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We have tried to explain to him over and over and over and over and over and over and over again about why he should not purchase from those breeders he listed, but he would not listen and called us ignorant. Yes, we could have been nicer but he could have too. Many of ussuggested he look at a few different breeds and/or different breeders, but he would not listen.
If he wants to purchase from one of those irresponsible doodle breeders, fine, but later on in life he'll realise a dog in need died because of it.
If he wants to purchase from one of those irresponsible doodle breeders, fine, but later on in life he'll realise a dog in need died because of it.
I don't know, as far as I know 'feedback' means opinion as much as experience. And you're generalizing again, everyone wasn't mentionning shelters, some people mentionned bad breeders, and got exactly the same insults in return. As far as I am concerned, giving feedback about the breeders he mentionned is exactly the kind of information he should have expected to receive.
Never mind that I said the dogs on that site seem to have not much human interraction, seem to have no health records, and the puppies seem to be kept in cages until they are sold. All he replied is that there is something about health records, and he totally ignored all my other points. So, tell me - what is the point of asking for feedback if you ignore it?
I don't even know why I bother saying that again, I've probably said it twice already...
For the neutering thing, I'm still totally shocked that you refused to take a puppy because the rescue was responsible and neutered it before giving it away. Because, given the choice, of course it's better to have the dogs neutered at 6 months, which is why vets do it at that age, but when you see how many people are irresponsibly breeding their dogs, the rescues have no choice if they want to make sure the dogs won't be bred (intentionally or by mistake). I can't believe that after seeing all those dogs in shelters you actually seem to be trusting owners again??? Personally, I don't. Neutering contracts are great, but if people don't respect them, nobody will notice, so neutering them first is often the best way.
Never mind that I said the dogs on that site seem to have not much human interraction, seem to have no health records, and the puppies seem to be kept in cages until they are sold. All he replied is that there is something about health records, and he totally ignored all my other points. So, tell me - what is the point of asking for feedback if you ignore it?
I don't even know why I bother saying that again, I've probably said it twice already...
For the neutering thing, I'm still totally shocked that you refused to take a puppy because the rescue was responsible and neutered it before giving it away. Because, given the choice, of course it's better to have the dogs neutered at 6 months, which is why vets do it at that age, but when you see how many people are irresponsibly breeding their dogs, the rescues have no choice if they want to make sure the dogs won't be bred (intentionally or by mistake). I can't believe that after seeing all those dogs in shelters you actually seem to be trusting owners again??? Personally, I don't. Neutering contracts are great, but if people don't respect them, nobody will notice, so neutering them first is often the best way.
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fran, we have all said these things (you said youve probably said it atleast 2 times) atleast a dozen times. one side is looking at the facts and figuring it out logically, the other side is ignoring the facts and just feeling sorry for poor jason getting his feelings hurt. hes a grown man, he should be able to think and converse like one. he cant prove his point against ours because his is based on nothing but desire to have a labradoodle and ours is based on research, experience, reading, and basic common sense. he lost the debate so he ran away to hide. look jason, Im sorry that your feelings were hurt, but its amazing how many people are on this side, and at most 3 or 4 are on your side. and the ones on your side have no argument so they say the same thing over and over.
Ok off topic a bit but this has gotton so off topic anyway why not.
If you logic (gaddy) holds than anyone w/ a hunting dog should hunt w/ that dog, anyonw w/ a water dog should use him/her for say water rescue, etc. Well sorry to say but not all people don't use their dog for what they were breed for. Many people buy papered dog and don't show them. Should any dog that is not shown or used for the purpose that it was breed for not be breed or bought? Some people like a specfic breed of dog, so they get that breed of dog. Most people don't even try to learn about a breed they just like it and get that dog. jason at least is trying to get some info.
As for adoption, I am all for it. And you don't have to tell me the statistics, I live them every week. I work for a rescue that actually take dogs from a high kill shelter and find them homes. Some are pure breeds and some are not. I do wish that less people would breed dogs, but some people want pure breed dogs and that is their choice. And yes puppy mills are horrible and i wish we could stop them all and that is why I think if possible a person should go and visit the breeder and try to get as much info about them as possible but even w/ that they can still work around it. Same w/ buying dogs from stores b/c they aren't always from reputable breeders.
There are a lot of issues here that can't be solved w/ this thread. The best we can do is give the information and people can do w/ it as they choose.
