Narrowing down..

[Dekka]

Well Aleron seems to think Maf (and others) assume a puppy can come pre programed for agility. Ie instad dog.

Maf has trained two dogs, one very difficult dog for agility. (or so she claims

Who better to know that a dog takes training than someone who has trained two dogs the masters level. One is 4 Qs away from her ATCH (thats a championship.. I am so jealous lol)

Now either Aleron is a dolt. Which I don't believe. Or she really does think Maf thinks she can by an agility dog that needs no training or 'insta agility dog'.

These two statements are logically untenable. So either Aleron has no experience in these things, or she is calling Maf a liar.

(Also Maf has repeatedly said she wants to stack the deck in her favour... not get a dog who needs no training, ust one that has drives... I am not sure how you can get from that she wants a dog who needs no training)

So for those who dont' see it as Aleron saying Maf knows nothing about agility dogs or training a dog for agility... then how do you see Aleron's posts?

 

[Aleron]

I don't see where Maf is being made out to be a liar at all-that's quite a leap....

Ya think? All this because I posted a two sentence quote, replying to someone who didn't think English Cockers or Toy Poodles could do well in agility. I'm starting to think Dekka and Mafia might just like to argue. I mean...does this quote offend anyone other than Dekka and Mafia to the point of arguing over it for several pages?

"You can’t buy a good agility dog. But you can train it. Of course, you can’t win WC with a Samoyed. But if winning WC is your goal, you probably won’t win it anyway."
Steps to find a good agility dog

Dekka, I'm curious what level and venue your dogs are currently competing? Right now I have two dogs competing in AKC Open, one should move to Excellent soon and one in Novice, should move to Open soon. One just needs one more leg and the other is just starting AKC Open but is started on his UACH (I'm not inclined to travel for and so who knows if he'll ever get it). I do CPE too but to be honest, I don't keep good track of their legs in that venue because they need so many legs in so many different things organizational skills are not my strong point Obviously, since I don't even keep track of all of the titles my dogs earn I trial and show my dogs for fun, not to measure their or my worth. There are some really awesome dogs who have a hard time getting out of Novice (my GSD was one of them, know a few more right now) and there are MACHs who just don't excite me at all.

 

[Dekka]

I haven't done much in the last few years.. but

Kaiden is in Masters Snooker and Masters jumpers and adv everything else. Oh ETA he has Qs in masters classes, not just 'there' (he competes about once a year.. so thats not tooo bad lol) He is one leg away from a CDX. He has entered 3 rally trials and has a RNMCL and a couple fo other legs in team and Adv.

Ferret (a JRT I had when I was doing things) had her CD and a HIT.

Dekka is one leg away from her CD.. not much but as she only hit two trials when she was one.. She has her RAMCL. She is advanced everything in AAC. She is almost out of level 3 CPE (soo many Qs so few trials)

Bounce just started and has a few legs of level 2 CPE.

Dash has his Junior straight racing title.

Dekka has a few dock dog legs, so did Zoe Kaiden has one pathetic jump lol.

Dekka, Kadien, Zoe, and Snip all have their GTG championship. In fact one year Zoe won the Canadian Nationals in GTG and in trailing and locating. Snip has many a reserve and champion ribbon from racing....

All this in far less than 7 years, not bad considering I have been a poor full time student for the last 6

I do it cause its fun. But to me if the dog isn't having a good time, I am not having a good time. For me its not about the Qs (lol ask anyone who watches me trial.. which is good as JRTs are not the breed to have if you like reliability.) But titles happen if you Q. You don't need to keep track.. just go to the web page and voila all your CPE legs are there (if they are updated)

Either way we weren't talking about me, but about Maf and you.. but since you started please list your dogs and their dog sport titles.

 

[elegy]

I suppose if I were the incredibly skilled Syliva Trkman, it wouldn't matter as much what dog I got. But I'm just average folks

The stuff that Steve brings to the table in agility, and I'm nowhere *near* competing, so this is not training or skills, but just who he is as a dog, is significant enough to have people remark that he's world-team quality. (Too bad I'm not.)

I didn't make that. I bought that.

