Obama/Biden versus Romney/Ryan?

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Barbara!, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    My friends dad is crazy but all other normans I have meet are great people.

    I really like how family oriented they are and how they are raised to help people
     
  2. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    i believed (and still do) that abortion as BC is murder LONG before i ever developed religious convictions. which is part of the point, the proabortion pundits are ASSUMING ONLY people of abrahamic faiths oppose abortion as BC. Actually BC is DOCTRINALLY a private matter between husband & wife(them & god) and i have NEVER been asked about it at any interview. I have been asked about pornography but never BC.


    after reading this i had to wonder if you weren't FLDS (Warren Jeffs freaky crew). SO much of your experience is contrary to everything I have been taught & experienced.
    i have a brother inlaw got divorced several years ago, because his wife got a divorce for cause (his adultery) she didn't need to get his permission to get it annulled so she could remarry in the temple.
    first off a home teacher isn't supposed to do marital counselling, he is SUPPOSED to report abuse to the Quorom president & the Bishopric AND if it involves violence against children it is SUPPOSED to be reported to Child Protective Services by THE HOME TEACHER. This is training I received in preisthood meeting at general conference years ago at the direction of the first presidency which makes it OFFICIAL church policy & doctrine. anything less is a failure in the individual to uphold church policy & doctrine.

    i've never been taught that he didn't practice polygyny himself. i will admit it isn't generally discussed but i've never heard it denied. I am not informed of the particulars of the brides so can neither confirm nor deny.

     
  3. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I just wanted to point out that not everyone who is anti-abortion is religious. My dad is not religious at all (agnostic), but believes abortion for BC is wrong and murder. He is very liberal in every other way.
     
  4. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Morgan as a write in!!

    Srsly. :p

    She promises a National Mandatory Nap Time and federal incentives for hot dog vendors.
     
  5. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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  6. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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    I have no idea where I said that LDS/Mormon men beat their wives. In fact, I did not at all say that men were hurting their wives. I was saying that there are people who believe that men should govern their wives bodies (GOVERN ie Control what she can and can't do with her own body) based on a (Yes Maikoda, misconstrued) passage from the bible.

    I personally do not believe in anything the bible has said. However, there are many people who do pick and choose what they want to use as rules for others based on little snippets here and there of scripture.

    I have also been part of the LDS commnity as a child before I was given the choice whether or not to attend church. When I asked the Bishop of my church about the disparity between opportunities for men and women to be powerful leading figures (meaning, ordained) int he church, he told me women did not need the ability to be ordained because their "greater gift of power is the ability to give birth and bring life into this world" I'm sorry but that's a male chauvinist point of view if I ever saw one "You don't need to be a leader in the church, just be happy you can make us babies". I am not saying all LDS churches are run this way but some are. That was one of the huge turn offs from that church for me. I would not have minded staying around for the community aspect of the church rather than the spiritual but I couldn't swallow how much women were expected to do only what they were allowed to do instead of what they wanted to do.
     
  7. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Funny how the same concept can get re-interpreted and changed.

    For some, that's the reason women DO have more say and higher standing, for others, it's a rationale to keep women barefoot and pregnant -- and expected to be thrilled about it.
     
  8. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    and again no where in there did either of them promote banning contraceptive, denying homosexuals basic civil right & liberties nor taking away the civil right or liberties of women.AND ABSOLUTELY NO WHERE in your links did either of them make the statements in Izzy's post that I bolded when i quoted it. so yes hyperbolic rhetoric very much in line w/ beck & limbaugh.
    I happen to oppose the very idea of hate crimes because you're punishing thought not deed and so would vote against ALL hate crime bills. that does NOT in any way mean i condone violence against homosexuals or other races. additionally many people vote against bills they would otherwise support due to riders attached by politicians of opposing views on unrelated issues. it is YOU who are ASSUMING that he voted against it because he hates gays and want to treat them as less than human.
    this is really gonna burn your butt. prior to this thread I was ignorant of Ryan & OPPOSED to Romney (but definitely not in favor of Obama). thanks to some of the actual information shared here, i don't support Romney but i'm no longer opposed to him either.
     
  9. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    The legal system should use MOTIVE in the equation, not thought. Emotion is factored in by differentiation (i.e. first, second degree murder, manslaughter). There's a difference, subtle, but there. When working within the confines of the law, words matter, as do the subtle differences in meanings. "Hate" is an emotion and within the boundaries of legal reasoning, should denote a mitigating factor rather than a compounding one. The concept and labeling of "hate crime" legislation is yet another symptom of political pandering to public emotions -- like BSL.

    Someone who kills another person because of their beliefs is arguably guilty of first degree murder and sentencing under those guidelines. An assault should fall under aggravated assault. The laws are in place. Catchy, vote-whoring names only muddy the waters. And make for misleading political campaigns.
     
