Obama/Biden versus Romney/Ryan?

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Barbara!, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    please show where either politician has actually SAID anything you put in bold. although it is pretty much accepted the old testament is harsh toward homsexuality. the new testament is not so much.
    FTR while the LDS church opposes gay marriage I have never heard them oppose civil unions. the LDS church doctrine does oppose abortion as birth control but leaves all other BC to the conscience of the individual members. and where in the doctrine of the LDS church is the man "lord & master" of his wife. as a matter of fact LDS doctrine has in plain terms stated the man is to lead by example and may not use force or coersion against his wife. LDS doctrine has also stated that a wife has as EQUAL sexual right with their husband.


    because a theocracy, by definition, is run by religious leaders not laymen w/ religious convictions. Iran is technically a theocracy (Shiite muslim to be exact) because the religous leaders choose the ostensibly secular government leades AND they dictate to the "secular" government the policies & laws the government will enact & enforce. please show where either has said they would put the USA under the governance of either the president of the LDS church or the Pope. we do not & unless there is some serious civil war action, will not in our lifetime see a theocracy in the USA.
    it can't be just christianity because the denominations can't agree 100% on what is & is not correct in christianity. heck the baptists in MO & IL murdered thousands of LDS (mormons) in the 1800s and yet both are christian.
    but let's for the sake of argument use biblically correct doctrine for running the USA. what is wrong with love thy neighbor as thyself & forgive all men. your animosity is based entirely on the actions of men & NOT on the actual doctrine of the scriptures. further you're assuming that ONLY christianity or even abrahamic religions are the sole source of the moral choices behind their views. I personally opposed abortion as birth control long before i ever developed any specific religious views.

    no, you're trumpeting rhetoric & hyperbole w/o any foundation in reality. seriously it's like listening to limbaugh.
     
  2. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    I'm pretty sure neither one of you are citing references, so insulting someone for something you're also failing to do is like calling the kettle black. Remember: keep this civil if you would like this thread to last.



    http://www.ontheissues.org/House/Paul_Ryan.htm/

    http://www.ontheissues.org/mitt_romney.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=lruG938Puag

    Since most speeches can't be found on YouTube...you can simply research their vote history. They have both voted against gay rights, against abortion, against contraceptive, against allowing gays to adopt, and Paul Ryan even voted against a bill that stopped hate crimes against gays.
     
  3. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Actually, a lot of LDS folks were really cheesed off at Romney for not stepping in and coming down more harshly against abortion when he was gov of Massachusets. And if you look in the link you yourself provided, you'll see that while he personally is against abortion he has repeatedly supported the legal right to do so.

    Being LDS myself, I can vouch for the fact that men and women are equal partners in our church. There's no lording over little wifeys. It's not part of the culture. Sometimes guys with abusive personalities end up in the church and they do emotionally/physically abuse their wives, but it's definitely not part of the culture, it's not the norm, and when they're exposed the community tends to react in a very unfavorable way toward the perpetrator.

    If anybody is interested, this article explains very clearly what the LDS church views as abusive and unacceptable in a domestic relationship.
    http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/10/a-conversation-on-spouse-abuse?lang=eng

    and especially this, which I'm quoting because for some reason it's often misunderstood by people who aren't involved in the church.
    The scripture quoted in the above quote was super long, so if you want to read the whole passage you'll have to get the link out of the article.

    ETA: and I'm really bummed about missing a really cool workshop approved by the LDS church that was given last weekend. It was about creating safe spaces for homosexuals within the LDS church and communities. It looked incredibly fascinating, and was of special interest to me because my oldest (and most favorite) brother is homosexual.
     
  4. blue

    blue Jerk.

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    Darn tootin there lady. There would be some good stuff indeed.
     
  5. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    At least two of your three bolded points are untrue. The Bible actually has very little to say on the issue of contrseptives. Catholics are the main religious group among Christians that prohibit the use of contraceptives. The rest of us, for the most part, are fine with it. If I remember correctly, the use of contraceptives to prevent pregnancy was actually brought up by up pastor in our pre-wedding counseling (Lutheran).

    Also, in the majority of Christianity the husband and wife are equal sexual partners. The New Testament does outline a husband and wife's responsibilities to each other, but does not declare the husband the master of his wife's body.
     
