New puppy pics...cute alert. :)

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by MsBehave, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    I think people need to look up real herding trials. Not the wanna-be-stuff AKC puts on. I don't know about Corgis, but for Border Collies AKC stuff is laughable. It's definitely NOT parading little sheep around a ring. Check out: YouTube - shooflyfarm's Channel

    If you think it's easy, then go train a dog for TOP LEVEL sheepdog trials. Then come back and say it's parading dog savy sheep around a ring. :rolleyes:
     
  2. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    Yes, impressive. "Harder" than AKC stuff. Its all a matter of perspective. Those sheepdog trials are pretty much BC specific. They are built around showing what BC's were made for. We already had the discussion that not all herding breeds were meant to do the same thing. I would bot expect a cattle dog to do that. A 600 yd outrun? Why? Cattle dogs are driving dogs, not fetching dogs.

    What is important for BC's isn't always important for other herding breeds.

    I think Romy's post was spot-on. This is NOT black and white. There is a very diverse group of people who are great breeders. Not all of them show, not all of them work, not all of them test, but just one thing or another doesn't kick them of the good breeder list.
     
  3. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That stuff is cool, I was talking about the AKC trials. And yeah, outline is right that stuff is BC specific for testing BC working ability.
     
  4. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That's why I put in the question about hunting with hounds being illegal. There is no way on earth I can legally test my dogs on wolves. Ever. In this state you can't even run them on cougar any more. It's not black or white. I can test them on coyote, which is the closest thing on earth out there but they are still not wolves. There is a huge difference between tackling a 35 lb. game animal and a 74 lb. game animal.

    But is possible to breed DA out and still preserve those drives? Is it still a pit if they have the other drives, that spark, but not the DA? If your dog can do weight pull, does that make them a pit? If they can't, what does that make them?
     
  5. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I agree. If you breed away from the ability to work you will breed away from the very traits that make that breed what it is.

    Take JRTs. I know of some very pretty and friendly JRTs who show no interest in chasing the lure, no interest in getting the rat etc. To me they are no more JRTs than if they looked like Borzoi. Yes looks are A defining characteristic of a breed, but they are not THE defining characteristic of a breed.

    I love Kat. I will likely take her out hunting at some point and time, but don't really plan on working her. But all the traits that would make her a good hunter (ie fearlessness, confidence, incredible body awareness, athleticism, insane determination and crazy prey drive) are what make her a great dog for me.

    Mikey, our foster JRT is cute. He's small. He has no drive, but likes to carry a toy around. He would be a much easier pet than Kat for the average person. But he is not going to be a great pet for someone who likes JRTs. So by watering down the breed by saying 'who needs a JRT who can hunt foxes anymore' is doing the breed a discervice. If people want a cute small laid back dog.. there are breeds out there already that fill that niche. Why destroy what a breed is just cause you like the 'package' and want to install a different operating system?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010
  6. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    The point of my post was saying that not all herding trials are "parading dog savvy sheep around a ring" There ARE harder trials out there that test a dog's ability way better than AKC.

    Outline, I have no experience with other herding breeds. How does AHBA compare to AKC for ACDs?
     
  7. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    I know what you meant. :) *Those* trials are better suited to a BC. They prove more about the BC than an AKC herding title. If AKC is all someone has access to would you fault them? If they had 3 AKC herding trials a year within a 300 mile drive and no USBCHA herding trials within a 500 mile radius, would you fault them for opting to do AKC? While it might not have a long outrun and might not truly test the dogs abilities to the limit, isn't actually putting time into going to a trial and proving your dog can work strange sheep in a strange environment better than nothing?

    I have yet to compete in anything. Still very much into getting my two guys started, confident, and working nicely before considering trialing.

    In AKC there are 3 different courses that you title on. For each course you can title at the Started, Intermediate, or Advanced levels. So an HSAs title means Herding Started Course A on sheep. HSAc is herding started course A, cattle.

    I think each course is meant to prove certain things needed in a herding dog. They are all timed. You can look up specifics at: Rulebook

    Course A is called an all-pupose farm course. Basically a short outrun/drive, penning, and moving animals through a chute.

    Course B is called open field. A longer outrun with a shorter drive. It says the drive is to be 1/3 the length of the outrun. The outrun distance is determined by the level you are at, and its of course limited by the facility you trial at. It says in the Advanced level of course B the minimum outrun is 350 ft and maximum is 1200 feet. The handler must stay at his post and driect the dog on the outrun and from there direct the dog on the drive without leaving his post. The dog must also pen and hold the livestock.

