On Resurrecting breeds

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Zoom, Oct 10, 2006.

  1. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Delisay's post got me to thinking. We already know how adament this board is when it comes to responsible breeding and breeding to fill a niche, etc. Ok, so I pose this question to you all.

    Let's take the Doberman, a fairly new purebred as far as time goes, and one that was bred for a specific purpose. Now, we've all seen the genetic decline this breed has taken in the last 20 years and someone once posted that it has been hypothesized that the Dobe will go extinct sometime in the next 25 years due to all the increasing and overwhelming health problems. Now, we have a decent idea of what dogs were used to first create this breed, though not exact as Louis Dobermann didn't keep very good records.

    The real question: Would it be A) ethical and B)worth trying to resurrect/recreate this breed? The Doberman 2.0 as it were...since we now know how to screen for all sorts of problems, do you think it would be possible to bring back the Doberman of old, but this time as a line relatively free from Wobbler's, heart problems and the overwhelming prevalence of bone cancers?

    As a general curiosity, I would love to see the results from this. The "Chaz" side of me is already going "we don't need more mutts!" :rolleyes:
     
  2. ~Dixie's_Mom~

    ~Dixie's_Mom~ ♥Chloe & Violet♥

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    That's a good question. Cavaliers, are another breed with significant health issues...
     
  3. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    double post
     
  4. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Cavs are another example of what happens when one uses a very small gene pool to try and bring back an already extinct breed. They couldn't test for heart problems back then, and the foundation studs were mainly picked for being the Blenheim color with the lozenge in the middle of their forehead. A good example of what happens when breeding for a specific color too, I think.

    With the Dobes, I think if it was made perfectly clear that the dogs up for general sale are on spay/neuter only, sold for a reasonable price (like $100) and are to be loved as pets.
     
  5. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    If it was done the right way I wouldnt have a problem with it :)

    There is just the question of "What would be the right way to go about it"
     
  6. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

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    I think in certain circumstances, it's ethical to bring in other breeds to "strengthen" a breed. For example, you mix breed XYZ, which doesn't have the dobie health problems, with the doberman to bring the health problems under control. Then, by selectively breeding, you breed back towards purebred doberman termperament and appearance until the dog appears to be completely dobie again, only hopefully with less health problems. Unfortunately, under current show standards, you can't do that and ever have a purebred dog from that line again so . . . yeah, I don't know.

    Bringing back extinct breeds . . . I don't see a point in it unless they fulfilled a function that no modern dog can. :/
     
  7. joce

    joce Active Member

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    I may be kinda lost but I think if they just stopped byb it would help.

    there are plenty of helathy dobes and if the idiots would stop breeding I think they would be fine.

    Now if the breed was down to 100 dogs and not a one of them healthy I'd see a point but there are healthy dogs now.

    and if it did get that bad then they could do soemthing like a horse breeding program were they breed back one of another breed somewere in the line to strengthen or add something,But never end the lines completely.
     
  8. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    It would certainly benefit the German Shepherd breed . . .
     
  9. casablanca1

    casablanca1 Happy

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    Would it be A) ethical and B)worth trying to resurrect/recreate this breed?

    I don't know. It's a beautiful breed, and I think it would be sad to see it vanish, but do I think it's worth the creation of more puppies to do it? On the other hand, their core purpose as guard and police/military dogs still exists, and I'm not exactly enthusiastic about the many breeds which have come up to take their place in private homes. If you're looking for an 'impressive/intimidating' dog as a pet in a city or densely-populated suburb, Dobermans are a more reasonable choice in size and weight and behavior. Filas, Presas, etc., are simply unsuitable for many situations, but more and more that's what I'm seeing.
     
  10. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    I don't have a problem with any breed re-creation, or the formation of a new breed, as long as it is done responsibly. A breed should be created (or re-created) to a specific standard, and with a specific purpose in mind. And of course, ethical breeding practices should be followed: spay/neuter contract, health checks, following the standard, etc.
     
  11. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    I think it would be a good idea if done by ethical breeders, but I have to say I'm still quite partial to today's Dobes. A lot has gone into the breed, and while there are some health problems in ALL lines, they are not as prevalent in high-quality lines as they are in BYB/mill dogs. I agree with Joce that getting rid of the BYBs would do a world of good.

    Are the health problems in the breed exclusive to North American dogs or are they common worldwide? Do Dobermans in Europe, for example, suffer from the same diseases that American dogs do? I assume if so many Doberman lines are affected by the same diseases, that the problem had to start early on with Louis Dobermann's selection of dogs?
     
  12. MomOf7

    MomOf7 Evil Kitty taco eater

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    I would like to see science get into this. Have a genetic specialist do specific tests on al dogs being used to, I hate the word re-create but to pro create better lines.
    This of course would take years to get just right and have sound or more to the standard type pups.
    Just think if we had the science then that we do now how much better the breeds today would be?
     
  13. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    An interesting concept , but as long as today's standards are posted and most good breeders have Championships in mind , I don't think it would work . DNA would be a good way to go though . I sure would love to see the old Goldens !! But , if you look into how these dogs came to be, there's no way it could be duplicated today !
     
  14. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    Zoom, that's a very interesting idea. The challenge with so many good and interesting ideas, is how to practically coordinate and implement them.

    If, after much lengthy discussion among breeders, kennel clubs, etc, they decided "let's do it" ... there would need to be a coordinated process of introducing certain genes, then wide enough crossing among the new stock so as not to repeat the old inbreeding error ... and doing this in a coordinated fashion though several generations.

    It could certainly be done, but would take great leadership on the part of a few key people to make it happen, given the current culture of so many rules which some people get very emotionally attached to. But, there's also a lot of talk these days about the problems that in/line-breeding for showing has caused, so we never know...

    (Also, breed histories show that some current breeds seem to be derived literally from a single litter by a single breeder, so it's no wonder they have problems.)

    Del.
     
  15. MomOf7

    MomOf7 Evil Kitty taco eater

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    were having a discussion right now in another forum about the split between Field bred labs and Show or Bench labs. Most of the people believe we will never get back to the original dual CH and FCs.
    Also how judges are interpreting the standard for the Show type labs.
    They have made it now to where a judge can bring out a ruler to measure the show labs. I would like to see them bring out a scale too.
    Interesting reading
    http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37407
     
  16. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Agree ! Personally I feel that the show ring has ruined many breeds ... while the obedience and trial classes still show the true values of the original breeding .
     
  17. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    thats an intersting question. don't know enough about breeding to tackle it though =]
     
  18. Ashlea

    Ashlea New Member

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    I agree with you so much I don't even have the words to say. I went to a field test the other day and to watch those gorgeous sleek labs work in comparison to Conan (my friends show line lab) was amazing!

    Don't get me wrong, Conan is a beaut! He really is, he is just 85 kgs of unmanagble year old lab! HUGE, big head and all paws!
     

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