Ok, so do you train with or without treats? I'm confused... Need opinions..

[Purdue#1]

well here's the answer to your question even though i had already answered it:

i won't be using treats the whole life of my dog so there is no reason to start now. He knows the commands and what is asked of him. Don't you phase out treats completly once the dog knows the command or do you use for the entire life of the dog? I'm confused.

 

[Zoom]

Do you use a prong collar the entire life of the dog? Or don't you phase that out eventually as well? Why start using a prong now if you won't be using it the entire life of your dog?

 

[Cheetah]

If you continue to treat a dog constantly throughout its life, then you're not doing it right. Once the dog learns the behavior, they really don't need treats all the time.

Both my dogs will do anything I ask, without me having to "bribe" them with treats. And I DID train with treats. And if I am training something NEW, I DO use treats. After they know each command, I phase out the treats. I also use life rewards (if you want your meal, you have to sit, if you want outside, you have to wait, if you want to chase the ball, you have to down).

So there is nothing wrong with training with treats if it is done right.

 

[Dekka]

To say you need treats the whole life of the dog, shows that the person doing it, doesn't have a good grasp on training. Conversely if you train with a corrective type collar, if the dog has to wear it for its whole life, you are not training correctly.

 

[Purdue#1]

All collars and leads are eventually taken off the dog so they will no longer need a lead or collar EVER. Sly is right now where he has a tab on. he does long sit and down stays now. I will make a vid. it might be better to explain to you.

 

[silverpawz]

All collars and leads are eventually taken off the dog so they will no longer need a lead or collar EVER. Sly is right now where he has a tab on. he does long sit and down stays now. I will make a vid. it might be better to explain to you.

Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

 

[Cheetah]

Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

I agree. I also don't understand the logic.

 

[Whisper]

Ditto. I'm not quite sure I understand where you're coming from, either.

 

[Lizmo]

My dog can do long stays, downs, or sits. I can tell her to stay from a distance and go down. She heels perfectly. Sits everytime I stop while heeling. She knows millions of tricks.

All while using treats.

And *gasp* looks FORWARD to obedience training!

 

[houndlove]

Purdue I'm not sure how many times we have to say this before you stop being confused (because honestly I think thus far every post in this topic has explicitly said this, but you seem to like the big shouty sized letters so here):

TREATS ARE PHASED OUT!

We use them for the same sort of reason you use those correction collars: to teach a new behavior and then proof it to make it reliable. You phase your collars out, we phase our treats out. The difference is only that we use something to motivate our dogs to want to perform and you use something to make the dog afraid to not perform.

 

[heartdogs]

It's a myth that you shouldn't use treats for the life of your dog. But, you need to think of the rewards not as "treats" but as reinforcers. A reinforcer is ANYTHING that causes behavior to continue to happen. So, it's really about what your dog thinks is reinforcing, rather than what you think he should be reinforced by.
I use tons of roast beef, liver, chicken, turkey, etc. when I am training my dogs to do a new behavior. Do I carry liver in my pocket for the rest of my life? No. I don't have to, because I've done such a good job convincing my dogs that I "pay" for what I like. They never quite know, once they have achieved fluency in a behavior, when that reinforcement will come, but they know it's a sure bet it will - at some point. So, they continue to offer the behavior I like - and I "pay" this time with a pat, that time with a toy, maybe the eighth time with food, etc. Can my dogs make it through an agility course without food? Of course they can. Do they expect food every time I say "sit" or they won't sit? Certainly not.
If you embrace the principles of operant conditioning, you can train successfully with food, without pain, and without encumbrance from all the myths about your dog wanting to please you. He really wants to please you, sure, but he's more motivated most of the time to please himself. Dogs do what works - it's one of the things that helps you survive in the wild. So, if we make training work for the dog, instead of insisting that it only work for us, we get a dog that really does want to please us - because he gets something out of the deal, too. How long would you go to work without a paycheck? Sure, I know there are some altruistic volunteers, but if you never even got a thank you, or saw any result from your labor, then how long would you participate. Your cheerleader attitude would eventually become lackadaisical. Google "extinguish" & operant. It's one reason why ignoring the dog that is jumping on you works better than shoving a knee in his chest or screaming "off".
You don't need to carry food forever, just in the beginning. You don't need to carry a clicker forever (but most of us want to - you never know when you might "capture" a great behavior), and you don't need to resort to forcing your dog to do anything if you can figure out what motivates him. A great sit/stay might be built by doing it at the doorway - and reinforce it with the release command as you open the door. No food involved there. But, if you think you can train a dog just by your voice, I think you will be disappointed. You either reinforce or you ignore or you correct. Personally I like to reinforce (reward) good and ignore bad (extinguish).
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/primer.htm

 

[heartdogs]

Then what the heck is difference in using treats? You're not making any sense you realize that right?

