Narrowing down..

[Aleron]

I'd say part is your venue of choice. Our (Dekka and mine) venue is fast, and twisty on average. I know there are no guarantees, but ?I plan to stack the deck for success. I love Smudge, he chooses to share my bed nightly and Cider does not. Consistently slow with a lack of drive is not something that likely will blossom into something highly competitive. It may, but the likelihood is low.

Well the quote was from Silvia Trkman who competes at the World Championship level very successfully. I'm relatively certain that's a higher level than AAC Her first PyrShep was afraid of everything but with training learned to be a very fast, confident agility dog, multi-National Champion and got multiple placements at the National. Her first BC is low drive and has some serious quirks, yet she's also a multi-National Champion and has been very competitive at World Championships (and FWIW was from a breeder trying to breed for "smokin' fast reliable dogs"). So I'd say she probably knows what she's talking about

There are many people who would argue that if what you really want is a very competitive agility dog, known of those breeds are suitable because none will ever have the drive of a BC. Of course, I've seen such people try to buy "smokin' fast reliable dogs" and end up with dogs who still aren't competitive.

I'm not saying that I'm not picky about my puppies because I certainly am. Well at least usually. Savvy was the first PyrShep puppy I looked at and his his parents are not performance dogs but he was too perfect to pass up But it is a bit silly to think you can buy a puppy that will be guaranteed to be fast and reliable in agility. Higher drive dogs are likely to like to be fast (not always though, some high drive GSDs are rather slow in agility) but the reliability comes with training. I know plenty of fast dogs (some extremely fast) who rarely Q because they knock bars or blow contacts. That isn't really a problem with the dog, so much as the training. I also know dogs who should have been fast dogs and should have really been perfect for agility who just...aren't.

 

[Dekka]

Well the quote was from Silvia Trkman who competes at the World Championship level very successfully. I'm relatively certain that's a higher level than AAC Her first PyrShep was afraid of everything but with training learned to be a very fast, confident agility dog, multi-National Champion and got multiple placements at the National. Her first BC is low drive and has some serious quirks, yet she's also a multi-National Champion and has been very competitive at World Championships (and FWIW was from a breeder trying to breed for "smokin' fast reliable dogs"). So I'd say she probably knows what she's talking about

See and that was exactly one of my points. A drivey dog that lacks confidence, with training and confidence will be fast. A happy out going non drivey dog is not likely to be fast no matter how much you train it.

And as we said it stacks the deck. Of course you can breed for it. That is like saying you can't breed for herding drive, or hunting drive. Sure its not going to be 100% but its going to be a LOT more reliable than getting a dog from low drive lines and hoping.

FWIW I would love to see a world class competitors definition of a low drive BC... might still be high drive to many of us Though I personally know people who have gone to worlds, and done well. I know at least one of them would whole heartedly agree that you should get a dog with the greatest potential (that you want to live with) and that you can breed for agility talent.


(oh the AAC has a challenge class, which is supposed to be world championship type classes... think beyond masters)

 

[Sapphire-Light]

I didn't think those dogs showed any special degree of drive, just that they were trainable for agility, successful and having fun. There are dogs of most breeds doing agility and within every breed there are varying degrees of drive and trainability for dog sports. My post was mostly at the implication that English Cockers were too lazy for agility and Toy Poodles too fragile. Your best bet for a performance dog is to pick a breed and puppy you like, train it to the best of your ability, have reasonable expectations and...have fun!

"You can’t buy good agility dog. But you can train it. Of course, you can’t win WC with a Samoyed. But if winning WC is your goal, you probably won’t win it anyway." Silvia Trkman

I'm not saying it cannot be done, but it harder that in other breeds

At least Pompadour could do like two rounds, but if he does many in a day at top speed he would get tired soon.

That is a guess since we don't have those agillity things were I live , he likes to run and play , it's only for short periods.

The english cockers I have met (all of them BYB) don't have interest in running and jumping, however I have never met a well breed one.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Think I've had enough honestly. Coming from someone who does mainly confo... and has nothing more than a few low end performance titles.. I think I've heard enough.

