Other Horse Owners.

Discussion in 'Cat and Pet Forum' started by darkchild16, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    Okay so like i said on Friday i went to Red Hills but the night before i went to a rodeo that some of my students were riding in. I was talking to another BR that I grew up with and has seen me race and train for years. Well we were talking and i told her about Ranger and how i planned to get a Mustang in a year or two from the BLM. She was trying to explain how getting one from a breeder might be a better idea and better for starting a breeding program but I dont see the issue in breeding a BLM horse. They were wild captured or bred then adopted out. I know the sire i would use and hes got a great start to his career and will continue to amaze in the years to follow. Now im starting to hear from others that breeding a BLM horse is unethical. What do you think? I jsut dont see it that way.
     
  2. Kmh1

    Kmh1 Member

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    So if I understand correctly you want to get a BLM Mustang Filly and then breed her eventually---to what kind of stud? Your goal is to have barrel racing horse right?
    I guess like with anything else --do your research and also carefully evaluate and have others evaluate what they think about the possible breeding when the time comes. Forgive me, I know very little about mustangs-I've seen a few here and there and they seemed like ok trail horses. I haven't known any mustang performance horses. Are they know for there speed and turning ability and trainablity?
    I would imagine someone who breeds mustangs in a controlled setting such as Kieger (sp?) mustangs would probably select for certain traits and overtime you probably get a more conformationally "correct" animal. The breeding quality of a BLM rescue would really depend on the individual and what you hope to do with the offspring--just like with dogs--its a little more chancy to breed when you don't know what is behind the dog (or the horse).
    Like I said, I don't know the first thing about mustang performance abilities in general---most of the barrel racers in my area are Quarter horses and paints--QH have been bred forever to be sprinters and tend to excel in that sport from what I've seen. Good luck with your horse search and remember to post lots of pics when you get one!
     
  3. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    Mustang stud. i want to breed br mustangs. I know a few people who use them and quite a few who want to transition to them. They are actually very good barrel horses IF you know waht you are doing. they are not for the first time horse owner OBVIOUSLY LOL.
    Of course i would do the research and all that but they are saying because you cant track their lineage that they are not a breed you can ethically breed. Which i dont particularly believe. Ranger wasnt registered and neither is Trace (the stud). I dotn think a horse has to be registerable to be bred but then again that comes from my ranching lifestyle where there wasnt "controlled" breeding.
     
  4. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    I have two questions about it. I'm not criticizing your plan, just curious.

    1) Unless they're from isolated regions where outside animals couldn't get in, aren't mustangs pretty much a mix of whatever horses got loose from the first days of European exploration to today? I realize horse breeding is more performance-oriented than dog breeding, and not as hungup on purebreds, but

    2) Is it possible to get consistent traits from mustangs once they're taken from the wild? I mean, I've read that they're studier than domesticated horses, better hooves, get along better with other horses, etc. - ie, all advantages of being wild with natural culling, etc. - but once they're in captivity, don't those advantages become lost in the next generation?

    Again, just curious. I've never really thought about people breeding mustangs to keep them alive as a breed in domestication. I knew about the roundups and auctions, but never really thought beyond that.
     
  5. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    I know a few people who do and have had great success in it. They dont breed alot and only with eachother.

    Mustangs are in essence a mix of all types of horses BUT they are also a "breed". How i want to breed alot would be very close to their "wild" ancestors. I plan to adopt most of my breeding stock from the BLM and only breed the offspring if they have the correct traits for my stock. If you do not breed in domesticated breeds they tend to keep their wild characteristics for example the sturdier hooves and herd mentality. But it also comes from teh way you raise them. Mine will spend 50% of the year"wild" and the other 50% in captivity so to speak. Meaning when they are in the "wild" they will not be coming into the barn or any of that they will live in the pastures as horses. Then the other percentage they will live in the barn and go to rodeos, train, normal domesticated things.
     
