Ok, so do you train with or without treats? I'm confused... Need opinions..

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BostonBanker

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#21
While I often use rewards other than just treats (playtime, access to something else she wants, a toy, etc), I don't ever stop using treats entirely. I probably could with many of her behaviors...but why? She likes treats - they are a great reward for her. I like to give my dog things that make her happy, especially after she's done something to please me. I just can't seem to comprehend why treats get such a bad rap. Yes, wean your dog off of the notion that you get a treat every time. My dog can go out and do a 15 + obstacle agility course, and never once turn to me expecting a treat, but it doesn't mean she doesn't get them in training.

I love it when my boss praises me and compliments the work I do. I have a ton of respect for him. But let me tell you, if I didn't get a decent paycheck as well, I wouldn't be dragging my butt out of bed to go into work in the middle of winter!
 

elegy

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#22
i don't use treats ever. I want my dogs doing the commands because i said so not because they are going to get a treat or think they are going to get a treat. Bribery/luring are the same thing in my book.
of course they are. in your book. but not in the books of those who are knowledgeable about learning theory.

i expect my dogs to do what i ask because i said so, also, but i also reward them because it's the best way i know of for letting them know that yes, that is what i wanted, and that i appreciate their efforts.
 

Boemy

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#23
It depends on the dog. For my dog praise was the best reward. After she already knew a command, I would give her treats, not every time, but occasionally. But it was the "GOOD dog!!" that really got her tail wagging.
 

IliamnasQuest

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#24
It all boils down to each individual dog and what motivates that particular animal. A good, flexible, savvy trainer will use a large variety of motivators.

I remember the days when I was told that using food was bribing the dog, and that dogs should mind JUST because we told them to (and evidently they were to live to please me). I successfully trained some dogs that way, but the behaviors I got from them were not nearly as enthusiastic and in competition, the dogs burned out much earlier than the dogs I trained later using a large variety of rewards.

Food is no more a bribe to a dog than a paycheck is to those of us who work (as BostonBanker already mentioned). There aren't many people out there who are willing to work for a minimal reward. While dogs don't think "I have to earn this amount in order to pay for this item" - they do require a certain amount of reward in order to retain and repeat behaviors (or a certain amount of compulsion in order to avoid a behavior). Dogs do what works for them, plain and simple. Yes, they can be forced into behaviors by use of pain/fear/discomfort, but as the saying goes - you get what you pay for. If you're stingy and you only want to use minimal rewards, you'll get a dog that works with minimal desire. If you use rewards that are very exciting to the dog, you've increased the dog's desire to work for the reward.

It's very hard for people who have never properly trained using a high level of motivation to understand what a difference there is between the two concepts. They will defend vehemently that their dogs are motivated, enthusiastic, and happy. But when you've trained both ways, you see an obvious difference in the attitude of the dog and the longevity of the behaviors.

There are some dogs who really enjoy praise. But praise, alone, becomes dull compared to using a variety of rewards (treats, toys, running the dog out the door to pee on a bush, whatever). And if you want to train a breed like the chow, you better have an aresenal of motivators at hand! *L*

I often hear the old "well, if you train with treats then the dog won't ever work unless you have treats on you". That's just not true. If that's the way it turns out, then the trainer has made some serious mistakes. Properly done, using treats and other highly motivating rewards will result in a dog that eagerly responds whether you have a treat or not. And if you use treats to help increase the motivational level of praise and petting (by pairing them together) you can teach a dog to enjoy praise and petting more than it would normally.

"Silly trainer...Treats are for tricks!"
This is exactly the type of quote that proves a person's lack of understanding of dog behavior. Why would treats be for tricks and yet not for other training areas? A behavior is a behavior - the concept of what is a "trick" and what is an "obedience command" is purely in the mind of a human. To the dog, they're just responding to a set cue with a behavior that has been linked to the cue. I don't view teaching my dog to heel as any different than teaching my dog to roll over - they're both merely trained behaviors.

If a person is willing to use a treat for "tricks" and yet not for other behaviors, they're just being hypocritical. Maybe there's some macho "I don't wanna bribe my dog" crap going on, but that's all it is. And for those who teach their dogs tricks using treats, what does the dog tend to offer you freely when not given a command? Most dogs are going to offer the behaviors that are the most fun for them - which is whatever behavior is the most highly rewarded. People tend to give more treats for silly behaviors, and when a dog starts offering behaviors you'll see them sitting up, spinning circles, barking, raising the paw, etc. - the behaviors that get them the most treats.

Anyway, to the OP .. *L* .. use what works for YOUR dog. Some dogs are not particularly food motivated. My shepherds love toys and Trick was often rewarded in the winter by a thrown snowball. The chows would probably be most highly rewarded if I let them chase and kill something, but there ARE limits to what I'll use as a motivator! *L* So we use food rewards and good deep scratching in the thick fur (something my chows love, and my shepherds hate).