 

[SaraB]

I didn't make that. I bought that.

I think there is a difference in buying a border collie for a sport like agility than searching for a non-traditional agility dog that will be a natural in agility. To me, if I'm looking to be competitive, I'd be looking at different breeds, but to each their own. You can't buy a dog and assume they are going to rock at anything and you can't choose a breeder based solely on performance titles. I think the advice about choosing an individual dog based on the traits you are looking for is the most sound advice in this entire thread.

 

[Dekka]

Sara.. then how to you answer to the people who do produce successful sport dogs far more often than other breeders?

If there is no point to it, how are they doing it?

If someone wanted a conformation prospect would you be telling them that having ch dogs as a criteria would be silly?

The problem that in most cases you are looking at getting a puppy.. its so hard to tell what they will be like when they are grown. This is why if their ancestors all had X traits then its more likely (no one ever said a guarantee) that your pup will have those traits than buying pups from lines that dont' have X at all...

ETA we bought it in Dash and whippets aren't a typical high end agility dog.

 

[SaraB]

Sara.. then how to you answer to the people who do produce successful sport dogs far more often than other breeders?

If there is no point to it, how are they doing it?

If someone wanted a conformation prospect would you be telling them that having ch dogs as a criteria would be silly?

The problem that in most cases you are looking at getting a puppy.. its so hard to tell what they will be like when they are grown. This is why if their ancestors all had X traits then its more likely (no one ever said a guarantee) that your pup will have those traits than buying pups from lines that dont' have X at all...

I'm not saying don't go looking for a performance breeder, I'm saying that everyone puts so much emphasis on So-and-so's dogs who do awesome, when BYB, rescue and mixed breeds excel as well. People hype up certain breeders and expect to get nothing but stellar dogs and then they end up disappointed. There is variance in every litter, variance in every line, we are breeding dogs not cloning them. Variance happens. Choose an individual puppy, not a line.

Edited to add: structure is easier to breed for than temperament so your line about conformation dogs is not applicable.

 

[Dekka]

The thing with rescues is often you can test them out at an older stage. So breeds that dont' have a lot of rescues (if you like to stick to one breed) its too hard to find.

There is more to a good confo dog than just structure. I know of some lovely dogs who just didn't 'shine' in the ring. And its not temperament its drive we are talking about.

Of course there is variance. A few people, including myself have brought that up earlier. But there is less variance with a breeder (nto talking rescues) who has dogs from proven lines than one who breeds with no care to those drives.

 

[Moth]

There is more to a good confo dog than just structure. I know of some lovely dogs who just didn't 'shine' in the ring. And its not temperament its drive we are talking about.

I totally agree with this. Watson's dam is a gorgeous brindle. Structurally sound, but hated being in the show ring and would not show well to save her little life. Every time she was asked to show she would allow her tail to drop and droop

 

[HayleyMarie]

well this is a relief to know that it does not matter where I get my puppy from. I was so stressed with finding the perfect breeder, I might as well go to a BYB. Maybe they will have a puppy that will fit my needs. Makes things so much easier. PHEW!!!

 

[Emily]

well this is a relief to know that it does not matter where I get my puppy from. I was so stressed with finding the perfect breeder, I might as well go to a BYB. Maybe they will have a puppy that will fit my needs. Makes things so much easier. PHEW!!!

I must have missed something...

 

[Dekka]

LOL I think her implication is that since parental drives and temperament aren't significant then it doesn't matter and she might as well go to a BYB. Since BYB can excel at things just as well as purpose bred dogs why bother with well bred dogs?

I mean if you say its going to vary anyway and that breeders can't breed for drives or tempament with any accuracy (other than BCs) then why bother going to a kennel, meeting the parents and worrying about the characteristics of the lines.

I have to say this makes me laugh. If breeding for temperament and drive didn't work then what the heck am I doing

Seren is a 1/2 sibling to Kat. She is VERY similar in many ways to Kat. Behaviour and temperament.. things that aren't just breed related. Genetics play a significant role in temperament and drives. No its not as easy as breeding for coat colour. But just because something is a little tricky doens't mean we shouldn't try.

