Obama/Biden versus Romney/Ryan?

Discussion in 'The Fire Hydrant' started by Barbara!, Aug 11, 2012.

  1. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    I, and I am sure others in this thread, am not ignorant to what the Bible says or the myriad of interprations that stem from it. I was raised Christian, went to Christian schools and had religion classes daily. My FIL is evangelical. It's not that I came to the Bible with an agenda, or a bias. It's that I can read it WITHOUT one.

    Second, yeah no. Not ok with churches taking over marriage. It is NOT a religious contract, but it can be. No one decided who your church gets to marry.

    Third, yep, social issues are JUST as important as economic ones. Not like Romney actually is going to help that anyways but there are other Countries around that may have money but suck in the human rights department. I am not wiling to sacrifice social issues.
     
  2. Puckstop31

    Puckstop31 Super-Genius

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    Interesting. My experience was pretty much the complete opposite. Read it as a young person and thought it hogwash. Lived some life. Realized that the only reasonable explanation for life was in it.

    I disagree. I believe that marriage is a matter of faith. The Bible is pretty specific about it.

    See the rub? Where is the line? I reject the idea that the only good government would be by people who are blind to a faith.


    As for economics... Romney can do no worse than the last two people occupying the White House. Plus, he has a record of fixing financially broken organizations. All the last two guys did was max the credit cards. And for what?

    I am not saying social issues are not important, only that they won't matter much if we are all fighting each other for a loaf of bread and a gallon of gas. There is historical precedent for how we are handling the financial matters of our country and that precedent bodes ill for us.
     
  3. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    Marriage has been a contractual agreement across the world for thousands of years that grants certain social and legal rights, responsibilities and protections for thousands of years. Whether religion was involved or not and not matter what religion it was. Funny that in this country people are find interpreting things the way they want to be happy, but can't afford others that same right, or are a bit too willing to take it away from someone else.
     
  4. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    The bible can say whatever it wants about marriage, it didn't invent it
     
  5. Puckstop31

    Puckstop31 Super-Genius

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    Well... No. Not the Bible. I believe God gave marriage to mankind, along with everything else in the natural order of the world.

    I understand you don't believe that. But can't you see the smidgen of hypocrisy? Somehow you voting your conscience based on your faith is OK, while me doing the same is not? Why? Just because your faith 'tolerates' more than mine?

    God is loving... But he is ALSO just. Its those rules that our flesh does not like, so we rebel... Usually at our own peril.
     
  6. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    No, I don't see hypocrisy in realizing my faith is not for everyone. Seeing that while MY faith says one thing, letting others have their faith and their rights is the moral and just thing to do. ( and yes, of course I am not going to say anything can be excused by anothers faith but gay marriage does absolutely nothing to anyone but the two entering I to the contract. )

    I don't like that most Christian churches condemn gay marriage for instance, but I will defend their right to not recognize or perform them eVen though I think it's not moral.
     
  7. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    Very well said.

    Being a moral person is not dependent on being a religious person -- nor does being a religious person bestow morality on one's actions. Morality is based on individual choices, whether they are personal or adopted from someone/something else.
     
  8. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Marriage came before the Christian religion.

    I believe the Christian religion is just another passing phase... Thousands of years ago, the Egyptians had their God, and now he is fable. Then the Mayans had theirs...and now he is fable, too. The Romans... It is now fable. And in a few thousand years, the Christian God will also be fable.
     
  9. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    I don't see Christianity, Islam or Judaism going anywhere. They'll continue to morph, being highly political religions that have a continuing history of being used more effectively to gain and maintain political power than the others (I don't consider the Romans as having any religion, since they merely took over existing religions in their path and renamed -- or not -- the deities to sound more Roman, and they were the first to recognize and seize Christianity as the perfect vehicle to consolidate political power).

    The Abrahamic religions are here, as well, in an age of technology that provides easy dissemination and use.

    On the other hand, other, older religions are resurfacing visibly because they, too, now can be communicated easily, and followers can communicate with each other, something that hasn't been possible since the Romans brought the hammer down on the world and closed the mind of the world.

    My vote for "religion most likely to survive the eons" is Buddhism -- largely because it is really a philosophy based mainly on being a decent human being and part of that is not insisting on "there can be only one [religion]."
     
  10. sparks19

    sparks19 I'd rather be at Disney

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    Well after an interesting morning where I woke up 15 minutes before I had to leave for work and in that time get myself AND Hannah ready to go (which I did with time to spare BTW lol cause I'm awesome like that) I have not had the time nor desire to argue about the never ending cycle that is the political and religious debate because in the end it's not going to change one single thing and we'll all be back where we started from lol.

    and quite frankly.. my brain is tired.

    I can't vote so I'm not "voting and forcing others to follow my beliefs".

    As for

    I don't think getting a license and driving a car is a right. it's a privilege. there are LOTS of people who can't get a license. We don't just hand out cars to every person of legal age because it's not a right. Drive drunk and lose your privilege of having a license and vehicle.

    If you show up at school and shoot up the place you are making a CHOICE and CHOOSING to forfeit your right to bear arms... but you still have RIGHTS.

    Same with preying on little children. You CHOSE to forfeit your right to freedom... but you still have RIGHTS.
     
  11. Puckstop31

    Puckstop31 Super-Genius

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    I dunno Cali... We are commanded to hold each other to account, so forgive me for caring enough to share. And trust me, I have plenty to atone for and be held account to. People seem to love to point out my faults. LOL But I appreciate it. Really.

    Romans 1 is pretty clear. Not sure how one wiggles around that.
     
  12. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Have you seen the YouTube video by Matthew Vines?
     
