone specifically breeding larger sizes but usually there will be size variety in any litter. In Misty's last litter the size variation ran from 4lbs to 12 lbs as adults.

    Bitches usually tend to have less fringe (ear hangies) than boys. Unless you're buying byb petlines however you probably won't find one completely without fringe.

    A proper papillon coat is single. You will find some that look a little pomish but these are not correct coats.
     
  3. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Here is one breeder I looked at when I was looking at paps: http://www.braylorspapillons.com/dams.htm They seem to have the kinds of dogs you are looking for. Not FLOOFY, decent sizes, competitive in sports

    Hope it helps :) I think finding the right "type" within the breed for paps, isn't so much about lines, more like specific breeders. There isn't a deep separation like in show/sport border collies
     
  4. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Since their ears are a key characteristic of the breed I really hope people aren't breeding for lack of "butterfly ears".
     
  5. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    Thanks! So I guess it just depends, and each litter kind of varies? I don't want one completely without fringe, I just don't like it over-done personally.

    Thank you! That breeder looks very much along the lines of what I want. I still am not even 100% on a breed - just exploring right now still... but Papillons have sparked my interested over the last three years.

    Oh, I'm not asking for a breeder specifically breeding for lack of butterfly ears. I just didn't know if it was maybe just a matter of different breeders, or individual dogs, etc with HOW long the ears are, or if some trim them, or if it's mostly genetics, etc. It's just not my personal preference to have really long ears. Yorkies are bred often for their long silky coats however I prefer to keep my boy (or any future yorkie) short... it's just a preference.
     
  6. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    Awww, I really like Ivan
    [​IMG]

    I really want to meet more Papillons. I've only met 3 in my lifetime, and I fell in love with them all. The only thing holding me back is the size... unless, like I said, I could find one in the 10+lb range.
     
  7. Kat09Tails

    Kat09Tails *Now with Snark*

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    You won't find someone breeding the 10lb + range on purpose. Most papillons I've met over that weight are an inch or two past the acceptable height limit.
     
  8. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    Wow I think he's really handsome!

    I do agree with you though I wish I could find some on the larger size. But I disagree about the ears! I love the ear fur!
     
  9. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Paps vary a LOT between individuals. To give you an idea:

    These are half sisters. Different sires but same dam and same 'types' of lines. Their dam was pushing 10 lbs and Summer is 8.1 lbs and Rose is 6 lbs on a heavy day.

    [​IMG]
    roses by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

    [​IMG]
    5 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

    There's some minor variations between Swedish dogs and English dogs and American dogs but not so much that if you're not very educated in the breed that you would really be able to pick them out so well.

    Summer is 8 lbs and sturdy and just barely within height standards. I love Summer's type a lot, she's my favorite out of my dogs. Her granddam was very similar looking but to be honest neither of them is really a show type dog.

    Mia's littermate is tiny and then her half brother is huge. One of her brothers has holy crap ear fringe lol. She actually has quite a bit. And then her littermate almost has none. Just lots of variation and imo hard to predict. Bitches have less coat in general.

    Ear fringe is honestly part of the breed since it's what the breed is named after. It's really not hard to groom or a hassle at all. A proper papillon coat isn't going to be much maintenance. MUCH easier than Ada's yorkie coat even though she had shorter hair.

    There are a lot of big rescue papillons that might have less coat out there though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2012
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I do find in GENERAL the Swedish/Japanese lines have the ridiculously long fringe more often. But Mia's brother Monkey has just as much. Rose is English/American lines and has a ton.

    If I hadn't spayed Summer she'd have kept this coat:

    [​IMG]

    What you see on Summer now is actually a spay coat as ridiculous as it is at how short it still is for the breed. Of course she's kind of a fluke and the breeder had no idea as a puppy that she wouldn't grow a coat.

    Here is Rose pre-spay

    [​IMG]

    And Beau pre- neuter.

    [​IMG]

    Altering really makes a big difference.
     
  11. Jynx

    Jynx New Member

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    My sister has two paps that she does agility with, Jacque is a son of the westminster winner, and definitely out of show lines, he's a poofy boy, but not "overly" poofy..
    He's got a ton of agility titles, and really does love it.

    Her other pap came from not the 'greatest' of breeders, he's oversize, definitely not as poofy, and I'd say not as "pretty" as Jacque..But, that dog can run, he is a wild man, and can do 50 sec courses in 13.

    Jacque is more 'stuck up" I'd say:)) PeeAire (and yes that's how she spells his name!) is much more outgoing, has HUGE prey drive, and quite the little comedian.

