OMFG...NOT what you wanna see in your neighborhood!!

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Red Chrome, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    humans have always lived in their territories (or they in ours), it's not a china/india thing w/ clearly drawn borders.
    in the USA the only fatal attacks have been in states w/ relatively high population & NO HUNTING SEASON. the states w/ stable or growing populations that have the least number of attacks have been states w/ hound seasons.
    in CA after they banned hunting them, the number of lions killed as nuisances/threats actually went UP from the sport hunting harvest. now no one knows what's going on in the cats' minds but it is not unreasonable to believe the lack of human threat increased their boldness & aggression toward humans & livestock.
     
  2. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Yes, I realize that there aren't and never were clear boundaries between wild life and humans...that we've always over lapped territories and lived among wild life, including cougars. Okay, now that we've got that settled, I guess I'll try spelling out what I mean. We live in huge clusters...there are a lot of humans, more than ever before. So, naturally….odds and everything…there are bound to be more encounters. As they become less afraid of humans due to seeing more humans, they can become more dangerous and begin to see us as prey, especially children and adults running. But they are still extremely rare.


    http://www.mountainlion.org/sport_hunting.asp


    http://www.newwest.net/topic/article/oregons_assumptions_on_cougar_hunting_misplaced/C564/L564/


    Will Killing More Cougars Decrease Potential Conflicts with People and Livestock?
    Research at the Washington State University Carnivore Conservation Laboratory found that heavy hunting of cougars*increases*conflicts*between humans and cougars, contrary to presumptions of wildlife management programs designed to continually increase kill numbers.*Read detailed comments by Dr. Wielgus, Director of WSU lab



    Secondly, research studies in Washington have shown that increased cougar
    removal/killing actually exacerbates risk to the public by creating an unnatural number of juvenile cougars in the population. Juveniles have been shown to be the age class most frequently involved in conflicts with people. Although there has never been a documented attack on a person by a cougar in the state of Oregon, the ODFW may be pushing its luck by continuing to manage cougars in a manner that science has found increases cougar-human conflicts.


    http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/cougars_biologist_weighs_in_November_2010.pdf



    Cougars at Risk

    "For the animal shall not be measured by man.**
    In a world older and more complete than ours,*
    they move finished and complete, gifted with*
    extensions and the senses we have lost or*
    never attainted, living by voices we shall*
    never hear.* They are not brethren, they are*
    not underlings, they are other nations."


    Quote by Henry Beston
    Photo by George Wuerthner

    Elusive and extremely shy, America's extraordinarily beautiful wildcat, the cougar, was called "the spirit of the mountains" by Native Americans.
    Cougars pose very little threat to people, yet each year thousands are needlessly killed for sport. We're working to protect this keystone species.*

    Will Killing More Cougars Decrease Potential Conflicts with People and Livestock?
    Research at the Washington State University Carnivore Conservation Laboratory found that heavy hunting of cougars*increases*conflicts*between humans and cougars, contrary to presumptions of wildlife management programs designed to continually increase kill numbers.*Read detailed comments by Dr. Wielgus, Director of WSU lab


    He's One Cool Cat:


    History and Lifestyle of America's Lion
    North America is home to one of the world's most extraordinary and beautiful wild cats, the cougar. Majestic and mysterious, cougars are elusive and secretive by nature.* Because of this, Native Americans referred to them as "the spirit of the mountains."
    Cougars' geographic range once spanned from northern British Columbia to Patagonia, and from the Atlantic to the Pacific coasts.** Because of predator control and habitat loss their range has been diminished by about 50 percent, leaving them primarily inhabiting the western states.
    The chance of ever seeing a cougar, much less being attacked by one, is extremely remote. There has never been a documented cougar attack or fatality in Oregon's history, yet the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife calls for more cougar killing every year in the name of public safety.

    Photo by Bill Dow

    Cougar Facts

    Also known as a mountain lion, panther, ghost cat, catamount and puma, the cougar's Latin name,*felis concolor, means cat of one color.* Adults are tawny brown with black-tips on their ears and their long tails.* On average, females measure 7 feet from nose to tail and weigh between 70 and 100 pounds.* Males may reach up to 8 feet in length and weigh between 130 and 150 pounds.*

    Cougars can live in densely forested regions or in open sagebrush habitats.* Their territories can range from 25 to 100 square miles and they have been known to travel 20 to 25 miles in a single day.* Cougars thrive in habitats that provide a plentiful prey base.*They are active mostly at dusk and dawn.
    Strong and swift, these powerful carnivores prefer deer and elk*as their main source of food; however they may prey on smaller mammals, such as rabbits.* They hunt by stalking their prey and ambushing or springing on it, as opposed to running it down like wolves.* Cougars cache or hide their kills under brush, rocks or in thickets, and return to it to feed.