Some people think very highly of "pure breed" and don't like that doodles b/c they don't meet a certain criteria but if someone wants one then they will be breed. And those who think that you should rescue don't like them b/c then there are more mixed breed dogs out there, but again if someone wants one, there is a demand and someone will breed them and have a supply. that is the world in which we live.
Isn't the most important part that he finds a dog that fit his life, his wants, and his needs and that he loves the dog for the rest of its life and takes care of it????
If you logic (gaddy) holds than anyone w/ a hunting dog should hunt w/ that dog, anyonw w/ a water dog should use him/her for say water rescue, etc. Well sorry to say but not all people don't use their dog for what they were breed for. Many people buy papered dog and don't show them. Should any dog that is not shown or used for the purpose that it was breed for not be breed or bought? Some people like a specfic breed of dog, so they get that breed of dog. Most people don't even try to learn about a breed they just like it and get that dog. jason at least is trying to get some info.
As for adoption, I am all for it. And you don't have to tell me the statistics, I live them every week. I work for a rescue that actually take dogs from a high kill shelter and find them homes. Some are pure breeds and some are not. I do wish that less people would breed dogs, but some people want pure breed dogs and that is their choice. And yes puppy mills are horrible and i wish we could stop them all and that is why I think if possible a person should go and visit the breeder and try to get as much info about them as possible but even w/ that they can still work around it. Same w/ buying dogs from stores b/c they aren't always from reputable breeders.
There are a lot of issues here that can't be solved w/ this thread. The best we can do is give the information and people can do w/ it as they choose.
Some people think very highly of "pure breed" and don't like that doodles b/c they don't meet a certain criteria but if someone wants one then they will be breed. And those who think that you should rescue don't like them b/c then there are more mixed breed dogs out there, but again if someone wants one, there is a demand and someone will breed them and have a supply. that is the world in which we live.
Isn't the most important part that he finds a dog that fit his life, his wants, and his needs and that he loves the dog for the rest of its life and takes care of it????
S
no one said that if you dont use your dog for the purpose it was bred for you shouldnt have it. but yes, if you are going to breed you should only breed the best representatives of the breed. trial with titles, wether they are hunting, retrieving, herding whatever...are the way of proving that your dog is worthy of passing on his genes. thats how you know you are breeding to improve the breed. if you buy from someone who is breeding for profit you perpetuate the cycle of breeding for profit. its that simple. as we said a thousand times...if jason wants a labradoodle fine (its retarded but okay) atleast get one from a responsible breeder. he asked for our opinions on a whole bunch of labradoodle breeders, wether we thought they were responsible or not. several of us checked them out and our answer was no. he thought we were stupid but he couldnt back up his point with any examples except "they do a health test".
this topic has gone on for 27 pages, and has resolved nothing. for atleast the last 10 pages it has merely gone in circles. does it really need to continue??
this topic has gone on for 27 pages, and has resolved nothing. for atleast the last 10 pages it has merely gone in circles. does it really need to continue??
I do have a question of Rutland Manor's breeding practices and whether these claims are true and are they responsible?
"At Rutland Manor we breed our females back to back ( each successive cycle) The reasons for this are twofold.
Firstly - Most vets agree that it is healthier for the breeding females themselves.
Secondly - By breeding successive cycles and then retiring the breeding females several years younger than if they skipped a cycle each year, these still-young females have the chance to find a permanent home where they can spend the rest of their lives as the adored single family companion they long to be."
Rutland also seems to have ties with Tegan Park which is breeding in FL as well as Australia.
"At Rutland Manor we breed our females back to back ( each successive cycle) The reasons for this are twofold.
Firstly - Most vets agree that it is healthier for the breeding females themselves.
Secondly - By breeding successive cycles and then retiring the breeding females several years younger than if they skipped a cycle each year, these still-young females have the chance to find a permanent home where they can spend the rest of their lives as the adored single family companion they long to be."
Rutland also seems to have ties with Tegan Park which is breeding in FL as well as Australia.
There is a big difference with breeding a dog to fit some purposes and having those dogs for the same purpose. They were bred years and years ago, and the point is that people want to preserve the breeds now. Just because a dog was bred for hunting, and people don't use them for hunting anymore, doesn't mean that we should change the breed so that they don't care about hunting anymore! But they were bred for that, and it's their standard, and what good breeders are trying to maintain.
In the case of labradoodles, the project was stopped before they even got to agree on a standard, so anyone can mix any kind of lab and poodle and get a labradoodle. That's the difference. It doesn't matter what people do with them, it's the reasons they are bred for that matter, and in their case, there is no good reason to breed them, except that people want them. Thus, there is no other reason than to make money by selling them to people... Please, if you find any other good reason to breed them, tell us. I'm no expert of breeding, but I know that all the breeds we have now were created because they can do something better than other breeds. What can a labradoodle do better than another breed?