Sure rescue dogs are often great.. but at what ratio. Ie if you got great agility champions at a ration of 5:9 dogs (say) but what is the ration out of rescue dogs.. no where near 5:9. Those numbers are just out of the air... but you see where I am going. If you are getting a puppy your odds are better going with a purpose bred dog.

Which is in fact the whole purpose of this thread.. to get a puppy with the best chance (ie stacking the deck) of excelling at agility.

 

[Aleron]

This thread has gotten big!

Dekka, you're funny. I can't really keep up with your posts right now but it seems you just play around with your dogs when you have the time/money. That you aren't a terribly "serious competitor". Isn't that sort of what you're getting on my case about? That I haven't done enough to impress you for my years of involvement?

I suppose if I were the incredibly skilled Syliva Trkman, it wouldn't matter as much what dog I got. But I'm just average folks

I dunno, I think she was like 11 when she got the Sammy that went on to be the still highest ranked northern breed ever at WC.

The stuff that Steve brings to the table in agility, and I'm nowhere *near* competing, so this is not training or skills, but just who he is as a dog, is significant enough to have people remark that he's world-team quality. (Too bad I'm not.)

I didn't make that. I bought that.

He may be "World Team quality" but it's the training that would make him a World Team dog

I think there is a difference in buying a border collie for a sport like agility than searching for a non-traditional agility dog that will be a natural in agility. To me, if I'm looking to be competitive, I'd be looking at different breeds, but to each their own. You can't buy a dog and assume they are going to rock at anything and you can't choose a breeder based solely on performance titles. I think the advice about choosing an individual dog based on the traits you are looking for is the most sound advice in this entire thread.

Good post :hail:

Just because someone is a "performance breeder" doesn't mean they have great dogs. Sometimes they do. And sometimes it just means they are really, really great trainers

well this is a relief to know that it does not matter where I get my puppy from. I was so stressed with finding the perfect breeder, I might as well go to a BYB. Maybe they will have a puppy that will fit my needs. Makes things so much easier. PHEW!!!

My Collie was from a "BYB" and he was freaking awesome! Could never get another one because none of the "well bred" Collies seem to have that sort of drive or moderate looks. Our corgi is "BYB" too and if I knew where he came from, I'd probably buy another And on the well bred side of things, I've gotten some really nice puppies out of my very few litters and have bought some very cool dogs over the years.

 

[Dekka]

No, you were inferring Maf doesn't know what she is doing. It wasn't about me.


THough I did post mine, and I dont' have nearly the years of experience you do. Are you going to post yours?

You are saying that "sammy' had no natural talent.. that she took a low drive non motivated dog and made it a world star all before puberty? Great for her..

But the reason its so unusual is because its unusual. If that was the way to get great agility dogs everyone would be doing it.


Glad to know you would support BYB if you got the chance....

Now as to breeders who are just good trainers. That is where doing your homework comes in. How to puppy buyers do? If their puppies do well in other people's hands its not just the breeder/trainer then it it.

 

[Gypsydals]

It is is possible to stack the deck for what you are looking for. Its not a guarantee, but heck nothing in life is guaranteed, except death. Not every dog has the want (which is the big part of doing ANYTHING remotely serious) to do things. And everyone tries to stack the deck in favor of what they are looking for. Wether it be agility, OB, Confo, herding or what not. Breeders a looking to stack the deck for their next confo dog, every time they spend 6 months or longer in picking a stud.
By using Ch parents, with Ch grandparents and so forth you have stacked the deck in favor of getting atleast 1 or more Show potential.
By using herding dogs with herding back grounds you are stacking the deck to have pups with a herding aptitude. Same with hunting dogs.
Heck even a majority of pet people are looking to stack the deck in their favor. They are looking for a certain look, certain temperament.
YOu can look for speed and find it. You can look for temperament and find it. You can look for herding, hunting ability and find it. Every time a breeder breeds for something specific they are stacking the deck. Is everyone of those pups going to be successful at what the breeder had intended, no. But that is part of life.


SO Mafia, keep looking you will find what you are looking for.

