need some advice for a friend about whelping chihuahua's

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by tjedt, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. tjedt

    tjedt New Member

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    thats what im trying to get her to do i told her to make sure she saves for it and go see the vet for a xray or ultrasound how ever they do it with dogs to see how many pups if any, and if they are going to be too big for her to deliver safely which i know they will be.

    that way she can hear it from her vet maybe that way she will wake up a bit do you know how long before she needs to wait before she can take the dog in for that??
     
  2. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    This is such a shame !!!!
     
  3. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    at 1 wek after tie those pups arnt even viable yet...and with both a young inexperienced male and a young inexperienced female im Praying to all the gods that will listen that this breeding did NOT take.
    your friend is more than stubborn she is STUPID.
    i cannot imagine anyone who truly cared about their dog purposly putting their animals life at risk simply because they dont like the idea of abortion and some site says 8 months is fine...
    sounds to me like she WANTS the puppies...

    what she doesnt seem to realize is if the pregnancy doesnt kill her girl, the delivery will...

    palipitation is difficult in chis as there so tiny, she needs to call the vet and have the receptionist check with the vet there, some are comfortable doing it earlier than others...
    she needs to go in for a palipitation as soon as the vet says possible...the vet will feel around to see if theres any lumps (pups) after that its a couple more weeks before xrays and ultrasounds can be done...

    ill continue to pray to whoever will listen that her vet can talk some sense into this girl...
    shes PURPOSLY and KNOWINGLY killing this little dog if she lets this pregnancy go to term...how can anyone say they love their pet and allow this to happen. breeding in chis is risky as is...but that tiny.

    i know its tough, please keep on at your friend, print out the thread if you have to, im sure we can all provide lots of great links to print out info from too, and hopefully her vet will try and talk her out of letting this happen too...

    unfortunatly, beond trying to educate and encoraging her to FREQUENTLY go to the vet...theres not much you can do.
    during the whelp if the dog has idfficulty its unlikely youd be able to get a dog that small to an e-clinic fast enough and theres simply no physical way you can manulally help like you could a bigger breed...
    even if she did deliver ok, the risk of death in chi pups is high...in pups from a breeding that small, id be suprised if any made it through the delivery let alone days after...

    her ONLY chance of this working...and by chance i mean its so minute i would NEVER risk my dogs life over it...is a pre-booked c-section. it is cheaper to pre-book (she will pay almost double if she has to go through the emergency surgery) and the vet will be able to get the pups out quickly with the least stress on the mother and pups systems, AND will be able to get them set up in a sterile environment with heating pads and fluids for mom...
    even in that situation though, theres a VERY high chance of still loosing all the pups AND the mother.

    theres NO reason this should have happend...shes had the male for how long and hes still intact?

    thank you for trying though!
     
  4. puppydog

    puppydog Tru evil has no pantyline

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    This whole situation is why I get so angry when inexperienced people take on a toy breed! There is just so much more to have to watch out for!!!
    This person is going to kill her dog, she will have blood on her hands!!!!!!
     
  5. tjedt

    tjedt New Member

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    well this is my first chihuahua so i am inexperienced but i am on here everyday learning everything i can to make sure i give the best possible life to my pup.

    to say that is really not fair......yes what she did was irresponsible and i am trying to make her see that before it's too late by educating her and supporting with whatever choice she makes!!

    to say she will have blood on her hands is a little harsh and hard for me too read i am asking for help so i can support her not any negativity like that.

    im sorry if i sound mean or anything but to read that upset me a lot as im sure this situation is hard to swallow for a lot of you but my hands are tied and i would like support and advice on how to support her that's all.
     
  6. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    If someone knowingly kills their dog.. how do they NOT have blood on their hands? I can see if they honestly don't know. But if you tell her all these things, and she does a bit of research and still kills her dog.

    Sorry if it sounds negative or harsh. But sometimes reality is harsh.
     
  7. PoodleMommy

    PoodleMommy Yorkie Love

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    :hail:

    While I dont fully agree with PuppyDogs statement... inexperienced people can take on any kind of dog as long as they are willing to educate themselves properly... her part about your friend having blood on her hands is spot on.

    If you choose to take on an unaltered female and male and keep them in the same house, it is your responsibility to ensure they dont mate (unless of course your a breeder).

    Why in the world would she have brought two unaltered chi's into her house if she wasnt ready to take on the responsibility. Now she is against abortion and is in the end going to probably kill all dogs involved... she has to take responsibility for this... who else is going to?!

    She probably thinks she can sell these "teacup" chis and make money well you dont make money off of dead dogs and she needs to know that.

    There isnt a nice way to say it.
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I can't imagine how tiny those pups would be !
     