  6. NicoleLJ

    NicoleLJ PSD Partner

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    Sorry but being an ex-mormon myself I have to fully disagree with most of what you have said. In the mormon faith abortion is a kin to murder. And the use of birth control in any form is extremely frown upon and when you go in for your Temple recommend interview and if you report you use it then you can and in many cases will be denied a Temple Recommend on just that reason alone. They believe that God decides how large your family will be and that you have to let God decide that and to stop it is a sin.

    As for men and women being equal that is a total laugh. I have been in this church since I was 3, all across Canada and parts of the US including Salt Lake. There is a defiante higherarchy between the sex's. Prime example just look at Temple marriage. If a wife divorces her husband she has to get permission from her ex AND the higher athorities to have that Temple marriage annuled to get remarried in the Temple. Otherwise she will "eternally" be married to the one she divorced and in the churches eyes only married till death do you part to her new spouse. That gives a man HUGE power and authority even after the marriage has legally been declared over. As for domestic abuse in the Mormon faith it is actually a HUGE problem. Not a small one. And if a woman was to report it to the Bishop, her home teachers or so on she is told it is her fault. How do I know this? Not only did I go through it but I know many others that have as well. She is then counceled to be a better wife, more attentive and so on. If she is a better wife, prays more and such then her husband would not be treating her that way. This is not just words from multiple Bishops but also from multiple Hoe Teachers AND the counslors that they send you too as well. That is how it is handled. And then it is rug swept. And no the abuser is not condemed or ignored. Many times it is the wife that is shunned since obviously she is not being a good enough wife.

    It really gets me when someone shows the "Public churchs" side of things and not the realistic truth that is being dictated and done. Just because in public they say one thing does not mean it is truth. In public the church teaches it's members and states that it's founding Prophet Jospeh Smith only had one wife. When in fact he had multiple wives, many married to other men and some were 14yrs old. So publc truth and actual working truth are two totally different things in this religion.

    As for the churchs standing on Gays, it is simple. Look up the documentary called Prop 8: The Mormon Proposition. You just have to see what they tried to pull in California to stop Gay marriage. And how they treat gays in their religion. They did affect, seriously, the rights of many people.

    Anyway I will disappear back into never never land. Just had to correct the misinformation about a faith that I was so emeshed in for so long till my eyes and brain were thrown wide open. Back to the political debate.
     
  7. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Ugh...that makes me sick to my stomach.
     
  8. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    Honestly, I'd take everything she says with a (large) grain of salt.
     
  9. NicoleLJ

    NicoleLJ PSD Partner

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    Excuse me but I am not a proffesional victim as you call it. Please keep your name calling to yourself. All you have to do is google Prop 8: The Mormon Proposition and that proves that part of what I state easily. Then do a goggle of how many wives the prophet had. Here I will do it for you:

    http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

    Two of which were 14yrs old. Many of which were married to other men at the time he wanted them.

    Temple marriage divorce:
    http://lds.about.com/od/temples/a/mormon_divorce.htm

    The paper work and such through the Bishop they are speaking of is the permission the wives have to get from the ex's to get the Temple Divorce. A woman can only be Temple married to one man. But a man can be to multiple women even if they are legally divorced. Agian how do I know? My mother has been married 5 times. Twice in the Temple. She had to get her ex's permission to have their sealing canceled before she could be married to her next spouse. That is my personal example I know many who had to do the same thing.

    Just because you do not like me does not make what I post false and does not make me a perfessional victim. So please stop calling me that.

    Editted to add: Thanks for taking out the Proffesional Victim part in your reply. I appreciate that.
     
  10. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    I very much think you are a professional victim- I won't deny that. It doesn't matter if I like you or not. Everything you do and say keeps you down as a victim. Instead of always posting about how 'mistreated' you were, it may be more beneficial to rise above it all and do something about your life. You don't HAVE to be a victim. No one owes you anything.

    Especially by reading how Romy talks about being LDS, I have a hard time believing that the entire religion is the way you paint it.
     
  11. Miakoda

    Miakoda New Member

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    Men thinking women are property isn't some religious notion. I know plenty of men, most of whom are atheists/agnostic, and they treat women like objects to be owned and controlled.

    And what the Bible says exactly about sex within a marriage:

    So sure, I could get on my high horse and start screaming how the Bible tells women to fullfil her marital duty to her husband and yield the authority of her body over to her husband, and I guarantee you I will have the feminists in an uproar. But you must read the ENTIRE passage! It says that each should do the same for the other! Thus it can be said that it's an equal stand.