  6. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    Interesting. It would have to be a very specialized management program, I guess. Good luck!
     
  7. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    IT is and its going to be alot of work. But its my dream so you do it and all the work associated. also did i mention im insane LOL.
     
  8. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Well, I'm involved with warmbloods, which are not "purebred" in any sense of the word. Most warmbloods aren't techinically breeds at all. So I have no issues with the idea of breeding crossbreds correctly.

    I also don't know a ton about mustangs or barrel racing, so take it all with a grain of salt. I have, however, spent quite a bit of time around a very successful performance breeding farm.

    Here's the issues I see with the plan:

    How old of a mustang would you be looking to adopt? I was under the impression that it is usually young (foals or maybe yearlings) mustangs that are adopted out. It is impossible to tell at that age if a horse is going to be breeding quality, yet you seem very set on having this horse as the foundation sire for your "herd". Are you willing to wait and honestly evaluate the horse when it is five or so? Are you okay with the idea that this horse may make a better gelding?

    The same thing will apply to the mares you intend to adopt. There is a pretty small percentage of horses out there who are truly worthy of being bred for performance. Are you willing to accept that you may have to adopt these mares, let them grow up, and then sell 50% or more of them as pleasure horses? Will each of them be trained and evaluated as barrel horses? Even if you can judge their conformation and how it relates to performance, how will you know if they have the right temperment for sport if you don't do some training with them?

    Do you intend to sell the offspring of your horses? What is the market for them like? I can't imagine feral horses would stay "domesticated" for long if they lived wild in a herd for half the year. I can't believe how "feral" some of the babies at our farm can get if they live outside for a week without regular handling! Again, a lot of your offspring won't be super performance stock. No matter how careful you are, some are just going to be okay pleasure/backyard type horses. The people who are out to buy that type of horse are not going to be very successful with a mostly feral horse. As you've stated, these are not good horses for first time owners. But the people who can manage this type of horse aren't going to want one that isn't a great sport prospect.

    Is it ethical to breed these horses? In my personal opinion...no. The BLM is constantly dealing with the fact that there are too many of their mustangs and not enough land for them. You are going to be breeding BLM to BLM, and producing yet another BLM who needs a home. People can go out and adopt their own from the wild herd. It's not as if you are taking a BLM stallion and outcrossing it to a different type of horse; you are just creating more of what there is already a surplus of. Perhaps if both the mare and stallion had very successful performance careers it would be different.

    Are you still thinking about going away to college? I know that was something you had posted about with Ranger a while ago. Finding a place to board a "one-person" stallion such as Ranger would have been challenging. Finding a place to board an adopted mustang stallion who is used to living wild half the year will be much harder. Perhaps this is all better left until after college?

    I know from previous posts that we don't agree on a lot of things about horse breeding, and that's okay. But please do think through these points. You may have a perfectly reasonable answer for each of them - like I said, the breed and sport aren't my specialties;) ! It sounds like there are others in your sport that see some holes in your plans as well. Perhaps you could have some honest discussions about their concerns? These "devil's advocates" may be able to help you with your planning by pointing out shortcomings you will need to be aware of.

    Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
     
  9. Plear

    Plear New Member

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    Uh, wow, BostonBanker saved me a lot of typing. Now I can just say a couple of words:
    "I" and "agree" and "with" and "BostonBanker".
    Yay! LOL
     
  10. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    my answers in red.
     
  11. Gustav

    Gustav Don't encourage me..

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    Ok, first question.. What on earth is BLM?!

    And secondly, I do have to agree with BostonBanker.. A very good post indeed. ;) Although it may not be what you want to hear Breezy gal! LOL!

    I imagine that you can pick the yearlings and foals up pretty cheap at the round ups? You can in the UK with the New Forest ponies, so what is it about your foals, which in essence are the same thing, that is going to make people want to pay more money for them? When you are in a serious breeding program, you will inevitably HAVE to sell off youngstock.. This is taken as read, you can't possibly keep them all just in case. Think of the land and time issue involved with only 10 youngsters! And you would be adding to that every year! Would get far too much all too quickly, and only breeding one or two a year wouldn't keep the bank manager from your door!