  9. tjedt

    tjedt New Member

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    i really don't know maybe she is just trying to be optimistic and praying that god will take care of her dog and she will be spared for abiding by the commandment " thow shall not kill"
    as silly as that might sound it could be how she is thinking.

    labor is scary with anyone or any animal i almost died giving birth to my forth child and i never had any problems before that.

    it happens i know and cause of it i never want to do it again.........

    now her reasons for keeping this possible pregnancy is just that..... hers and we cant really do anything about it but hope and pray ourselves that
    1.. she make the right choice.
    2..god protects this poor dog

    i have to as a friend support her even if i don't agree.
    I know you can't believe everything you read on the internet.
    I know it's dangerous for that pup to have these babies.
    I know she can die before she even delivers.
    I know how sensitive the puppies are going to be and the mother even after birth.
    I know about all the problems newborn chihuahua's can be born with.
    I know that a pregnant chihuahua needs special diets while pregnant and after.

    i know all this stuff because i have tried to educated myself about it as much as i can so i can help her because she works and i don't.
    i am doing this cause i care about her and her dog and i wish i could do more but i don't know what to do???
    i don't have the money to be offering out for a e-spay as i am a single income home and i have 4 kids and a dog i have to worry about myself and my pup and my kids come first.

    i have contacted a pet nurse so she can assist IF she chooses not to pre book a c-section so someone other then myself and her can be there who knows what to do and what to look for cause i also don't live close so if i cant make it i don't want her to be alone.

    this is why as a last resort so if all else fails and she doesn't listen to me i want to know what she needs to look for and how to know something is wrong before birth or during whelping.

    so if someone can tell me so i can tell her when the time comes that would be great even though i know you all feel a e-spay is her best choice or if that's not an option a pre booked c-section.
     
  10. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Just curious.. what is a 'pet nurse'?
     
  11. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    a canine midwife I presume. They are out there.
     
  12. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Really.. hmm where do you find them? Sounds interesting. I wonder how much they cost?
     
  13. tjedt

    tjedt New Member

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    a pet nurse is a woman in the area here who is a registered nurse who grew up on a farm and has a lot of animal experience.
    she has assisted in a lot of different breeds with whelping and some medical issues with animals and she takes care of them as well when your not able too.

    she is just someone who will have more experience then both of us who can be there for support and has a medical back round.

    dekka we are both from ontario so i found her online and when i spoke to her she explained the experience she has and i guess it is like a midwife for dogs.

    also her prices are flexible depending on what you require

    her ad advertised as "pet nurse" and she provides a lot of different services with animals since she grew up on a farm she has had a lot of hands on experience with animals ........but i hear what your saying about toy breeds but something is better then nothing she has more experience then we both do.
     
  14. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    oh so its just a human nurse. I have lots of friends who are human nurses with lots of animal experience. But unless this person has lots of experience toy dog whelping experience they are not going to be all that helpful. Heck I breed JRTs (which are fairly small) and I would say I wouldn't be able to be of much actual help.
     
  15. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I always was present with any whelps my males sired .... I could imagine it with Chi's though . Clearing phlegm from 1# golden pup would be much easier than a tiny Chi !
     
  16. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Has she contacted a local chi breeder or at least toy breeder? I think that would be the best thing to do other than abort, of course.
     
  17. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    honestly tjedt...
    a pet nurse is going to be NO HELP what so ever.

    i AM experienced, i grew up with chis, my grandfather has bred and raised many, i was present for 90% of whelps from the age of 7, my grandmother was a veterinary assistant and highly exerienced whelping before even ever meeting my granfather...
    and both grew up on farms

    but...
    during a chihuahua whelp...
    humans are TOO BIG to help, even the tiniest of droppers are too big for all but the normal/biggest of chi pups...
    if a pup breeches/gets stuck there is absolutly NO way to manipulate that puppy as you can with some of the larger animals...
    and with a dog this small, particularly one under 4 lbs...by the time the dog is showing sighns of stress its usually too late.

    please encorage her NOT to pay some human nurse with FARM experience (something that will offer absolutly NO help in this situation) instead spend that money on that c-section.

    HONESTLY it is this poor tiny dogs ONLY viable chance at surviving this...
    this is a human error and hoping "god" will watch over this dog is going to do NOTHING...

    many a god fearing person who KNOW what they are doing have lost females and pups during birth...
    in this case, this dogs blood IS on your freinds hands, as is the blood of each and every puppy.

    there was absolutly NO reason for that male to still be intact...she was waiting on spaying the female due to apointment dates...why wasnt the male neutered when he turned the right age?
    this is 100% her FAULT
    and the fact she is now KNOWINGLY continuing forth, HOPING god will protect this dog and her puppies...and from the sounds of it, doesnt even want to spend the money to pre-book the c-section...
    That is no better than knowing a murder is about to happen and doing NOTHING about it.
    if she cared about this dog...

    in terms of what to look for
    as ive said, if something goes wrong she will have LITERALLY minutes to get this dog to an emergency clinic, having someone who isnt epereinced in whelping a dog this small is NOT going to help unless they have a rocket powerd car or a transporter beam...

    in a dog that small ANY sign of stressing uncomfortable beyond be is an emergency...
    strain goes straight to the heart, and being this is a young chi and so small its hihgly likely that her heart is already not up to full par (murmers are highly common particularly in tiny chis) so any amount of stress on this dog could cause her to have a heart attack. pushing with no production of a puppy will kill her, and she will exhaust quickly.