    Course C I think is built more for GSD's its supposedly a "tending" course. The dog moves the flock to various unfenced grazing areas. They can use a minimum of 20 sheep, more are encouraged. The dog removes the sheep from a holding pen, and takes them across various obstacles from direction of the handler. They move them across a bridge, and hold them at the road with traffic. Apparently they will have someone drive by slowly in a vehicle and the dog has to hold the flock out of the road.
     
  8. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Well for starters, I guess you didn't catch the meaning of ":p" in my post. :p

    Ideally, I'd love to see more pemmies actually working on a cattle farm. There are some, but they're hard to find and most don't advertise. From what I've heard, pemmies also are one of the few breeds that excel at working pigs ~ because pigs won't respect most breeds.

    And while I would love to see more real working pemmies, I'm willing to settle for herding sport pemmies. Which is still not what the OP is producing...in her own words...

    Herding cattle with a dog is still very much legal, which means it can be tested for and preserved. If the working abilities can be kept intact while breeding out DA, then by all means, breed out DA. But I have yet to see how it works. It's not that DA is a part of the working qualities. It's that in order for them to have what it takes to work cattle, there is a propensity for DA to be there.

    Not on cattle, but on goats...I know nothing about either of these and do not vouch for them in any way.
    corgis
    The Funny Farm | Get back to nature

    Not a pemmie, but hey...if the cardi can do it... ;)
    YouTube - Nypa 2 juli
     
  9. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    You said a cattle dog (I assume you mean an ACD, too?) is better meant for driving. I assume that would be Course C?

    Yes, by all means test your dog in what ever you like. :) I just don't agree with breeding a dog (a BC) biased on those trials. I'd rather see (in a dog that's being bred) that dog work in tough situations around the farm on a regular basis.
     
  10. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    ACD's can do well in any of the AKC courses. I honestly don't know of any dogs titled on the C course. Simply because of the props/land/roads etc they have to have to put on a trial with a C course.

    ACD's originally took cattle to feed lots/slaughterhouses across the outback. Major areas in Australia are very far apart. People would own a ranch with 2500 cattle and drive them to a feed lot that was 200+ miles away. The dog would need the stamina to drive the cattle all day, and continue this until they got to the destination. I'm really trying to paint the picture for you of why ACD's are built they way they are and why they herd differently than BC's. None of this applies to corgi's I know nothing about corgis. At the feedlot the ACD would be needed in close quarters to move the cows into chute's, hold them in position if needed, etc. So essentially an all-purpose herder, but the main focus was driving.

    What I'm trying to get as, is while an ACD can do any of the AKC courses, it doesn't truly test their original purpose. If there were such a test, there would be about 8 guys on horseback and about 6 dogs herding cattle from Dallas, TX to Houston. :) That would be a sight!
     
  11. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    We should get busy organizing such a thing! :p

    And the corgi test would have to incorporate mousing in between moving cattle. ;)
     
  12. Lizmo

    Lizmo Water Junkie

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    Oh okay. You just made the point of saying that cattle dogs were bred for driving, so the outrun doesn't mean alot.

    Too bad you don't have an organization like that! Guess you know what you need to start now. :p
     
  13. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That's what I remember seeing in AZ. When we would drive the dirt desert roads between Tucson, Pierce, and Tombstone area there are a lot of free range cattle out there being driven around by vaqueros and usually about three ACDs.
     
  14. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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  15. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Thanks for the links! That was an interesting read.
     
  16. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    Exactly Romy (I'm from Willcox, so if you know where Pierce is, you know where I'm from lol) and it is very common to use ACD's and such to drive cattle there...and yes we still use horses. Then again, none of ours were "registered purebred" anything, they were ACD's that were given to us by neighbor ranchers - oh and their parents titles? None, but they could work and showed true purpose.
     
  17. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Oh my gosh!!! That's awesome! We used to always go to Apple Annies to pick peaches and apples! :rofl1: And the diamond in my wedding ring is from the wedding ring of the wife of the founder of Pierce, AZ. Looong story. lol.

    There was this one team of three ACDs along the stretch between Pierce and Dragoon, they were so gorgeous. I loved watching them run, they were just so balanced and smooth. We always got to see them run because they would flip out and chase our car away from the cattle as we drove by. Strider was born a little south of there in Elfrida.
     
  18. Pomkees

    Pomkees New Member

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