    Cougars are solitary animals, except during reproductive periods when they are looking for mates and breeding.* As they have no fixed breeding season, kittens have been observed throughout the year.** Gestation lasts three months and the female gives birth alone in a den. Her average litter size is two to three kittens, which she raises by herself.* Male cougars will kill kittens they have not sired, as well as other cougars who move into their territory.
    Cougar kittens are covered with brown spots and have dark rings around their tails. These markings fade around six months of age.* Sexual maturity is attained around age two to three.*

    A cougar's average life span in the wild is approximately 8 to 12 years.* Common causes of death are disease, people (hunters and trappers), bears, or other cougars. Another significant cause of death is being injured or killed while hunting prey. Deer and elk also pose a threat to cougars.*
    Increasing hunting of cougars does not reduce their population size, but it does change the age structure by disrupting their social system.

    will continue
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Cougar Myths Debunked
    Myth
    Cougars are dangerous to humans and pose a risk to those living or recreating in rural areas.
    Facts
    Cougars are the most elusive and least aggressive of the world's large cats.* They are afraid of people and do not recognize or seek us out as prey.* They want to avoid you and not be seen. In fact, you are seen by cougars a lot more frequently than you see them.
    Only 20 people have been killed by cougars in U.S. and Canada in the last 120 years. On the list of the 10 animals most likely to cause death, they are number nine!* Deer are the most dangerous animals, followed by horses.*See top 10 animals most likely to cause death
    In fact, you are at far greater risk from being shot by a hunter, killed by lightning, bees, dogs, or cattle.*For perspective, every year approximately 1,000 people in the U.S. and Canada are shot by*hunters, 100 fatally. In Oregon, five people were shot by hunters in 2011, two fatally.*See list of Oregon hunting victims (as of mid-Nov. 2011)
    *
    ***************
    Myth
    Cougar populations are exploding in Oregon and elsewhere, and must be controlled by hunting.
    Fact
    Cougar populations are "self–regulating."* They are controlled by prey/food availability.* The real reason for this myth is to please/appease hunters who want to justify killing cougars because they compete with them for deer and elk.
    ***************
    Myth
    Increased hunting of cougars is needed to ensure public safety and livestock protection.

    Photo by George Wuerthner
    *
    Fact
    Research in Washington, Arizona, Colorado, California and other states shows that sport hunting does not reduce the risk of cougar attack or conflicts. In fact, it may increase the slight risk of attack by selectively removing large trophy cats, usually dominant males, leaving unnatural numbers of juveniles, the age class associated with conflicts and attacks.* Additionally, hunting takes place in remote wilderness areas, not in populated areas, so the cats that hunters kill are not the cats that might cause conflicts.**Read what WSU experts have found about*the effects of over-hunting.

    *
    ***************
    Myth
    Cougars are decimating deer and elk populations and must be managed to protect prey species.
    Fact
    Deer and elk populations are thriving throughout most of Oregon and other western states.* Deer, elk and cougars have evolved together for millennia and depend on each other for healthy populations and habitat. Learn about*the importance of predators.
    Researchers at Oregon State University (OSU) have galvanized the scientific community with their work demonstrating how critical predators and cougars are to the web of life.
    As Predators Disappear, Ecosystems Suffer*- OSU video
    Impact of a Cougar Decline on Zion Canyon, Zion National Park*-*PARKscience article*

    *
    ***************
     
  4. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Myth
    Hound hunting is necessary to keep cougar numbers down and protect livestock
    Fact
    Hound hunting for sport was banned in Oregon in 1995.* Since then the number of cougars killed in the state has more than doubled (see*cougar mortality statistics). Hound hunting is allowed for public safety and to remove damage-causing cougars, it is only prohibited for use by trophy hunters.
    ***************
    Myth
    The livestock industry is suffering huge losses because of cougar killing sheep and cattle in Oregon.
    Fact
    The Oregon Department of Agriculture survey on wildlife damage showed that out of the $1.5 million dollars in livestock losses due to wildlife predation in Oregon, only .2 percent could be attributed to cougars.* Statewide, losses to wildlife total over $158 million dollars, mostly due to elk and deer damage.* That damage could be minimized by encouraging cougar and other predator population growth.
    ***************
    *
    What to Do If Confronted by a Cougar