    Also, not many people I know would happily stable their horses with essentially wild horses.. The risks are quite large even if they appear tame and calm all the time, so you would miss out on any livery business at your barn, which can be all important "Top up" money! It's a regular income! ;)

    And from what I understand of the Mustang, correct me if I am wrong here... They aren't overly large?! So your potential buyer would have to be a small adult, or VERY capable child. And here in lies the problem, a child can lose confidence very quickly when they are outhorsed!! :(

    Is there really a market for that many Barrel horses a year? Are there enough potential customers for pleasure horses?!

    Turning them out for half the year sounds idyllic doesn't it, but it causes MAJOR issues with "Feral" horses. It happened to a friend of mine, she bought a New Forest, backed her and everything was going swimmingly, she turned her away to mature, and she reverted to a wild pony.. We couldn't catch the darn thing for 6 months, and she was a total she devil when we did!! It took my friend a further YEAR to get her back to where she was when she was turned away. Luckily she wasn't in a hurry and she was a bit of a pet project, but if she was buying and schooling to sell again, it would have been awful! Think another whole year before you would get any money from that horse, and another years worth of winter feed, vets bills, and farrier, not to mention worming and all those other little bits and pieces that soon add up.

    Not trying to rain on your parade, just giving you food for thought! ;)
     
  12. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    The Bureau of Land Management, who rounds up the mustangs and sells them.

    OT, I know, but Gustav, what is the general quality of the feral New Forest Ponies? I've seen ads for some pretty spectacular stallions here, mostly dressage or eventing ponies. Are these the "cream of the crop", or are there really ponies of that quality running around loose? Should I bring my cowboy farrier over to rope me a dressage star?
     
  13. Gustav

    Gustav Don't encourage me..

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    So it doesn't mean Burgered Leg of Mustang then! ;)

    Errm, it varies HUGELY! Some years there will be ponies well worth a punt, but other years it can be very dire! New Forests are notorious for changing shape as they grow too, so something that looks promising as a youngster can look like a Donkey when mature, and the scrawny little runt can be a cracker. Confirmational faults almost go hand in hand with New Forests, to get a well put together one is like trying to find hens teeth! Having said that though, they make very sweet family pets, and great for kids! They're very forgiving, even for semi wild ponies.

    But yeah, if you scoured the New Forest long and hard enough, you would probably find something worth taking home.. Sadly that is illegal! LOL! You have to wait for the yearly round up, and buy them out of the pens like everyone else! ;)
     
  14. joce

    joce Active Member

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    I jsut don't see the point of breeding them when the whole point of the sales in the first place is to find them a good home-let them breed in the wild. Now if you were to take them in young and train them that would be a whole nother thing.
     
  15. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    Oh, legal/shmegal. I'm sure they wouldn't notice if one was missing, would they? If you see one of these in the pens or wandering aimlessly around, let me know, okay?

    [​IMG][/IMG]
     
  16. Gustav

    Gustav Don't encourage me..

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    Ok, i'll raid the New Forest next time I am in the UK.. My parents only live an hour away after all! LOL!
     
  17. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    answers in red
     
  18. Gustav

    Gustav Don't encourage me..

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    How can you be sure that they will have performance horses in their background? Aren't they just wild horses that they corral and sell off? :confused:
     
  19. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    not far off but all of them before i will even think of breeding them will be proven in preformance events.
     
  20. Kase

    Kase New Member

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    Very ambitious Breeze! Is the actual breeding something you really want to do or would you be happy with buying the horses off of the moor and training them up rather than breeding them as well. Seen as though there are so many of them.

    Oh and another question, are mustangs registered with a breed society? is there a set standard? I really don't have a clue.
     

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