    You can't just pick and choose the words from a passage, reformat them into a new sentence, and start proclaiming it as "truth". You must acknowledge ALL the words, and do so in the order those words are written. Then feel free to make your decision regarding the passage, but for goodness sake, give credit where credit is due.
     
  12. NicoleLJ

    NicoleLJ PSD Partner

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    Considering all I have been through and over come I very much see myself as a survivor and not a victim. Just because you don't like how I talk does not make what you think I think of myself true. You see me as a proffesional victim. I see myself as a survivor and am very proud in many respects on how much I have over come and where my life is now. And no not everything I do or say keeps me down. That is how you, someone who has never met me, takes what I say. Which is your own personal definition. It is not how my friends see me. Many see me as an inspiration on many regaurds and though I personally would not go that far in how I view myself, I do try my best to help those who have been through similar things or who are going through hard times as well. So in my view I have risen above most of it. Am I perfect? Nope. Do I try every day to help others and have a better day? Yes. Do I always succeed? Nope. Do my disabilities hinder me in a lot of areas? On many occasions they do. But I do try each day and that is all anyone can ask of themselves. I use my experiences to help others who may be in similar circumstances, and have helped many that way. And will continue to do so. It is not meant to keep me down as you put it. I see myself as being able to rise even higher above it because I no longer rug sweep what I have survived and instead use it as an example for others.

    And no a polititian is a proffesional liar so why would they paint the true picture of their faith that dictates a lot of their values?

    Anyway that is all I am posting on this. So you keep your opinion of me and I will continue to live my life as the survivor I see myself as. Have a good day all.
     
  13. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    Exactly.

    It's easier to latch onto religion as a cause of abuse. If a Catholic husband beats his wife, it's because the bible "says" men have control over their wives. If an LDS father abuses his kids, ALL mormons are bad and it's a terrible religion.
     
  14. yoko

    yoko New Member

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    I have a friend who was mormon. They were insanely against control of any kind.

    They did say the man was the leader but I'd like to see any of those guys stand up and say it to their wives XD
     
  15. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    I've always thought that part of the problem LDS members face is getting tagged in with the hardcore crazies.

    Other sects are lucky. Imagine if Baptists were all viewed through the Westboro Baptist lens? Or all Catholics were equated with Torquemada? Or Muslims with Al Qaeda . . . oh, wait . . .
     
  16. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    One of my old coworkers/friends is mormon. He was about the most lax, easygoing, awesome person ever. Highly doubt he was going home to beat his wife and children every night :cool:

    And if he did, well he was REALLY good at hiding it considering he rented the other half of a duplex from my sister, who only ever reported hearing giggling/excited screams from their 6 kids, lol.
     
  17. MandyPug

    MandyPug Sport Model Pug

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    The mormons I've met have been nothing but friendly, and I live in a densely mormon populated area. There isn't a hint of man owning their women domination stuff. It's very equal and the women in the community are valued and respected. The mormons that I know have been far less condemning to homosexuals than any catholic authority figures I have encountered (and remember, I went to catholic school).

    People are free to believe or not believe whatever they want, but it's when they force it on others especially in the form of laws that it angers me. Keep religion out of the government, it has no business being there.
     
  18. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    This.

    I don't live in an area with many mormons, but every mormon I've met has been nothing but friendly, relaxed, and family oriented. One of Ian's good friends from travel hockey as a kid was mormon, and Ian said his family was AWESOME. His parents were the type of people who would do anything for their kids, and they were just very loving.
     
  19. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    The only unpleasant experience I've ever had with a member of the LDS was when I was 18 and ran the service desk at WalMart. There was a pair of missionaries who would come in every night at 5 minutes until close, wait until I was the only register open and come through with something for around $5 and pay for it all in loose change -- mostly pennies.

    And laugh about it.

    They had a wallet full of bills.

    After the fourth night in a row I refused to run the transaction with the change.

    That had nothing to do with their religion -- they were just obnoxious (barely) post adolescent twits! I've met quite a few other missionaries and they've all been incredibly courteous, well-spoken and non-pushy, totally unlike the door knockers from the other sects!
     
  20. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    I have had experiences with Mormons where there is an issue with women, but I will not say that it represents the faith as a whole. Then again, the version of Catholicism I grew up with and lived with is very different from the "typical" ideas about it. The Catholics I grew up with were all very liberal, tolerant, accepting, etc. We also fought for women prients;)
     

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