    Photo by George Wuerthner
    *
    While cougars do not see humans as a menu item, they are cats!* They will chase a moving target and may mistake small children and pets for prey.
    If confronted by a cougar, never run. Instead make yourself look big and hold small children close to your body. Give the cougar room to escape, back up slowly and stay facing the animal.*
    Never corner a cougar, always give it an easy exit.
    *
    Oregon Cougars: Issues & News
    Oregon Cougar Management: A History of Persecution Driven by the Special Interests of Livestock Producers and the Trophy-Hunting Lobby
    Up until 1960, there was a bounty on cougars in Oregon and no restrictions on hunting them.* By the mid-1960's Oregon's cougar population was in serious decline and the big cats were practically eliminated from the state.* In 1967 cougars were declared game animals, and restrictions on hunting were established which allowed the population to rebound.*
    In 1994 Oregon voters banned the unethical practice of sport hunting cougars and bears with packs of dogs.* Sport hunting used dogs to chase the big cats to exhaustion, making them easy targets for trophy hunters to shoot off tree limbs for sport. While this was forbidden, using hounds to remove cougars that caused damage to property or threatened public safety was never prohibited or restricted.*

    The political backlash to the voters' decision to ban sport hunting was fast and furious. It continues to govern how cougars are "managed" by Oregon's decision-makers.* In response to the unscientific notion that the cougar population would explode without hound hunting, the Fish and Wildlife Commission immediately directed the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife (ODFW) to take measures to keep the cougar population from expanding beyond their questionable estimated size in 1994 (3,000 cougars). Cougar hunting regulations were rapidly liberalized:*
    the hunting season increased from two to four months to year-round
    the bag limit was increased from one to two cougars
    tag fees were reduced dramatically, from $50 to $10
    a cougar tag is now included in the Sport Pac license package
    As a result of these changes, tag sales increased from 500 tags to a whopping 50,000 plus tags sold in 2011.** These changes in regulation—made legislatively, by Oregon lawmakers, and by the Fish and Wildlife Commission—more than doubled the state's cougar mortality rate in 17 years.* In 1994 Oregon lost 204 cougars; in 2011 Oregon lost 502 cougars.*

    The regulatory changes were accompanied by a well-planned and financed media campaign designed to convince the public that they were in danger from marauding cougars threatening their children and livestock.* Every legislative session since 1994 bills continue to be introduced to gut or overturn the ban on trophy hunting cougars with dogs.* And, remarkably, each session just before a scheduled bill hearing there is a cougar scare, usually in the form of a reported attack on a child.* These alleged incidents make front page and prime time television when reported, but days later when proven to be a hoax (or a bobcat or house cat instead of a cougar), the facts are not reported.* It is also important to note that the public is asked and directed to report all sightings of cougars to ODFW—and that all cougar complaints called in are recorded to justify the need to kill more cougars.*
    For insight on cougar sightings, read the opinion of Dr. Paul Beier, Ph.D., Northern Arizona University School of Forestry, who says*reports of cougar sightings are worthless (or worse).

    2006 - A Year of Shame:*Management Plan Becomes Government Kill Plan
    By 2005 the hunting regulation changes and associated media scare tactics made to counteract the presumed cougar population explosion had already succeeded in increasing mortality levels to over 400 dead cats.* That was still not enough to keep up with the inflated population estimates based on ODFW's flawed computer model, which by 2005 had cranked the population up to more than 5,000 cats.**
    2005 marked the time for the required five-year review of Oregon's Cougar Plan, and an opportunity for ODFW to address their inability to keep mortality rates up with the sky rocketing population estimates.* Thus the infamous 2006 Cougar Management Plan was born.*