    I see alot of people in agility getting into paps, they are small, compact and can run like the wind, but I do see alot of variety when it comes to structure.
     
  12. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    I've seen a lot of them but never met/pet one. Are they pretty sturdy dogs? They don't look like it but I'm not imagining much 'sturdy' build under all the fur. I could be wrong.

    The only issue I've had with smaller dogs is that I always feel like I'm going to break them so I end up being kind of paranoid :(
     
  13. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    They're not 'sturdy' like say a bulldog. Under that fur they are lanky little dogs. I watch mine closely around rough children and big, unruly dogs. My dogs HATE boxer/retriever/pit bull type play. Most mine are good with children though but I do keep a close eye on them.

    They are sturdy in that they're built to run and jump and a lot have way more drive than most toy dogs. They are really fast for their size. My dogs fool everyone. It has been very consistent at agility class that my guys are among the fastest dogs both in speed but also in picking up he exercises in the classes. Today the people in Summer's class were amazed she was 8 and the oldest dog there by far. That's what keeps me coming back to these guys above all else. They are just so much fun to work with. Very intuitive, a little bit crazy, and always having a grand old time.
     
  14. Cali Mae

    Cali Mae Little dog, big voice

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    I'd say Laurelin did a pretty good job describing them right there.. as that sums Cali up to a tee (aside from the overly affectionate, eager to make new friends part). She's ridiculously fast for a 5lb dog, sometimes we'll be playing fetch and I'll be waiting for her to come back and then I'll look down and notice that she's already returned with the ball haha. I really think that if anybody wanted a "big dog in a small package", then a Papillon would be the way to go.

    I can't really say much about lines and such, but if you were looking at a breeder, just look at the future pup's pedigree and look at their coats. And yes, altering does seem to affect the majority.. Cali has a fair bit of ear fringe but not a whole lot of fur on her body. Her tail is pretty long though.
     
  15. JacksonsMom

    JacksonsMom Active Member

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    Thanks! I really do think I would love them. Just wish I had more hands on experience with them.

    I'm so hesitant to stray far from what I know... but at the same time, I think I got really really lucky with Jackson and I really think if I get another terrier, and expect it to be like him, it's not going to happen and I'll end up with a gazillion terrier qualities that I hate :rofl1: So I kind of just want to try something else out. It's why I've been looking at some herders lately that I never would have before. I want the loyalty, the devotion, the ease to train, and drive, and also want a dog that is somewhat aloof yet friendly enough (but not necessarily timid) AND can be a fairly good "bombproof" dog that is able to go anywhere (and not worry too much about DA/DR, etc). That's what I have with Jackson... the only thing I really want is a fetching dog LOL... I really want a dog who will love to play fetch. :D I have to really get Jackson into it by myself being excited too.

    At this point, another dog is at least 1 year away but probably more like 2. So just like exploring some other options... and Paps always end up back on my list. It's just their darn size. :( I just kind of want a dog as much as Jackson (16lbs), or bigger (or only a tad smaller). But their drive is what keeps pulling me back to them, irregardless.
     
  16. Cranberry

    Cranberry New Member

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    Some of the photos you posted are of young papillons, which is why they have shorter coats and less fringe. They don't tend to get their full coat until they're almost two. :)

    My Crystal weighs 9-10 lbs at a good, healthy weight. She's a little tall for a papillon at 11.75 inches -- tall enough to be faulted in the ring but not disqualified. She came from a very good show breeder. I don't think it's too hard to find slightly oversized papillons from good breeders. In my case, Crystal was held back as a show prospect but ended up having a growth spurt. I got her when she was a year old and I got a nice discount on the price, too.

    I've also found that the American lines have less fringe and might be more like what you want. Keep in mind that the ears are not supposed to be pointy, so if you like that look you might be better off going through a rescue because a good show breeder probably won't have many like that.

    I also think that papillons in photographs tend to look like they have more fringe and coat than they actually do in real life. Crystal sometimes looks like she has quite a bit of coat in photos:

    [​IMG]

    But really her coat and fringe are not profuse and are extremely easy to care for. I run a pin brush through her coat once a week and I bathe her once a month. I trim her feet and hocks around bath time, and that's it.

    It's a little easier to tell that her fur's fairly short when she's damp:

    [​IMG]

    I hate seeing papillons clipped. It won't really hurt them (unless it's too short and they can sunburn), but it just looks stupid to me. Personal preference. :)

    Also, in general, the red and whites (not sable like Crystal and Summer, but true red and whites) seem to have less coat and less fringe. Females, like Laurelin said, also have less fringe and coat. Keep an eye out for an American line red and white female. ;)
     

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