I have a list now of decent breeders breeding for performance.. Glad you can tell the worlds are higher than AAC.

I'd still like to stack the deck. People wanting to herd wouldn't go to a breeder who only has HIC titles, or doesn't herd at all. I'm trying to do the same thanks.

 

[Aleron]

See and that was exactly one of my points. A drivey dog that lacks confidence, with training and confidence will be fast. A happy out going non drivey dog is not likely to be fast no matter how much you train it.

And as we said it stacks the deck. Of course you can breed for it. That is like saying you can't breed for herding drive, or hunting drive. Sure its not going to be 100% but its going to be a LOT more reliable than getting a dog from low drive lines and hoping.

Herding and hunting are a bit different, as agility is not an instinctual behavior. My friend has a well bred Brittany and while he would need training to compete at the higher levels, he needed no training at all to know to run far and wide, find birds and point them. He has awesome potential as an agility dog but he needed to be taught to do the equipment though, he didn't have agility instinct to just do the obstacles or anything. In fact, I've not seen one dog who agility instinct. Hence the training comment, which really was innocent enough. Oh well, good luck in finding an Instant Agility Star

 

[Dekka]

I had a post but chaz ate it

No agility isn't instinctual, but the drives ARE. Not all dog sports that are about drive are completely instinctual.. protection work and herding require training (how else does the dog know where the people want the sheep) Yes a JRTs working ability pretty much is instinctual.

But you know how those drives got there? Humans bred them into breeds. So yes you can breed dogs who have lots of drive and will excel in sports like agility and flyball. Drive is simply the amount of desire for something/activity. The more desire a dog has to work for something the easier they are to motivate. A dog who has no desire for much is not going to be a fun, nor terribly successful dog sport dog...

Yes people do have success with less than ideal dog sport dogs. Its often a long road, and for everyone who succeeds there are MANY who don't. ANd those people who have struggled with a less confident or hard to motivate dog are often those who are most likely to be picky about their next dog to ensure that they get a good partner.

When choosing a dog I not only want a dog who fits into my home life, I want one who will enjoy themselves playing with me. Kaiden isn't terribly high drive. He has done well, but he doesn't love the game. Its just something he does. Dekka on the other hand, is a very driven dog... she has food drive, play drive, prey drive and more. This has been focused on agility which she now loves with a passion to the point of it being a bit of a problem at times lol.

As an example this summer I learnt just how much Dekka desires to play agility. There was loud thunder and Dekka was shaking like leaf, trying to drag me over to the people sitting in chairs so she could hide under them and wouldn't eat the treats I had with me despite them being very high value. We had no start line stay but she laid down a very fast (as in worlds type fast) fairly accurate run (we had an off course).

It is this sort of drive that Maf is looking for. It absolutely can be bred for. To say it can't be is kind of silly when you look at the breeders out there doing it. Does that mean every pup is a stellar dog? No, but most are.

Dekka is from my first ever litter. Only two went into agility homes. Dekka's sister has made it to nationals and is getting better all the time People who have been doing it for generations not only will be producing higher drive and biddable dogs at a higher rate than say confo breeders, they also will be far better at picking a puppy than a confo breeder.

That doesn't mean its certain. For example Wash has turned out a bit shy. But stacking the deck in your favour sounds like a smart plan when you are looking for a companion to live and play with.

ETA if you think anyone is looking for an insta agility star you aren't reading the posts.

you are assuming Maf knows little about agility, when she is likely one of the most accomplished people in dog sports on this entire forum. She knows (and has) that you need to put an ass load of work to train a dog. That is the whole point. She wants a dog that will enjoy the ass load of work and be good at the end of it. Not a 'not quite make time' dog.

I have to say I am a little shocked if you are a breeder (I dont' pay attention) that you hold this attitude that these things can't be bred for and that if someone wants a dog that will likely have aptitude in a sport they are looking for an insta (insert sport here) dog...

 

[elegy]

I'm very curious to see what you end up with, Maf!