    The pretext for the 2006 Plan was to increase public safety, although there has never been a documented cougar attack on a person in the state's history.* But the single focus of the Plan was to kill more cougars.* It contained no educational component and made no attempt to promote coexistence, to provide tools to improve livestock husbandry, or to better respond to legitimate damage or safety issues.* Instead, the Plan set up "target areas" within which government agents can indiscriminately kill every cougar they can locate, using traps, snares, and packs of hounds.* While the Plan involved a detailed description of the project, using scientific buzz words such as "adaptive management strategies," it is based on nothing more than solicited public complaint reports to determine where the killing areas are to be located, along with maximum kill levels extrapolated from a small study in Utah (made under very different conditions than are found in Oregon).*
    The Plan was sent out for peer review to a very limited group of scientists.* Predator Defense increased that field by sending it out to more scientists.* The response to the peer review was spectacular.** The best minds in cougar research condemned the methodology, from the population modeling to the use of unreliable complaint data as criteria for killing cougars.* In short, the majority of reviewers agreed with our conclusion that the document defies and/or twists the findings of cougar research in order to justify killing more cougars and to keep Oregon's cougar population static (at an arbitrary level of 3,000 cats determined by a politically appointed body in 1994).

    Read response to Oregon's 2006 Cougar Management Plan from ecologists Rick Hopkins & Barry Noon on behalf of Predator Defense
    A Cloak of Darkness Falls over the Killing Fields
    The state's reaction to the peer review response was predictable, if unconscionable:* it was ignored and no changes were made.* Then in 2011 the Commission agreed to the ODFW's request to abolish the rule to review all management plans every five years.* This leaves management plans for wildlife without oversight, regular review, or any need to keep up with and incorporate current research findings into the state's management strategies.*
    http://www.predatordefense.org/cougars.htm
     
  5. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Because heaven forbid if I make a wise crack to try to lighten the mood and situation... That MUST mean I'm "demeaning" something. Ha!
     
  6. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    So you were not serious that a cougar isn't a big deal? I apologize then.

    It came across as a "I live in the most intense wildlife area ever so one cougar is silly to get up in arms about" for me.
     
  7. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    To me, one cougar isn't a big deal. However, that's from my perspective. I can totally understand someone else not having my perspective/experiences and one cougar being a big deal for them.

    Sounds like these cougars are a big deal anyways, though. And probably would be here, too. They don't usually kill noticeably like that.
     
  8. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    http://www.pacificwild.org/site/related_news/1289857567.html
    BC is heavily hunted and they have had several attacks on people. If you look at the science of it...the disruption of their social systems, hunting causes these animals to be more likely to attack humans and livestock, not less.

    Humans have always lived in their territories, but historically, since there weren't as many people, the distribution was far less dense. With human population growing rapidly, people are moving further and further into their territories and with much more density. There are even fairly dense populations of humans right up into the foothills of the Cascades, for instance. People didn't always live there...oh, maybe a handful. But there are huge housing developments...much different than hundreds of years ago. If you don't get that difference....well...

    I don't know where you get your information. Maybe you want it to be true since you're a hunter. But hunting cougars is a lousy thing to do imo. For the most part, they are shy and leave people alone. I am quite certain that I had loads of exposure to cougars where I lived in north Idaho, that they were aware and watching me many times that I hiked. I saw signs of them, even on my own acreage. Other people experienced a few sightings of them. But I never encountered one. It's because of humans that there have been those rare conflicts.


    So, you think it makes no difference that more and more people are moving into their territory since you say people have always lived in their territory and there aren't clear boundaries like China?

     
  9. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    This is where bringing back hound hunting could be a great benefit. If a cougar is sitting in a tree you have the opportunity to check out whether it's male, female, maybe general age, before deciding whether to harvest it or not. F&G could even make it part of the regulations that only males are harvested if you hunt with hounds or something like that, or limit hound hunting to younger cougar territories.
     
  10. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    The thing is, hunters want trophies...the biggest, the best, the most strong so they can feel stronger and more powerful or whatever it is that hunters like to feel. They go after the big ones, the unnatural numbers of juveniles compared to mature males is what's left, and the juveniles, being more opportunistic and inexperienced are what make up the vast majority of cougars which conflict with humans, pets, and livestock. I don't disagree with hunting certain animals, but cougars should be left alone. They self regulate their population without the need for interference from hunters. Hunting cougars disrupts their social system and ecology terribly.
     