    PLEASE...
    in this situation its not a case of "oh it would be a good idea to pre-book the c-section"
    its a case of "she MUST pre-book a c-section if she cares even a little about this dog"

    this dog will not likley survive even an attempt at a natural birth...
    the fact that shes a BABY and pregnant is bad enough but to simply hope god will protect her is like sitting back and going "ehh, whatever!"

    i understand your doing your best here, this isnt your desicion ect...
    but quite honestly...in my years...
    i HAVE ended freindships over situations like this...
    if your friend wont listen over sincere concern for this tiny little dog she Claims she loves...then shes NOT a good friend...

    personally at this point, youve offered her advice shes obviously unwilling to accept it, i would simply say goodbye and walk away...

    a real freind takes advice, acepts, listens and takes to heart...
    seems however in this case your frined doesnt care enough.


    unfortunatly ive SEEN this before...

    a girl with a very small chi (her girl was just over 3lbs at 2yrs old) "accidentally" mated with her 6 yr old 4lb intact male...she wouldnt abort because "it was against god" and ignored even her vets advice...
    the female started delivery, after 15 mins she was in obvious distress...she got her to the emergency vet who did an imediate c-section, (breeched puppy that even they couldnt turn without a section)
    unfortunatly the stress of that 15 mins on the mothers heart killed her (she had a very mild undiagnosed murmur), and over the next 3 hours they lost all but 1 of the 3 puppies...

    this girl was extreemly upset, couldnt accept that god had let her "baby" die and threw a fit at the vets saying they killed her purposly...
    the surviving puppy died about 3 days later
    she tried to claim money from the vet for the cost of the c-section PLUS the value of the mother and all 3 puppies claiming they were "very expensive teacup chihuahuas"

    turned out that while the breeding was accidental, and while she didnt want to abort because she is religious...about a week of looking online after the mating had showed her that "teacup chihuahuas" are selling for big bucks and she figured that it would all be ok and if the dog needed a c-section shed at least make it all back on puppy sales!
    instead she not only lost her girl and all the puppies but was out $3000 in emergency c-section fees, plus another $1000 for the emergency care for the puppies, $100 for the cremation for her dog and the puppies and the cost of the supplies she did buy...
    and the judge laughed her case out...

    and grammy...

    the puppies from that litter, 3 pups, full term from a pairing about 1lb per dog larger than the op describes were born about the size of an adult mouse! they are weighed in points of an ounce! and all 3 pups fit in the palm of a female vet tech hand.

    vixieis puppies were only about 6 inches long at birth and vixie is a little over 5lbs!

    the pups form this breeding, if there lucky enough to make it to birth will be about the size of a mouse!
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  18. AGonzalez

    AGonzalez Not a lurker

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    What an informative thread (sorry not trying to hijack) I've never owned a small dog of any sort and probably never will, but I didn't know that other than c-sections being the "norm" that there was so much entailed in it. Nice to know.

    I hope the OP's friend decides to do what's right. I'm Catholic, I do NOT believe in abortion, however, if it's going to kill the mother and there's not a chance of sucess for these potential puppies to suvive, I'd go ahead with an e-spay. Besides, if she was in the vets office going for the spay when it happened, they weren't even viable of any sort, still just sperm and hadn't even reached the egg. I don't consider that abortion at all, until the cells begin to split there's no evidence of life there. How sad.
     
  19. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Thanks for the size info . I've turned pups , given mouth to mouth and have done the head " swing " to clear . I'd be scared to death to do it on a pup that tiny . Would definately be at a vets or have a C-section !
     
  20. tjedt

    tjedt New Member

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    thanks foxywench all i can say is wow!!!

    i don't think she is against booking a c-section at all today i told her in about 2-3 weeks she needs to get her to a vet and see if she is pregnant and get a sonogram and see how many there is and how big they are and to pre book a c-section cause it will cost her half the price of a emergency c-section.

    so now all i can do is keep saying that over and over i also told her the vet needs to inform her on a special diet i know they need calcium and good food but other then that i don't know if she should be doing anything else for her diet wise until she gets her to the vet.

    so if in a few weeks she doesn't listen to me i don't know what else to do.

    i know she also was waiting to get the appointment for the dog to be spayed not sure if it was for both but the clinics here have long waiting lists.

    she also didn't know what to look for in a female when they are in heat i had to tell her that they swell up down there all she noticed was she was moody.

    so now why don't we all cross our fingers and hope the tie was not successful and all this was for nothing but i will keep checking back you never know when some good advice will pop up :) and i will keep everyone posted on how everything is going.

    so for the dogs sake lets pray for NO PUPPIES!!!!

    and btw i totally agree this is all her fault any dog owner should educate them self on every aspect of the animal not just what they eat she should have been more informed and not just read what she wanted to hear.
     

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