  13. Puckstop31

    Puckstop31 Super-Genius

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    Yes I have. To me the fatal flaw in his arguement is that homosexual activity is not a sin, when the Bible, as he admits, is quite clear. I do not argue the ideas that gay people truly love each other and want what straight couples want. But the fact remains that the Bible is clear.

    One can wiggle around it with heart tugging speeches.... Mankind has a knack for making excuses for sinful behavior. But either the Bible is 100% true, or none of it is. I believe the former. Ill never force anyone to agree, but I will also always vote my conscience.
     
  14. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    It's not clear. That wasn't his only argument. He carefully read and interpreted the scripture as it was originally written. Loving homosexual relationships are not condemned in New Testament. He explains why.
     
  15. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Well gosh I hope you don’t shave, don’t have any tattoos, don’t touch your wife or allow her around your food while she’s menstruating, don’t wear any clothes of mixed threads.... You know... The other stuff the bible is very clear on.
     
  16. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    So, ok, some people believe that due to Jesus's sacrifice, only those commandments in the new testament count. (I believe Spark mentioned this as some point. So i'll leave most of these, alone
    [​IMG]

    Now, I have done quite some research on this issue.. all those years in catholic school did kind of teach me to know my way around a bible lol and Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality SPECIFICALLY, I'll explain more of that later.
    In the FEW times it is mentioned, it would seem that it is said to be bad because it is tagged along with adultery, prostitution and adultery. Not really bad in itself.

    At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been.

    1 Corinthians 6:9–10 says that certain types of people “will not inherit the kingdom of God.†The list of such people begins with fornicators, idolaters, and adulterers, and it ends with thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Near the middle—between adulterers and thieves—are the two Greek words translated in the New Revised Standard Version as “male prostitutes†(that is, homosexual male prostitutes) and “sodomites.†But no special emphasis is placed on these people; they are simply listed along with the others.

    Ok, so... why the focus on homosexuals? I mean, Corinthians does put them in the same bucket as fornicators, adulterers etc..

    and speaking of adulterers, in both old and new testament it would seem the bible is pretty clear about one BIG issue.

    Divorce. The Bible is very clear on this one: No divorcing. You can't do it. Because when you marry someone, according to Mark 10:8, you "are no longer two, but one flesh." And, Mark 10:9 reads, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

    Mark gets even more hardcore about it a few verses later, in Mark 10:11-12, "And He said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.'"

    ok, so, now committing adultery, wouldn't that NOW put the newly divorced woman in the SAME bucket as the homosexuals?

    ..why do people cherry pick that homosexuals don't deserve to marry and are a sin.
    ..but that divorced women can remarry and aren't adulterous?

    HOW COME ANYONE WHO HAS SEX WITH SOMEONE THEY AREN'T MARRIED TO GETTING THE SAME KIND OF TREATMENT?
    ..that isn't the bible IMO or it's teachings. That's personal. It's cherry picking. It's a lot more difficult to say all adultery is wrong because hey, sex is fun.. and not waiting til marriage is normal these days.
    then it is to point at gay people and condemn.

    The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

    To the extent that it does talk about homosexuality, the New Testament appears to be talking about only certain types of homosexuality, and it speaks on the basis of assumptions about homosexuality that are now regarded as highly dubious. Perhaps, then, we could paraphrase what the New Testament says about homosexuality as follows: If homosexuality is exploitive, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is rooted in idolatry, then it is wrong; if homosexuality represents a denial of one’s own true nature, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, then it is wrong. But we could say exactly the same thing about heterosexuality, couldn’t we?

    In my eyes, none of these things really say that god things homosexuality in itself is a bad thing.
    now, the bible in itself is really about how you read it

    So.. you say the bible is either all true or none of it is.. so this begs the questions, when will we stop allowing those who are divorced to marry? non-virgins? How many of those who SCORN homosexuality because of the bible are on their 2nd marriage? had sex before marriage? etc.. They are all covered under adultery.. why do divorced people get a free pass?

    ..and those preaching this kind of "WRONG IS WRONG THE BIBLE SAYS I AM JUST DOING WHAT GOD WANTS!" philosophy and want to be held accountable.. did you have sex before marriage? were you married before?.. if so, why aren't you as passionate about your own sins? Why did you get married again? I mean, it is adultery after all. What ever happened to not pointing fingers unless your hands are clean

    or better yet, what ever happened to loving thy neighbor.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  17. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Fran, would it be homosexual or adulterous of me to say that I love you? :p
     
  18. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    Both and I'd love it either way LOL nothing I love more than some adultery and homosexuality. Except perhaps separation of church and state, but seeing that it no longer exists basically.. because according to Mr.Romney
    “We’re a nation that believes that we’re all children of the same God†:rolleyes:
     
  19. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. Puckstop31

    Puckstop31 Super-Genius

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    I'll pick this, but is an answer to all the other "what about.... what if...." stuff.

    ALL sin is equally bad. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Because He loves us, God comitted the single most loving act in the history of the universe. He took our place. He gave us an out. IF WE ACCEPT IT and repent of our sin.

    Tanya is my 2nd wife. :O I fully admit that I made a mistake and married a person who I should not have. I commited a sin, but because of God's grace i'm forgiven. That is not spiking the ball or in any way mean I think "well, I cna do whatever I want, God has my back". I still strive to live my life as best I can, but I will always fall down from time to time.

    The difference is I don't make excuses for my sin, I confess the sin and ask my Savior to forgive me. Just like He promised He would.

    Is it a shame that many churches seem to elevate homosexual sin above others? Yes. That does not give it a pass. Sin is sin.
     

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