  11. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    With cougars, especially if you're hunting solely with predator calls and the like, you don't get the luxury of cherry picking a trophy cougar. Usually it's whatever cat is in the area and happens to respond to the call where you can see (my dad always says to put your back to a tree if you're using one).

    Most hunters I know that go for the large carnivores aren't trying to set some record for the most gigantic bear or cougar or whatever. Most of them are doing it for the challenge, making fun memories, if it's the right time of year they might get a nice pelt or something, but I've never talked to a hunter who was concerned about skull measurements or anything like that. Most trophy hunters I know are more into horned animals because with them at least, you can tell whether the animal is a trophy or not before you kill it and use up your tag for the season.
     
  12. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Well, if you read the science, the articles I posted, the research, and statistics, you will find that most of the conflicts with humans and livestock are from the younger cougars and that it is indicated that the balance is disrupted between mature and juvenile cougars...that hunting does increase the attacks on humans...that hunting with hounds does not lessen attacks on livestock. I remember hearing about this very thing back when I lived in Idaho. But these reputable sources of this information reiterate this.
     
  13. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    if you read the about us sections of those organizations, you'll see that they have a predetermined position. that in and of itself casts doubt on the legitimacy of their science. assuming they dind't cherry pick their data is like assuming BSL advocates don't cherry pick theirs. the very fact that two of your sources contradict on the number of nuisance lions killed in the same year for CA (one says 42 and the others says 102) shows that their use of data is biased at best. additionally their positions (like most prohunting positions as well) are operating on the false assumption that hunting is the sole arbiter of statistical changes in adverse lion/human interactions.
    unfortunately raw data available at the USDA wildlife services sight is of limited utility because it only goe back to 1996 and only details kills by the USDA. also unfortunately the state wildlife management agencies don't keep any longterm stats on their websites either. but their numbers are more significant because livestock predations are generally handled by USDA or privately, OTH the WMAs generally handle the repeated urban & suburban animals that are considered a direct threat to people.
    the current management parctices are not ideal, i know that. but history has shown the two most destructive management practices are unlimited, unregulate killing & complete hands off.
     
  14. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    There is still a young male loose here, confirmed by the dept. of wildlife. He was last seen in my neighbor's tree. We are told to be on high alert especially after dark.
     
  15. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    In our area a couple years ago, we had a cougar overpopulation and they did have to offer more tags for them. So I'm not sure if I can quite understand the idea that they "self regulate". They're a top predator. And top predators overpopulate when there is an abundance of prey.
     
  16. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Oh man, I hope they catch him soon. You must be so anxious for your dogs. Do they know for sure that there was only two of them? I'd probably run electric wire all over their kennels after something like this just to be safe.
     
  17. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    This is of particular concern. I hope they catch him soon and you and your pets stay safe.
     
  18. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    This is the typical argument here, when people can't get their foot out of their mouth. They often attempt to invalidate the sources that one presents as their answer, which is exactly what I see you doing here.

    I tend to believe the following list over your groundless dithering. No offense or anything but you're good at one thing: Bull sh!!!ng. You love to sound like you're such the authority on wild life because you hunt. But newsflash....I will buy what wild life biologists with advanced university degrees, researchers from well known universities, fish and game departments all over the country, people basically, who have been researching and taking down statistics for years over your empty prattle. And this is current information, not old, as you tossed into your attempt to invalidate the sources I mentioned.

    The reason I say this is because I do think education about these big carnivores is important and that humans in general understand that hunting them too heavily is what results in this very thing....young male cougars coming in closer to humans for atypical prey. I think it's important that people don't automatically think killing more of them is the answer when in reality, killing more of them is what causes more confrontations with humans, livestock, and pets.

    Do you really believe that all of the following sources have a biased agenda? Come now. Then we can say that about anything, any subject that scientists are learning and showing us today. These are not a bunch of yahoo protesters, whining about killing animals. These are reputable sources. What are your reputable sources of biologists, scientists, researchers, statisticians, universities that specialize in this sort of thing like WSU that dispute the fact that hunting more cougars increases human/livestock conflict?

