No Milk. Puppies still Nursing fine?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Chaos Theory, Jul 9, 2008.

  1. Chaos Theory

    Chaos Theory New Member

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    Hello! Wow I haven't been here in a month of sundays. Never forgot the place though. Best forums ever and I was helped out a year ago with a new female dog that I was worried I'd have to get rid of.

    but you guys saved us!:hail:

    well since that time she has had her first litter :)

    I have 4 beautiful shih tzu puppies that were born on June 28th. 3 girls 1 boy. They have doubled in size and have been doing really well. Me and my wife checked for milk from the dam daily and she was producing milk until yesterday morning she seems to have stopped producing. We made a visit to our vet and he lead us in the right direction I believe. We are trying to start them on formula which they are not fully getting the hang of yet. It's difficult for us too. the hole for the bottle is tough to get just right and I'm so affraid their not able to get a good suction from it and that I'm nervous about squeezing the bottle to draw milk, since it seems I have to use some pressure to get it going. not wanting to drown them. We also are starting to feed the mom higher quality canned/trayed dog food and making sure shes getting her water and EVmilk/yoguart mixture so I'm hoping this will help. my question is:


    The puppies are still trying to nurse from the dam and I'm wondering if their able to get anything because they seem fine in doing so even though we are doing the squeeze test on the nipples and seeing no signs of milk. The puppies don't cry or pull away from nipples. they look like their nursing normally. They nurse for the same amount of time and then fall back and sleep. I check for milk from the nipples and still nothing. Is it possible for their still to be milk even though I've done the squeeze test?

    another question is if we have to go full time with bottle feeding. what's a good kind of bottle to use? the ones I was able to pick up from walmart in a frantic search are so small! :yikes: from the direction on the powder formula it will take 2 bottles for each 11 oz puppy. also any tips on making the holes just right? I'm using a thumb tack and have just percied the top several times to make it drop out better.

    sorry for the long post and thank you for your time and any help.
     
  2. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Oh, dear.

    Well... to start off... maybe it wasn't a fantastic idea to breed your 1 year old bitch? Just maybe. =( Maybe you should've seeked some breeding advice, as well, before all of this.

    I have never whelped a litter, so I really have no advice as far as bottle-feeding. If she is producing milk, wouldn't you be able to see it in/around the puppy's mouths, were they getting any? I would continue with the bottle-feeding as per your Vet's recommendations, and ask him about problems with the holes in them.
     
  3. Chaos Theory

    Chaos Theory New Member

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    I didn't give a complete background because I figured if I would have come this far to make a post on this forum, most would probably guess I have already studied, read all I can before asking questions. this one about nursing just boggles me and I know the answer may be found here (if not by vet).

    incase theres more assumptions I'll get this out of the way.

    dam was born jaunary 2007. linear math = more than 1 year old.

    other obvious common sense things I may be missing (just incase...)

    shes got a whelping box
    shes in a good enviroment
    the puppies are hers
    the litter was planned
    the male daddy dog doesn't care one way or the other
    shes not rabid
    theres plenty of heat
    puppies are weighed daily
    shes taken outside to potty
    she cleans her puppies
    no crusting of nipples or discoloration
    I'm using the internet for advice as well as a vet.

    hmm....... the milk replacement is for puppies not kittens.


    sure I missed one. point it out if I did :p



    thank you
     
  4. You cannot analyze whether your bitch is producing enough milk except by regular weighing of the puppies. IF the puppies have stopped gaining, or are crying because they are not sated after nursing, you need help.

    ANYONE who breeds a bitch should have a plan in place, and be prepared to feed puppies BEFORE THEY ARE BORN.

    Stick with your vet's advice. They will probably be able to eat gruel on their own by 3 weeks or so.
     
  5. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    She's not rabid.. there's a brilliant reason to breed..

    Bother to health test bitch and dog? Bother to title either? Wait until both dogs are two.. sounds like not on all accounts. Gee she's more than one. That deserves a round of applause. You apparently didn't use the internet to research enough.
     
  6. DogstarAcademy

    DogstarAcademy New Member

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    Breeding at 18 months isn't unusual in a lot of toy breeds- they *do* mature somewhat earlier- and you can test patellas at a year, although I'm not seeing any mention that the OP BOTHERED.
     
  7. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Do the pups seem to have full bellies after nursing or is more of a "sucking their thumb" reflex? That's usually a pretty good way to see if they're getting milk or not.
     
  8. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    As young as these pups are I wonder why the vet didn't suggest tube feeding? It appears much easier than trying to get them to take a rubber nipple, and much less time consuming? Just wonder?
     
  9. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    That's true... but, technically, she was BRED 2+ months ago, so she was barely over one year old at that point.

    Regardless of breed, I will never agree with breeding dogs who have barely stopped growing themselves. Particularly when it's the dam... =( Most dogs aren't even near reaching social maturity until 2-3 years old. Puppies having puppies is just bound to result in whelping and care issues, IMHO.