Melanie and the gang in Alaska
 

Zoom

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#25
Well, really when you think about it, what is obedience other than tricks that we've attatched a mountain of importance to? So yeah, in that case, treats are for tricks. ;)

I always ask people if they've trained their dog to do anything like shake or sit pretty and then ask which behavior their dog is more likely to do on the first command. "Sit" or "shake"...and usually shake wins out. Because it was fun for the dog to do and it's nothing but fun for the dog to continue to do it. So the dog offers that behavior willingly consistantly and joyfully, even without treats, and everyone is happy. Try training the rest of your behaviors that way and see what happens.
 
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Purdue#1

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#26
of course they are. in your book. but not in the books of those who are knowledgeable about learning theory.

i expect my dogs to do what i ask because i said so, also, but i also reward them because it's the best way i know of for letting them know that yes, that is what i wanted, and that i appreciate their efforts.
no. not that book. the other book I have. its called a Thesaurus and works really well.

I reward too with sincer praise and petting. Sorry but treats are bribery no matter what you call them, if you hide them so your dogs apparently "don't know" they are there, or if you phase them out and give them a treat just every once in a while.
 

Zoom

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#27
Well isn't praising bribery too? "Do what I ask and you'll get petted instead of being dealt a measure of pain?"

EVERYTHING is bribery at a basic level. Some of us just enjoy making our dogs happy to work instead of making them relieved that they avoided a painful correction.
 

houndlove

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#28
This BS is also why some breeds have gotten the reputation of being "untrainable". A dog who does not care about praise, no matter what kind of squeaky voice you use, and you refuse to use any other kind of motivator and who shuts down, sulks and refuses to move the second you apply any kind of force--what would you do with such a dog?

Hounds languish in shelters and are euthanized by the thousands because they have gotten the reputation for being "dumb" and "untrainable" because by and large they do not work for praise and they do not cooperate if you start trying to use force with them. They shut down, sulk, and become immovable objects. This "don't ever use anything but praise" crap has doomed thousands of dogs to death becuase some people just can't get over the fact that the majority of dogs don't want to be your slave working just for a kind word from you. And because people take that personally for some reason that I just can not fathom, the dogs get dumped in shelters.

I'm pretty excited though because I just ordered a real dead raccoon tail to use as an alternate motivator for Marlowe. I'm going to stuff it in a jackpot tug toy and see how he likes them apples! He's not toy motivated because most toys don't really activate his prey drive. But the smell of dead coon ought to do something for him!
 

dogoviz

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#29
I use treats for some things and not for others. If it is training I use treats always in the beginning, I always use some kind of treat for recalls. I do not use treats for behaviour issues. Example would be if I ask the dog to get off the couch, and I know the dog understands the command to get off the couch, I would not use a treat to get the dog off the couch. I would expect him to just move.
 

SarahFish

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#30
Personally, I think treats are good for training. But as you (hopefully) progress quickly with the training, cut back on them, or ask the dog to do a string of commands before a reward, or just substitute every second or third treat with a "Good Dog (or it's name).
At the moment I am doing heaps of training with my dog, and I'm trying to do this. I've noticed that the treat definitely motivates them to do stuff, especially if they really like it.
However, some people will think differently, I think it all depends on the dog-owner relationship.
 
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Purdue#1

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#32
This "don't ever use anything but praise" crap has doomed thousands of dogs to death becuase some people just can't get over the fact that the majority of dogs don't want to be your slave working just for a kind word from you. And because people take that personally for some reason that I just can not fathom, the dogs get dumped in shelters.
QUOTE]

for your info our methods Have Saved a lot of dogs from shelters and death.*GASP* The trainers They went to were all P+ trainers and told them to put the dog down. Dog clubs have told some of them to put the dog down because of its aggressiveness. Any dog can be trained wether it be pit, ott, hound, shepherd,etc. Some might be a little tougher than others, but they are all the same: dogs.

I don't use a squeaky voice to praise my dog either. that IS annoying.
If i told you what i would do with a dog refusing a command you wouldn't read it so there is no point in me typing it. waste of energy.
 

DanL

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#33
A few lashes from my stave is all the motivation my dogs need. They snap to attention when they see the stave. One time I caught one of them giving me the finger while my back was turned, but they didn't know I could see their reflection in the glass door. That dog got many a lash that night, and I made him sleep outside in the rain chained up to a tire. That dog was my best dog ever after that night.
 

Zoom

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#34
Dan, oh is that what I'm doing wrong? I just make mine sleep in the tub after a whipping...maybe I should make them sleep outside balanced on the railing?