  10. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    i will say again my brother in laws ex did not have to get his permission. he was an admitted adulterer on church discipline. his bishop TOLD him what was going on and did NOT ask his permission for her to get the sealing cancelled.

    the inference is that the marriages were for selfgratification, but really how many women in their fifties were hot in the 19th century? kind of calls into question the motives.
    keep in mind also that at the onset of polygyny MOST of the additional wives of the church leaders (including the teens) were widows of the MO & IL persecutions and had to be married to protect their personal property rights.
     
  11. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    In the LDS church, every single divorce must be spiritually "annulled" so that the people involved can remarry in the temple regardless of whether the man or woman initiated it. This is done by the first presidency themselves at request of the person who want it done. The same thing for getting a temple recommend after a divorce.

    The reason for that is not to control anybody. It's because divorce is often precluded by some major transgression on the part of one or both persons that prevents them from being templeworthy (like spouse abuse, adultery, etc.) so the first presidency looks over the case to make sure they aren't giving out temple reccommends to people who haven't kept their covenants.

    Also, they go over things to make sure the person getting married isn't getting sealed to someone they had an adulterous relationship with during the previous marriage, since that's absolutely inappropriate.

    This all applies equally to both genders.

    Nicole, I believe you. And I believe that you experienced horrific abuse by evil people who saw the church as an opportunity to get close to and groom their victims. Unfortunately, it's something that happens in every organization where adults are put in a position to mentor children or other vulnerable people. Those predators are drawn to it. They don't represent the beliefs or ideals of the organization by any means. I'm so sorry that you had to go through it.

    Didn't you tell me that bishop (or was it your awful teacher?) got excommunicated? I can't remember now.

    Also, BC is totally allowed. It's just abortion that is considered murder. My SIL is an active member of the LDS church. She was raped and took a morning after pill. The bishop had absolutely no problem with it. Even abortion isn't totally black and white, and victims of rape and incest are encouraged to counsel with their bishops who are in the position to get them into free professional counseling.

    It doesn't function perfectly, because that would require the people that make the church up to be perfect people. And we're not. We're just regular laymen, regular people who are trying to be good people.
     
  12. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    this isthe real point people are CHOOSING the create threats in their head based on out of context snippets of scripture or the NONDOCTRINAL actions of idnividuals. when i began developing my religous convictions i attended several different baptist churches (1 free will, 1 first & 4 southern) at some point in ALL of them i heard preachings of hate & intolerance. in no way do i believe all baptists are violent bigots. I know that what i was exposed to was the personal views of those pastors backed by out of context snippets of scripture.
     
  13. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    you didn't another poster tried to create the perception that the church as a whole is built on the glorification/perpetuation of violent mysigonists.
     
  14. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    It's the same thing with dog breeds. People will have a bad experience with (insert breed here), and suddenly EVERY dog of that breed is a monster.

    I've met many good and bad Christians. I've been to churches where everyone is accepting and welcoming, and I've also experienced some terrible things said by so called "Christians."

    There's a bad apple in every bunch. You'd assume every elementary school teacher would love kids, right? And every doctor wants to help people? And Christians should strive to be Christ-like? Just because someone has experienced the bad side of these people doesn't mean that a blanket can be thrown over them all.
     
  15. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I miss all the good threads.
     
  16. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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  17. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    You OBVIOUSLY didn't read the links... The "on the issues" one.
     
  18. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I didn't really look at other dude's link because I know I don't like him, lol, but this is what jumped out at me from the Romney one you posted:

    Now, obviously his views adjust over time because people have life experiences and their views change. However he's never tried to ban it, and I don't see anywhere in your link where he's done so. I also don't see anywhere in your link where he's said he's going to, just that he personally feels it's wrong but he's not going to stop it.

    ETA: and this is an issue a lot of LDS people have a major beef with him on, as many are very firmly pro life.
     
  19. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    you obviously didn't read them. Romney has been either supportive of abortion rights or hands off (that is government hands off).

    Ryan has been anti abortion.

    NEITHER has advocated taking away womens civil rights (voting, free speech, gun ownership etc).

    as somone who may very well be living ONLY because abortion was illegal at the time, I fully understand that abortion for ANY reason except to save the life of the mother is in fact murder. and saving the life of the mother is a tragic decision for a doctor & patient to have to make like seperating siamese twins.

    so not only are you expressing support for hyperbolic rhetoric, but in typical uberliberal fashion you're ASSUMING that i'm ignorant & if i had all the information i'd agree w/ you. well i have all the information you posted and NONE of it told me they plan to establish a theocracy, take away the civil rights of women & and take away the civil rights of homosexuals ALL of which has been proposed in the posts I disagreed with that generated your response to me. honestly i have bigger concern over some of Ryan's foreign policy actions than their stance on abortion or gay marriage.
     
  20. sparks19

    sparks19 I'd rather be at Disney

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    Good post. There is a difference between
    Personal belief and what you plan to make law in office.

    I also don't see being anti abortion (for birth control) as taking away womens rights
     

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