    OP: Everything you listed is, well, basic care. That's great, but those are not reasons to breed. Dogs should be health tested, temperament tested, and shown/worked to prove that they are an excellent example of their breed and deserve to pass on their lines. It's too late for that now, of course, but it isn't too late to think about any future litters you might produce. I hope the puppies are taking to the bottles... are they? Have you asked the Vet?
     
  10. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    ^^^ of course I agree ! I waited until after 2 and all tests were done . But , this is a done deal ! The welfare of the pups is the importance . To me , if the pups are still nursing maybe the milk will come back in . Unless their weight drops and they cry for food , give Mom a chance !! I had a litter of 13 and never supplimented . Supply and demand .
     
  11. noludoru

    noludoru Bored Now.

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    Ah, but unless she was born January seventh or before, she isn't even a year and a half yet, and already has a litter on the ground.

    I second what Grammy said... let the pups keep nursing off of mom, more milk should come. I would also get a second opinion from another vet... or advice from other breeders experienced with your breed. The more experience and input you have, the better.

    I think maybe if we try to educate this poster more politely about good breeding practices, rather than flaming, it'll be better received. Me keeping my mouth shut on the topic might help, too.
     
  12. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    Give the bitch some fenugreek...its an herb used in cooking..most good grocers carry it. Administer a small amount in food and her milk will pick up...usually within a day or two. The stuff works like gangbusters.
     
  13. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Ok, first things first, the pups are already here, no point in slamming the OP about age, genetic testing etc.

    Weigh the pups TWICE a day, with a good scale. General rule of thumb with same breeds is the pups should gain 1-2 oz each day, they should double their birth weight by one week of age and so on.
    Personally I don't like the nursing bottles, easier to get a syringe and nursing tip from the vet, you must hold the pups upright but not tipped backwards, if they are hungry they will lap the MR from the tip. Care has to be taken not to have too much fluid coming at once, each pup is different but most will lap at a few drops. Record how much each pup is eating, give excess MR to the dam.
     
  14. Chaos Theory

    Chaos Theory New Member

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    Thanks for all those who offered ADVICE or HELP. Your time is appreciated.

    Sorry I haven't been able to reply back sooner. I wanted to make sure a few of the suggestions were working and to give the mom a chance at nursing as suggested. They must be nursing ok because their bellies are rounded out, they are gaining weight. born in at 5oz and now most are between 17.5 to 18.5 oz....1oz to 2oz each day and they are almost walking around even. hardly cry, yet seem active. all eyes are open too. both parents are registered AKC. not sure about these tests? but then again I don't plan nor claim to be a breeder or want to show my dogs. so don't worry.

    I know about planning for things, reading, research but there is some things that unless you or someone has PERSONAL EXPERIENCE with then all the reading in the world or preparing for isn't going to help. that's why I asked a question.

    I am monitoring the pups along with my wife about their feeding and plan to get a tube feeding setup ready just incase. also I have gotten good suggestions for bottles which I will use if any issues come up.


    I'm going to post pictures soon in the correct forum. hopefully it will give the few in this thread something to bash at if they don't have anything else better to do ;)
     
  15. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    I'm sorry, what is a breeder?

    Because I THOUGHT it was someone who breeds two dogs together and then raises the puppies until it's time for them to leave the mom.

    What if someone on this forum bought one of your puppies, and then asked us a question to which the answer was "Talk to your breeder," would s/he reply, "My puppy doesn't have a breeder"?
     
  16. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    AKC registered means absolutely nothing. Dogs that come from the pet store at the mall are AKC registered and they are all poorly bred puppy mill dogs. The absolute number one most important thing to do before you breed is to test your dogs first for the diseases and hereditary conditions known in their breed. Hands down most important thing to do. You might be creating dogs with major health issues that will come up when they are older that could have been totally prevented. The female is your dog but where did this male come from? Obviously not from a good breeding program or else they would not have allowed him to mate with your underaged untested bitch.

    You bred the dogs didn't you? Intentionally? Then I believe you are a breeder! What you are doing would in fact be THE definition of a breeder.
     
  17. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    My first concern were the pups and I'm glad that they are doing well . Since it's a done deal , may the OP ( as THE breeder ) now write up a good contract for the future buyers stating that the pup will either be S/N or not breed until full testing is done a 2 years old . I do hope that you have " THE " book to socialize these little one !
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2008
  18. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Don't forget in the contract to put a lifetime return and health guarantee. Since they are not health tested you need to be very upfront and take responsibility with a good health guarantee.. like for 8 years or life.
     
  19. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    Just curious, I am kind of afraid to ask... what breed is the father of the puppies?
     
  20. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Lord , don't add that to the mix !!!! I presumed that they are purebred !
     

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