    These are the scientists who, according to you, have an up in the clouds agenda. I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm sorry you are the type to reject education because you will remain ignorant. I'll highlight just a few:


    WSU Department of Natural Resource Sciences

    http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/cougars_overhunting_wsulab2012.pdf





    Cougar predation key to ecosystem health

    Oregon State University


    http://www.predatordefense.org/docs/cougars_article_Stauth_Ripple_Predation_Key_10-24-06.pdf



    http://www.mountainlion.org/us/wa/-wa-portal.asp
    Gary Koehler is Principle Investigator on Project CAT and has been employed by the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife as Wildlife Research Scientist since 1994. He received a Ph.D. from the University of Idaho and has spent the past 30 years conducting research on a variety of carnivores: including pine marten, wolverine, bobcat, lynx, cougars and American black bears in North America, to lions in Africa and tigers in China and India. He has published findings of these studies in scientific journals as well as in the popular press.





    http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004285453_cougar16m.html?syndication=rss

    Graduate Student
    Washington State University


    Director of Large Carnivore Conservation Laboratory
    Washington State University


    Wildlife Biologist With the Department
    Fish
    Education
    doctorate
    Washington State University


    Robert B. Wielgus
    Associate Professor and Director of the Large Carnivore Conservation Lab
    Research Interests
    Population, behavioral, and habitat ecology of large carnivores (grizzly bears, black bears, cougars) and their prey (mountain caribou, mule deer).
    Educational Background
    Ph.D. Forest Sciences, 1993
    University of British Columbia - Vancouver, BC Canada
    M.S. Wildlife Resources, 1986
    University of Idaho - Moscow, ID
    B.S. Environmental Sciences, 1981
    Brandon University





    http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.0060040

    References*Top
    Kellert SR*(1996) The value of life: Biological diversity and human society. Washington (DC): Island Press.
    Young SP, Goldman EA*(1946) The puma: Mysterious American cat. Washington (DC): The American Wildlife Institute.
    Culver M, Johnson WE, Pecon-Slattery J, O'Brien SJ*(2000) Genomic ancestry of the puma (puma concolor). J Hered 91: 186–197.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources*(2002) The IUCN red list of threatened species.*Puma concolor—Near threatened. Available:http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/detail?s.php/18868/summ. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    Washington State Department of Natural Resources*(2006) Forest land conversion in Washington state. Available:*http://www.dnr.wa.gov/htdocs/agency/wffs?tudy/fwffinalreportdocs/landuse.pdf. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    College of Forest Resources, University of Washington*(2007) The future of Washington's forests and forestry industries. Final report, July 31, 2007. Available:http://www.ruraltech.org/projects/fwaf/f?inal_report/index.asp. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    Kretz J*(2003 August 18) Cougar carnage at the Promised Land Ranch. The Idaho Observer. Available:*http://www.proliberty.com/observer/20030?818.htm. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    Robinson HS, Wielgus RB, Gwilliam JC*(2002) Cougar predation and population growth of sympatric mule deer and white-tailed deer. Can J Zool 80: 556–568.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    Katnik DD*(2002) Predation and habitat ecology of mountain lions*(Puma concolor)*in the southern Selkirk Mountains [dissertation]. Pullman (WA): Washington State University.
    Smuts GL*(1978) Effects of population reduction on the travels and reproduction of lions in Kruger National Park. Carnivore 1: 61–72.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    Jedrzejewska BW, Jedrzejewski AN, Bunevich L, Milkowski L, Okarma H*(1996) Population dynamics of wolves*Canis lupus*in Bialowieza Primeval Forest (Poland and Belarus) in relation to hunting by humans, 1847–1993. Mamm Rev 26: 103–126.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    Beier P*(1991) Cougar attacks on humans in the United States and Canada. Wildl Soc Bull 19: 403–412.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    Beier P*(1992) Cougar attacks on humans: an update and some further reflections.
    Lambert CS, Wielgus RB, Robinson HS, Katnik DD, Cruickshank HS, et al.*(2006) Cougar population dynamics and viability in the Pacific Northwest. J Wildl Manage 70: 246–254.
    Wielgus RB, Sarraxin F, Ferriere R, Clobert J*(2001) Estimating effects of adult male mortality on grizzly bear population growth and persistence using matrix models. Biol Conserv 98: 293–303.
    Washington Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit*(2002) Mountain lion predation on endangered woodland caribou, mule deer, and white-tailed deer. Available:http://depts.washington.edu/wacfwru/acti?ve/Cougar_Predation.shtml. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife*(2008) 2009–2015 Game management plan development. Available:*http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/management/2?009-2015/index.htm. Accessed 15 January 2008.
    Laundré JW, Hernández L, Altendorf KB*(2001) Wolves, elk, and bison: reestablishing the “landscape of fear†in Yellowstone National Park, U.S.A. Can J Zool 79: 1401–1409.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    *(1986) Habitat fragmentation in the temperate zone. In: Soulé ME, editor. Conservation biology: the science of scarcity and diversity. Sunderland (MA): Sinauer Associates. pp. 237–256.
    Goldman EA*(1925) The predatory mammal problem and the balance of nature. J Mammal 6: 28–33.*FIND THIS ARTICLE ONLINE
    Martorello DA, Beausoleil RA*(2003) Characteristics of cougar harvest with and without the use of dogs.

