Opening Stud Books...

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by sillysally, Jul 27, 2014.

  1. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I know that there has been discussion on opening stud books on here before to improve certain breeds. When it comes to your own breed/breeds of choice, would you want to see it happen? If so, what breeds would you want to see allowed to cross in, would you want some sort of approval process for said dogs, and what goals would you want accomplished by the the crossbreeding?
     
  2. Moth

    Moth Mild and Slightly Nutty

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    Actually the basenji stud book is open for bringing in new dogs from Africa. They need to go through a vetting/approval process before they are used in breeding programs, but every year people bring a few more basenjis over :)

    As a matter of fact the breed club just recently voted and extended the time period that the stud book remains open.

    I think if handled correctly it could be such a good thing for many breeds. Any time you increase genetic diversity in a population it is a good thing.

    Out-crossing does not have to be the devil...it could be a game changer for some breeds that are dealing with devastating health issues due to the small populations size of the breeding pool.
     
  3. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    Border Collies, ABCA, is open. It's darn hard to get registered on merit, but it's open.
     
  4. Paviche

    Paviche Duuuuude.

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    I'm against closed studbooks overall, regardless of breed. Whether the breed is currently suffering or not, having a closed studbook is inevitably detrimental in the long run.

    I don't know enough about the breed OR breeding to claim I know what the best outcross options would be, so take the following with a grain of salt.

    My first thought would be field-type English Setters/Llewellin Setters to help retain hunting instinct. They are somewhat similar in coat/build, and not too different in temperament that it would be hard to breed back to true Brittany temperament. Llewellins, from what I know (fairly cursory research) are fairly healthy dogs. Hip dysplasia and hypothyroid are the two main things it seems, and those are already present in Brittanys.

    The pointer is another option. The hunting style is similar. I am not too familiar with temperament and health issues.

    Maybe the GSP - again, similar hunting style, somewhat different temperament though. They have some health issues not common in Brittanys, so that's something to consider. Cancer is more prominent in GSPs than in Brittanys. DM is something else I'd be concerned about, because from what I've seen it's not really an issue in Brittanys but is known in GSPs.

    Vizslas... my experience with Vs has been that temperament-wise, they're very similar to Brittanys, and from reading they're similar in style as well. Again, I'd be concerned about cancer. Epilepsy is something to look out for in Vizslas, but it's also something to look for in Brittanys, so it wouldn't necessarily be something new introduced to the breed.

    I don't honestly have any goals for outcrossing, so to speak. Genetic diversity is enough for me, and Brittanys aren't so plagued by any particular health issue that I think outcrossing alone is the solution, such as the Dalmatian project. I'm not sure about approval, honestly, but I like the Chinook club's process on outcrossing and breeding back to "purebred" status: http://www.chinook.org/faq-cross.html
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    In my ideal world conformation shows would go bye bye completely. I could see the benefit of having some sort of conformation title or certificate though- just a simple evaluation saying yes this dog is built well and looks like the breed. Take away the competitiveness because imo its the breeding for the higher levels that is a big issue. Of course I've heard the argument that the SV system still has flaws. Not saying it's THE solution but I think it'd help weed out some of the extreme extremes....

    Closed studbooks- I think they're a bad bad bad idea across the board. It is not healthy for any population and no matter how much you try to breed responsibly you will inevitably end up with a shrinking and shrinking genepool to work with. Every generation loses some diversity (even if minimal). Populations need genetic diversity to be healthy. **** may not hit the fan now or 50 years down the road but it will eventually.

    What I'd like to see more than anything else is a register on merit kind of deal or having different registration 'grades'. It seems pretty common in non-dog registries. The koolie registry seems to do something similar that I thought was really neat. You have different levels of registration for known crosses, unregistered dogs, and purebreds of a certain generation. I'm not sure the best way to do so but I love the idea. I'd have to look up the specifics for koolies but the basic idea is there's A, B, and C classes. So for an A class dog you'd know the dog is a purebred. A B class might have one A class parent and one unknown foundation dog (C class). If you bred a B class to an A class the resulting puppies would be A class, etc. I've seen in one case (Clumbers in Sweden) where the dogs were shown and then admitted in after being determined to be of a certain quality (I believe these dogs were 3/4ths Clumber, 1/4th another breed).

    More than bringing in random breeds I think it is important to be able to bring in dogs that are unregistered but clearly X breed or dogs that are mostly X breed after a certain amount of generations.

    You know at this point save a few breeds (bred for work or performance) I am pretty sure most my dogs will be mixes. I've struggled with the whole 'responsible breeder' deal a long, long time. It has never jived with my background in genetics and anything I learned in genetics classes. I spent my first three years in college in biochemistry and genetics and it just... doesn't fit at all. It doesn't fit with how other animal registries work either. There is almost always a way to pull in new blood. Dog registries are just very outdated.

    I'd also love to see more pedigreed mixed breeds out there like Alaskan huskies. Breeding types bred to do something (even if something is a pet) and health tested, records kept, etc. To me that is probably the BEST way to breed healthy dogs but it's just not done much...

    If I were rich I'd start some sort of breeding program along those lines.
     