 

[Aleron]

But you know how those drives got there? Humans bred them into breeds. So yes you can breed dogs who have lots of drive and will excel in sports like agility and flyball. Drive is simply the amount of desire for something/activity. The more desire a dog has to work for something the easier they are to motivate.

You don't say

I have to say I am a little shocked if you are a breeder (I dont' pay attention) that you hold this attitude that these things can't be bred for and that if someone wants a dog that will likely have aptitude in a sport they are looking for an insta (insert sport here) dog...

Where in the world did you get that I said things can't be bred for? Or that I think someone looking for a drivey dog is looking for an instant agility dog? I do think it's quite silly to act as though training has little to nothing to do with great performance dogs though.

“You can’t buy good agility dog. But you can train it. Of course, you can’t win WC with a Samoyed. But if winning WC is your goal, you probably won’t win it anyway." Steps to find a good agility dog

Is that really such a controversial suggestion?

 

[Dekka]

Yes it it.

This thread is about someone looking to find a great agility partner... you are implying any reasonable (non Samie) dog can do it if you can train hard enough.

Thats trite, over simplistic and incorrect. Yes many people would have better dogs if they trained more. But the fact you said you can't buy talent. I say yes you can.

You say agility isn't instinctual, I say what makes a great agility dog is based on instinctual drives.

No one said anything in any of this thread about wanting a guarantee of a great agility prospect, but of stacking the deck. Yet you seem to be certain that people cannot do that. I disagree, I have seen lines of border stafs where an entire litter turned out jaw droppingly fast and biddable.

The nice thing about talking to ppl in AAC is you are relegated to purebred dogs, so you get a lot more discussion about breeding for agility than you would say in AKC/CKC as you don't have the option of purpose breeding agility dogs.

While I have no real desire to mix my JRTs with anything I do plan to start over breeding a line of nice small correct JRTs that have natural drives and excel in dog sports. Basically your posts have been telling me (generic me.. any breeder who wishes to do this) that I am wasting my time.

I do wonder what your actual experience is with agility. I did find your website. Cute dogs.. as you move up into competitive levels and non CPE you might notice that most dogs doing well at the masters level are ones that have natural talent, vs just training.

 

[CaliTerp07]

If you're interested in getting in touch with Melissa at Skyrocket, let me know. She's who I train & assist agility with. Over the past year there have been several cocker pups with really nice potential she's placed.

 

[stardogs]

I do have to say that ime it's much easier to stack the deck when you can see a dog as an older pup, regardless of background, breed, etc. It's way easier to assess drives, social traits, etc. once they are more than a little roly poly lump.

Ziva I adopted at 5.5mo and she is an aaaamazing little agility dog - got her Master Agility Dog title in USDAA in 10 trials, saves my a$$ regularly on course, and is doing well in Tournament classes as well as titling classes as we work toward her ADCH. I have no idea what her mix is, but I selected her because she had everything I wanted (balanced toy and food drives, love of work, very social but not to the extreme, secure with new sounds and surfaces, etc.) and all those traits have held true as she's matured.

Kes is not as far along in agility as I'd like but he is doing quite well in dock diving competitions. I adopted him at about 16 weeks - he came home as a foster due to his breed and gender, but I kept him because, again, he had the drives and temperament I wanted.

I know you're talking about a purebred puppy, but I guess I'm just trying to point out that the selection process of the individual puppy is just as important as finding the right breed or breeder.

Hopefully you'll be able to assess the puppies yourself or have another experienced person do so - sometimes it's enough to find a litter you like and then base your final decision on the individual. Be willing to walk away if you can't find that perfect fit, too, though I know that's hard when it's a litter of puppies!

 

[MafiaPrincess]

If you're interested in getting in touch with Melissa at Skyrocket, let me know. She's who I train & assist agility with. Over the past year there have been several cocker pups with really nice potential she's placed.

Cali, does she plan to put her site back up again? I enjoyed browsing and seeing what her dogs were up to if nothing else. I used to peruse her site regularly..

 

[Aleron]

Yes it it.