The training collar is ok to use because it will eventually stop being used? But treats are not ok even though they will eventually stop being used. How is that logical?

It's really simple. Treats don't hurt your neck.

 

[Lilavati]

Although I do use a training collar (gently, very gently) its purpose is mostly to get her attention in situations when she's hopelessly distracted. I don't use it around home or on walks around the neighborhood. I don't need to.

I frankly can't imagine training a dog without treats. Why would I work without a paycheck? And when you are just starting out, especially with a rescue, why the heck would they work for praise? You don't mean anything to them yet. Treats do get phased out, but they are a form of reinforcement, and they are much nicer to use than jerks and yanks. Why use force when you can use something positive? I think there's something deeply Puritan in this 'no treats it spoils them' mentality . . . anything good must be bad. Force is better than willing co-operation. I don't often agree with PETA on anything, but when I see someone jerking their dog around, never rewarding them, only disciplining, it does look a lot like slavery to me. Sarama works for a living, but she gets paid for it. And hot dogs, jerky and string cheese come pretty cheap compared to her friendship and her eagerness to work with me and be trained. When I come out in the morning with a clicker and treats, she's iching to go. Why? Because its fun, because she'll get paid. When she'd rather not work, she does anyway, because she knows she'll get something yummy for her co-operation, even if she'd rather chew on a bone, lie in the sun, or chase a squarrel. She also knows that if she does do those things, she won't get a treat, in fact, she'll likely be told 'uh-uh' and ignored in the yard for an hour or two. Since she'd MUCH rather be with me, it works just fine.

I know why I go to work in the morning and it doesn't have a **** thing to do with being yelled at.

 

[DanL]

I frankly can't imagine training a dog without treats. Why would I work without a paycheck? And when you are just starting out, especially with a rescue, why the heck would they work for praise? You don't mean anything to them yet. Treats do get phased out, but they are a form of reinforcement, and they are much nicer to use than jerks and yanks. Why use force when you can use something positive?

1st- I'm not taking sides here....

I can fully imagine training without treats. You have to understand what motivates your dog and use that. My GSD Gunnar could care less for treats while training, and while he'll take them, it takes him literally 30 seconds to eat a pea sized tidbit, which breaks our momentum. For him it's all about a toy reward, and we can do several tasks and then reward at the end of those tasks with some tug or ball play. He will go nuts when I show him his tug, and his commands are done with speed and enthusiasm, much more when I show him a cookie. I use a prong collar on him. The only time he's corrected with it is when he refuses to do a command that we have proofed- meaning, he's been taught the command and he has been exposed to increasing distraction and still performs the task as requested. Prime example- on the protection field, he's in high drive, he wants the decoy bad. He's put in a down/stay. If he makes a motion toward the decoy, he gets corrected. Most of the time it's a verbal, because it's faster for me to react that way, and 99% of the time he'll drop back down again. His leash is hooked to his harness, with a small traffic tab hooked to the prong. The only way he'd get a prong correction would be if he ignored the verbal, and engaged the decoy, he'd be pronged off of the decoy. Once he was taken back and put in a down, and he listened, then he'd be rewarded with a bite.

Daisy is 100% food motivated, so we use treats for teaching her new tasks. She's also toy motivated, and I can slip obedience in when she's playing fetch- things like long downs while I toss her ball away as a distraction, and then release her to go get it, stuff like that.

I think everyone's ultimate goal is to phase out whatever motivators you need. I also think that doing certain tasks, like running the agility course or things like that, I will always give a toy reward for.

 

[Lilavati]

1st- I'm not taking sides here....