It's sure we won't solve any issue in the thread, but as you said, we can give information, and it's what we did. I love mixes, and I am completely against breeding a dog just because someone wants them! I would love to see a golden/newfoundland mix, am I going to start breeding them to get a 'newfgolden'? No, because it's totally irresponsible. It's exactly the same thing with labradoodles.
And no, the most important part isn't that everyone gets a dog that fits their life, but that they make their decision responsibly and don't condemn hundreds of other dogs by doing so. There are probably hundreds of dogs out there that would be perfect for one person, why get one that was only bred by unscrupulous people who are just in for the money? It's extremely selfish to think that someone should just get a dog that fit his life, his wants, and his needs, without caring at all that lots of dogs might suffer from it.
In the case of labradoodles, the project was stopped before they even got to agree on a standard, so anyone can mix any kind of lab and poodle and get a labradoodle. That's the difference. It doesn't matter what people do with them, it's the reasons they are bred for that matter, and in their case, there is no good reason to breed them, except that people want them. Thus, there is no other reason than to make money by selling them to people... Please, if you find any other good reason to breed them, tell us. I'm no expert of breeding, but I know that all the breeds we have now were created because they can do something better than other breeds. What can a labradoodle do better than another breed?
It's sure we won't solve any issue in the thread, but as you said, we can give information, and it's what we did. I love mixes, and I am completely against breeding a dog just because someone wants them! I would love to see a golden/newfoundland mix, am I going to start breeding them to get a 'newfgolden'? No, because it's totally irresponsible. It's exactly the same thing with labradoodles.
And no, the most important part isn't that everyone gets a dog that fits their life, but that they make their decision responsibly and don't condemn hundreds of other dogs by doing so. There are probably hundreds of dogs out there that would be perfect for one person, why get one that was only bred by unscrupulous people who are just in for the money? It's extremely selfish to think that someone should just get a dog that fit his life, his wants, and his needs, without caring at all that lots of dogs might suffer from it.
S
that can be extremely bad if you get it from an irresponsible breeder. such as every breeder you asked us to look at.
if you go through one of those breeders you could very easily end up with any number of problems, for instance hip displasia, epilepsy, cancer, heart trouble, etc etc etc. in our opinions every breeder you has us check out was a back yard breeder or puppy mill, or just very irresponsible. we have years of experience over you, that should count for something.
if you go through one of those breeders you could very easily end up with any number of problems, for instance hip displasia, epilepsy, cancer, heart trouble, etc etc etc. in our opinions every breeder you has us check out was a back yard breeder or puppy mill, or just very irresponsible. we have years of experience over you, that should count for something.
LOL this is stupid.
You're going to actually get a mutt from a breeder? You're actually going to pay $500 for a mutt? Why don't you just go get one from a shelter?
I understand paying that much to a reputable Golden breeder but... if you're going to spend that much on a mutt... it's money down the toilet. Whereas if you rescue, you could save a life, money, and get a cool mutt at the same time.
Which is the smartest way to go, you should know, you'd have to be pretty smart to make 4 times the average income a year so I trust it won't be THAT hard...
You're going to actually get a mutt from a breeder? You're actually going to pay $500 for a mutt? Why don't you just go get one from a shelter?
I understand paying that much to a reputable Golden breeder but... if you're going to spend that much on a mutt... it's money down the toilet. Whereas if you rescue, you could save a life, money, and get a cool mutt at the same time.
Which is the smartest way to go, you should know, you'd have to be pretty smart to make 4 times the average income a year so I trust it won't be THAT hard...
Most if not all of the breeders he asked us to look at are breeding doodle to doodle and at least 2 have been doing so since the late '80s or early '90s. So Im not sure if that qualifies them as mutts anymore.
If more than Tegan and Rutland are breeding back to back there could be many generations and a wide genetic base for breeding, there also seems to be a program between US breeders swapping dogs around for their breeding programs to create an even wider genetic base.
While I agree with the rescue "activists" if you are gonna shell out cash to a breeder, get your moneys worth.
If more than Tegan and Rutland are breeding back to back there could be many generations and a wide genetic base for breeding, there also seems to be a program between US breeders swapping dogs around for their breeding programs to create an even wider genetic base.
While I agree with the rescue "activists" if you are gonna shell out cash to a breeder, get your moneys worth.
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