  6. straw

    straw New Member

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    That is a super cool idea.
     
  7. Elrohwen

    Elrohwen Active Member

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    Yes, I'd be very interested in opening the stud books for Welsh springer spaniels. They are a rare breed and genetic material is limited, and I'm all for increasing genetic diversity. There aren't any specific health issues that aren't prevalent in related breeds (HD mostly) so it would be more about increasing genetic diversity than anything.

    I like that Welsh are more utilitarian than the other show bred spaniels (moderate coat and conformation), and that they retain some hunting instincts, so I would want to cross in working line English springers and English cockers. I wouldn't have any interest in crossing in show line dogs of either breed really - they have too much coat for me, some temperament issues (that Welshies don't seem to have), and they have been bred away from their original purpose.

    Field spaniels could also be a good choice, though they are in a similar position to Welshies - a rare breed with limited genetic material, and I have heard that Welshies were used to revive the breed so they probably would not add as much as the ESS and ECS would. They also seem to be bred primarily for conformation (like Welshies).

    Spaniels were all interbred about 150 years ago, and I have no issues doing it again. I like the idea of some sort of alternative registry system like Laurelin mentioned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2014
  8. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    I'm all for open stud books. As Lauren said, when you study biochemistry and genetics, and compare it to other animal breeding registries, such as horses, it's all confusing and just doesn't make sense. New blood is incredibly important, IMO.

    I've always had a fantasy about resurrecting Sibes with a little Alaskan blood and a few select dogs. I would love to open up the gene pool and improve the breed. But I would be way too controlling and stern about it, just because there would be a lot of specific things I wouldn't want in my lines. And that is ultimately where everyone would argue and splinter, just as they do now. One person's vision of a great idea doesn't always jive with someone else's.

    Dog breeding is a whole lot of opinions, and that is always where the divide is going to be. Realistically, if you want the dog you want, you should breed for it. But how many people are going to agree? Look at the divides in Border Collies, German Shepherds, Sibes, Labs, etc. A closed stud book didn't stop it, an open stud book would be chaos.

    But, hey. I'm totally down for new breeds and new ideas that would come from new blood. It would be worth it in the long run. Short term might suck a little, though, until everyone figured out what they were doing. But I think it would do a lot of good for working breeds especially.
     
  9. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    Laurelin wins the thread. She said anything I would have said.
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Aww shucks. :eek:

    I've been thinking about it more and I do really like the idea of a grade system or an appendix registry. I'd want the method of obtaining a full status outlined. It would need to be rigorous enough that JQP couldn't register his great dane as a papillon but not so rigorous that new dogs are never brought in. I just really believe there should be a method available to bring in unregistered dogs that appear to be X breed and also crossbreds of X breed (after a determined amount of generations and through whatever pre-determined screening process).

    I was thinking back on when I had shelties. We had Trey who was our first dog from a 'good breeder'. She showed and did sports with her dogs. Then we had Nikki who was from a newspaper- a couple bred their two dogs and out came Nikki. There were no 'well bred dogs' in several generations. I had papers on both though and got to doing pedigree research on them. I even bought a huge book about shelties and sheltie lineages (I still have it!). I was pretty shocked when I realized that both go back to many of the same dogs. Despite one being well bred and the other not, the genepool in the US is actually pretty small and they shared a lot of ancestors. Ch Wee Laird o'Downfield shows up a lot in both of them. In fact that one dog makes up around 25% of the modern American sheltie pedigree. So pretty much any sheltie x any other sheltie is like they share a grandparent.

    http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Imports/WeeLaird.html
     
  11. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I really think a place to start, at least with working breeds (or breeds that still claim to be working breeds) would be to look at the sport horse registries. Not the American ones, which are mostly a joke, but the European ones.

    "Out crosses" of certain breeds are permitted in many of them - with rules. They must be certain breeds (No, you quarter horse can't be approved as a breeding animal for Hanoverians, but your thoroughbred may be). They must pass inspections for conformation and movement. Health tests (x-rays). They may be able to be accepted based on exceptional performance.

    You'd have to alter things a lot for dogs, obviously. But there is certainly an interesting base to work off if you start there.
     
  12. Julee

    Julee UNSTOPPABLE

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    I have a question that goes along with this topic, I'm hoping someone will know.

    Will AKC accept dogs from other registries as purebreds to be shown and used as breeding stock? CKC, FCI, UKC, European registries, Asian registries, etc? I'm unsure how that works.
     
  13. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    I think this has the information you're looking for?
    http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/GASPEC.pdf
     
  14. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Bernard's pedigree is almost all FCI and JKC dogs. In fact in papillons when we were showing we were the oddball having a dog that was NOT at least half Swedish/Finnish or Japanese. Several of the big specials were straight imports. I could go on about that and my thoughts on that whole deal but I won't. Suffice it to say I think there was too much emphasis on looks and typey dogs and not on health.

    In other breeds its probably less common because the American show type is very different than the show type overseas.
     
  15. Julee

    Julee UNSTOPPABLE

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  16. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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  17. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    As long as it's an approved registry, yes. Both of Mira's parents are imports and their parents are not AKC registered but they are as is Mira.
     

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