I can fully imagine training without treats. You have to understand what motivates your dog and use that. My GSD Gunnar could care less for treats while training, and while he'll take them, it takes him literally 30 seconds to eat a pea sized tidbit, which breaks our momentum. For him it's all about a toy reward, and we can do several tasks and then reward at the end of those tasks with some tug or ball play. He will go nuts when I show him his tug, and his commands are done with speed and enthusiasm, much more when I show him a cookie. I use a prong collar on him. The only time he's corrected with it is when he refuses to do a command that we have proofed- meaning, he's been taught the command and he has been exposed to increasing distraction and still performs the task as requested. Prime example- on the protection field, he's in high drive, he wants the decoy bad. He's put in a down/stay. If he makes a motion toward the decoy, he gets corrected. Most of the time it's a verbal, because it's faster for me to react that way, and 99% of the time he'll drop back down again. His leash is hooked to his harness, with a small traffic tab hooked to the prong. The only way he'd get a prong correction would be if he ignored the verbal, and engaged the decoy, he'd be pronged off of the decoy. Once he was taken back and put in a down, and he listened, then he'd be rewarded with a bite.

Daisy is 100% food motivated, so we use treats for teaching her new tasks. She's also toy motivated, and I can slip obedience in when she's playing fetch- things like long downs while I toss her ball away as a distraction, and then release her to go get it, stuff like that.

I think everyone's ultimate goal is to phase out whatever motivators you need. I also think that doing certain tasks, like running the agility course or things like that, I will always give a toy reward for.

Granted, there are other positive motovators. I just think treats are the like most common one. Toys are useless with Sarama . . . she doesn't feel rewarded unless I give it to her, and that really breaks our momentum . . . Just showing it to her or letting her sniff it just breaks her concentration . . . and getting it back after 10 seconds makes her dejected. She'll give it to me, but its nto the desired effect.

 

[elegy]

yup, luce works very well without treats. i find treats better for some things (like when i want her to be calm for stays) and high energy play/toys work extremely well for other things (stuff in motion- heeling, recalls, fast downs).

treats *are* the most common reward for dogs, and i think that we'd do a lot better in general with training our dogs if we started to think further outside the box. treats are easy, but easy is not always best. it's not always the most effective. and honestly? i think it's easy to get boring and predictable when you're always handing out food rewards.

it's a lot easier to keep a dog engaged when they're interested in the game, and the game is often much more interesting if it's unpredictable. consequently *you* as a trainer are more interesting if you shake things up.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I really think it all boils down to those who try hard to understand their dogs and use the things that bring a high level of motivation to their dogs (based on that particular dog), and those who prefer that a dog do it "just because they're told to" without any concern for the attitude of the dog.

I'm not against a correction, but I'm against basing all of training on the concept of correction with just praise as the motivating factor (which I feel happens when people depend on the use of a corrective collar throughout their training - an occasional use on a really tough dog is not necessarily bad).

It kind of boggles the mind that anyone, in this day and age, would be against positive reinforcement training - something that is so basic and has been proven to work so effectively. I could easily train my dogs with force and no reward except for praise (I did it for years). But the reality is that you get stronger, longer-lasting behaviors when the dogs have been highly reinforced for them. I know - I've seen the difference and will never go back to the neanderthal methods of correction/praise only. Refusal to acknowledge how various rewards work - including treats - is blatant proof of a lack of understanding of dog behavior.

On the "titles mean nothing" comment .. *LOL* .. I hear that from people who haven't managed to earn much in the way of titles. To take a dog out into a strange place, where there are hundreds of other dogs milling about and tons of strange people, expect them to work off-leash, expect them to avoid the temptations around them with people giving treats to their dogs, throwing toys, females in heat, etc., expect them to hold a stay in a line-up of strange dogs with dogs on either side just a few feet away - these are MUCH more demanding requirements than most dogs get at any time during their life with a person. Only someone who has never been there or never managed to earn titles would fail to realize the accomplishment. Making it sound like titles are useless is just a petty attempt to cover your own inadequacies.

And this is where I should mention the old adage of why "little" men get big trucks, hmmm? *LOL*

My bad!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[CanadianK9]

^^^^

Melanie, I love you ROFL

 

[angelzeus]

i always used treats it helps alot

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Awesome post Melanie.

Cider had to be taught toy drive. It was there, as I'm sure it would have never been rewarding to her if it wasn't.. but we needed to build it. Now, she works harder for a tug toy, or a ball than she does for food. But somedays.. She'd rather have the food if she sees it/smells it. But it's nice to have the versatility of both.