I know I'm wasting precious time and energy here on Purdue, but for the others that are reading this thread...it's up to you whether or not you want to use treats. They work for some dogs, they don't work for others. It's also up to you to find a good trainer who can help you with your issues and doesn't have to resort to beating a dog to get it to do what is asked.
 

silverpawz

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#35
If you are enforcing known commands so the dog knows it's not optional, but ALSO rewarding good responses with food....how can you be against that? What harm can the treats possibly do?

They are just a reward.

Purdue, if you spent a week training exactly the way you are now, doing exactly what Richling tells you, but you also reward those extra good responses with a little tidbit every now and then (not even every time) I bet your dog will be even more excited about training with you then he already is. And wouldn't that be a good thing?

You've got nothing to loose. You're still enforcing those commands, there is no chance your dog won't obey, right? So why not make him even happier to do so?
 

Saintgirl

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#36
A few lashes from my stave is all the motivation my dogs need. They snap to attention when they see the stave. One time I caught one of them giving me the finger while my back was turned, but they didn't know I could see their reflection in the glass door. That dog got many a lash that night, and I made him sleep outside in the rain chained up to a tire. That dog was my best dog ever after that night.
LMAO!!

Purdue, if you spent a week training exactly the way you are now, doing exactly what Richling tells you, but you also reward those extra good responses with a little tidbit every now and then (not even every time) I bet your dog will be even more excited about training with you then he already is. And wouldn't that be a good thing?

You've got nothing to loose. You're still enforcing those commands, there is no chance your dog won't obey, right? So why not make him even happier to do so?
Great point! What do you have to lose Purdue? Maybe a little faith in your own training methods?
 

IliamnasQuest

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#37
I'm pretty excited though because I just ordered a real dead raccoon tail to use as an alternate motivator for Marlowe. I'm going to stuff it in a jackpot tug toy and see how he likes them apples! He's not toy motivated because most toys don't really activate his prey drive. But the smell of dead coon ought to do something for him!
Ahhh, neat idea for a motivator!

I was watching Khana today as she played with a chunk of thick bark (the kind used in decorative outdoor areas) - she pounced on it, threw it around, made huge leaps over it, grabbed it and shook her head, dropped it and rubbed her face on it - she was just like a cat with a mouse. Chows tend to be really "into" little rodents and I was thinking "I wonder where I could get the skin from a mouse carcass" .. *LOL* .. it would be the same kind of thing as the raccoon tail for your dog. Khana would go ballistic for something like that!

Melanie and the gang
 

AgilityPup

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#38
Might be a little late, but for me, even with a dog I am TRYING to get toy motivateed, not treat motivated, there are some things I use treats for (contacts, recalls, downs, stays etc.) and some I use toys for (weaves, ect) but then there are some things, if we're working over and over on, I use my voice until I say it's time for a treat, at the end. That way my dog isn't always expecting a treat :)

Good luck!
 

Dekka

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#39
LOL it is so true about finding the motivator for your dogs. After owning JRTs for so long, I am sooo used to dogs who really don't give a rats ass for praise. Its not valuable to them. (except the one that was abused/neglected..praise was a marker that meant no punishment was coming. She was my only dog that ever worked for praise) The whippet puppies how ever will work for praise and a pat. It funny really, and it astounds me every time they do it. I still play tug and give little treats when training. But they will repeat behavior for a pat on the head :yikes:

Very good point about the diff between a trick, and an obed behaviour is all in the mind of the human.

And yes positively trained dogs can be as reliable as force trained dogs. It just takes a bit more effort on the part of the trainer. Really I think it is laziness as much as ignorance of learning behaviour that keeps people from trying to positively train their dogs.
 

houndlove

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#40
I'm getting that coon tail from Clean Run. They actually have a whole host of real fur tug and jackpot toys. One of them is a jackpot tug toy but it's made out of rabbit skin on top of the nylon. They have a lot of natural sheepskin/wool ones as well, and one that's a bumper tug toy that has raccoon hair in the stuffing for it. I had a hard time deciding!

So, here's my question. If dogs trained with motivators other than praise are so inferior to dogs trained only with force and praise, how come so many of the top dogs in competitive obedience, rally-o, agility, and freestyle are positive-trained? You can't use any kind of rewards other than praise in those events (and in obedience not even praise). So how come those dogs perform? Are their owners actually secretly out back beating them with staves in between matches? Or could it be that, correctly done, positive rewards-based training works to create a dog who is accurate, enthusiastic, obedient and happy to work even when treats or other motivators are not present? Here's several pages of multiple clicker-trained perfomance champion dogs: http://www.clickertraining.com/honorroll_test Some of these dogs have so many titles after their names they don't even fit on one line. So, if that style of training doesn't work, explain this, please.
 
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