    Some of the articles are about other topics as well besides the cougar, but many of the authors, university departments, and researchers etc are the same.
     
  19. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    because they ARE invalid. they are political websites NOT actual studies. like ANY political organization they cherry picked what supported their predetermined message. because of my Pashto course, i don't have time to tear apart each site at this time, but i'll see what i can do this weekend.


    IME only trappers have more thorough knowledge of wildlife than hound hunters. that knowledge is based on the sheer number of hours spent actually in the woods in observation of wildlife. both groups have known since colonial times that bobcat killed deer. for MOST of the 20th century the acedemic/scientific community absolutely denied that bobcats actively preyed on deer. then as the population of both species began to recover and the volume of physical evidence accumulated they changed their tune to only northern bobs & deer in deep snow. as southern populations recovered and the same situation of accumulated evidence occured, they changed to only fawns & only occassionally. then the study in SC in the 90s that showed (at least for the studied population) that bobs preyed on deer year round & they made up as much as 70% of bobcat diets. so it only took the academic community 90 years to learn what the hunting & trapping community had known all along. sadly anti hunting groups & a lot of academics not directly involve in wildlife & forrestry sciences still parrot 50-90 year old untruths.


    again no actual studies just black and white statements that may or may not be true IF the actual studies include ALL variables. for example, unless the studies examined the effects of prey population declines on adolescent male dispersal, they failed to use scientific method by EXCLUDING other possible causes of the end result.
    for example of alternate causes of dispersal look at the north kings CA deer herd that was estimated at 17,000 in 1950 but only 2,000 in 1988. cougars eat an average of 1/2-1 deer a week depending on maturity or about 30-50 deer a year. so it's safe to say the north kings herd in 1950 could have comfortably supported a static lion population of 100 (but probably was closer to about 25-50 just because of the culture at the time). OTH in 1988 the herd could only support about 5-10 w/o extincting the herd (keep in mind coyote, bobs, bear, and people were still preying on this herd). now as this herd declined and the newly protected cougar population increased between 1950-1988, WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COUGARS. granted some were killed in territorial fights and kittens & adolescent males were preyed on by adult males (including their own father at times) and many were killed by humans (probably for shifting prey base to include livestock), a LOT would have displaced to new territories w/ adequate prey populations (including suburban deer populations putting them in closer proximity to people). the simple lack of food almost certainly has a greater effect than any social strata changes caused by killing one big male out of dozens of cats.

    yes i do and when i have time i'll prove it from the sites themselves.


    in this single page series of statements they blame human predation as the SOLE cause of the situations in question, w/o describing how they reached those conclusions, nor what alternate possible causes were reviewed and why such alternate causes were excluded in favor of human predation. again very possible failure of scientific method.





    HILARIOUS. national parks are by law barred from being hunted by anyone EXCEPT the park service may contract the USDA or other agency to remove overpopulations or problem animals. meaning this particular document is a perfect example of the end result of as close as possible to a total hands off management pratice. interestingly the end result is catstrophic population decline.



    and somehow all of this means they aren't human and won't misrepresent, misuse or exclude data to in order to support a predetermined conclusion that they feel strongly about.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/02/s...read-in-retracted-scientific-papers.html?_r=3
    i wonder how eminent Dr Fujii's professional status was? yeah' ill get back w/ you on your sites this week end.
     
  20. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I'm not going to argue with you anymore. That's just silly. You have your agenda, being a hunter, so naturally... I believe what I have read by universities, researchers, and what fish and game people told me when I lived in Idaho.

    RedChrome, Any updates? I hope you and your neighbors stay safe.
     

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