 

[elegy]

I dunno, I think she was like 11 when she got the Sammy that went on to be the still highest ranked northern breed ever at WC.

Right, because Sylia Trkman brings something to the table in agility that, one might suggest, is born as much as it is trained. Because I am never going to be that handler, no matter how much time and effort I put into it. It doesn't come naturally to me. I don't have the body awareness, I don't read and see dog movement the way she does, I don't have the sense of timing that she does. I can get better, but I'll never have the talent that she does. That's why she's famous and remarkable and able to do what she does no matter what dog she brings to the start line.

 

[Sapphire-Light]

Right, because Sylia Trkman brings something to the table in agility that, one might suggest, is born as much as it is trained. Because I am never going to be that handler, no matter how much time and effort I put into it. It doesn't come naturally to me. I don't have the body awareness, I don't read and see dog movement the way she does, I don't have the sense of timing that she does. I can get better, but I'll never have the talent that she does. That's why she's famous and remarkable and able to do what she does no matter what dog she brings to the start line.

Plus there's also the luck factor, what would have happened if she were born in a contry like the one I live?

No agility stuff, no contests , trials, etc..

You can't even take your dog anyware you want since robbers can take it and even kill you for steal a dog. Translation result for http://www.milenio.com/node/652595

 

[Taqroy]

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Aleron]

Right, because Sylia Trkman brings something to the table in agility that, one might suggest, is born as much as it is trained. Because I am never going to be that handler, no matter how much time and effort I put into it. It doesn't come naturally to me. I don't have the body awareness, I don't read and see dog movement the way she does, I don't have the sense of timing that she does. I can get better, but I'll never have the talent that she does.

Not with an attitude like that!

"I am not suggesting that all dogs were born with the same amount of God given talent. I am saying that how we as dog owners respond to disappointments along the way play a massive roll in not only bringing out this dog’s true potential but also in how enjoyable the journey is for each of us along the way!

The flip side of the “victim†coin is the “player.†Life doesn’t happen “to you†it happens “for you.†Every situation has an upside and ever state can be changed in a blink of an eye. You do not need to re-live your pain by telling everyone that is in ear shot of what just happened, you search for a way you can make life better for you and your dog.

I am dyslexic. I consider that one of the biggest blessings in my life because it has developed within me a unique “outside the box mentality.†I learn differently, I see things differently, so I approach dog training differently; which I know is a big reason for my ability to innovate and have success at what I do.

Now reading that last statement those of you that are victims would have said to yourself “oh crap that explains it, Susan Garrett is the kind of dog trainer that I can never be because I am not dyslexic!â€" Victim or Player | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog

No, you were inferring Maf doesn't know what she is doing. It wasn't about me.

THough I did post mine, and I dont' have nearly the years of experience you do. Are you going to post yours?

Well it wasn't about you initially but you have sort of made it about you. You haven't been all that competitive with your dogs, yet you slam me for my perceived lack of experience.

What I was suggesting was that people shouldn't discount X breed for agility - lots of people are doing fine with their non-traditional breeds. That should have been a perfectly appropriate thing to suggest on a thread where the person is hoping to get a super competitive non-traditional breed. But because I suggested that one can't buy a great agility dog (well I quoted someone who did any way), I must have no clue what I'm talking about. Probably have never even done agility

Obviously some dogs are much easier to get speed on than others. But those dogs often come with their own set of challenges that can cause them to fail as an agility super star too. I can't tell you how many really super awesome dogs I have seen who would be sooooooo great...if only they could keep bars up or or hit their contacts or not become frantic while running or... These dogs, with different training could have been superstars. Their owners may have bought a dog with potential but they didn't buy a great agility dog (and didn't train one either).

 

[SaraB]

well this is a relief to know that it does not matter where I get my puppy from. I was so stressed with finding the perfect breeder, I might as well go to a BYB. Maybe they will have a puppy that will fit my needs. Makes things so much easier. PHEW!!!

HAHAHAHA so glad that was what you took from what I said. We ALL know there are many reasons to not buy from a BYB and I would never advocate doing that.

Way to pick bits out of context.