This thread is about someone looking to find a great agility partner... you are implying any reasonable (non Samie) dog can do it if you can train hard enough.

Not me. The quote is from someone who as a teenager, trained the highest placing Northern breed ever at World Championships, has won the World Championships twice and is always competitive in them. Perhaps you should email her and correct her for her misunderstanding that great agility dogs require training. I mean she shouldn't be spreading that sort of misinformation.

And just today she posted this to FB :O

"I’m definitely guilty of getting Bu with expectations: I expected from a BC to have a drive and love to play. She had neither of the two and it sure affected our relationship at first. But that taught me to forget about the expectations, accept the challenge and enjoy the journey. She might not be a dog I expected to get – but she is so much more! If I tried to make a perfect agility dog out of her, I would never learn that. So forget about a perfect agility dog – just make sure you make a perfect team with your dog. – Your dog who should first and foremost be your best friend. – And should always come first, before any result." LoLaBu Land Experience · It’s all about the teamwork

The nice thing about talking to ppl in AAC is you are relegated to purebred dogs, so you get a lot more discussion about breeding for agility than you would say in AKC/CKC as you don't have the option of purpose breeding agility dogs.

Plenty of people in AKC breeding dogs for agility (and for competition obedience). AKC's acceptance of mixed breeds is a pretty recent thing and not all trials are even open to them. We actually don't see many sport mixes in AKC, at least in my area. Probably because mixed breeds have to be altered.

While I have no real desire to mix my JRTs with anything I do plan to start over breeding a line of nice small correct JRTs that have natural drives and excel in dog sports. Basically your posts have been telling me (generic me.. any breeder who wishes to do this) that I am wasting my time.

Do the hardcore JRT people find that as appalling as the hardcore BC people find breeding BCs for sport? I know the BCboards get all up in arms when someone talks about buying a sport bred BC puppy.

Again, I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I ever said one can't breed for drive.

I do wonder what your actual experience is with agility. I did find your website. Cute dogs.. as you move up into competitive levels and non CPE you might notice that most dogs doing well at the masters level are ones that have natural talent, vs just training.

Great job "finding" my website. One of these days I get back to working on it and updating it. If you must know I've been involved in agility since the mid 90s and have competed in many different venues over the years. Also have competed in competition OB, Rally and conformation as well as dabbling in SchH, tracking, flyball, herding, lure coursing (now my dogs can "compete" in that too!) and whatever else caught my attention. All of my dogs had to be trained though :dunno:

 

[CaliTerp07]

Cali, does she plan to put her site back up again? I enjoyed browsing and seeing what her dogs were up to if nothing else. I used to peruse her site regularly..

It's not high on the list of her priorities. I actually volunteered to redesign and code her site over the summer if she'd tell me what she wanted on it, but she never got back to me.

I think part of the reason is she hasn't really had time to trial a lot lately. She's teaching full time, judging part time, and has moved something crazy like 3 times in a year for various reasons. Plus the health issues, of course (though praise God she seems to be in the clear )

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Well, I'm glad to hear she's okay. You always wonder is it health, did they stop breeding.. I heard about the previous health issues and hoped she was still good..

Her site could use a redesign It's nice to know she's busy. I'll totally keep her on my list.

 

[Dekka]

All of my dogs had to be trained though :dunno:

WTF?

Are you doing this on purpose, or do you have a reading comprehension issue?

Of course dogs have to be trained.... YOU, yes YOU are the only one acting like some people think they don't.

My dogs too have done obed, rally, agility (and movies and commercials) Maf's dogs do rally, and a few venues of agility (as seen in her siggy) All the people who replied to this thread have trained dogs for dog sports.

Just what are you assuming exactly?

I can buy a good herding prospect... still takes training, just like with horses I can buy a good dressage prospect... still takes training.

Or do you really think that any dog with training can do great?

I am most confused as your posts don't make sense... and they don't make sense if your dogs are all masters level agility dogs..

 

[MafiaPrincess]

All I want is a good agility prospect. I am unsure why that is deserving of so much attitude from you Aleron.

The endless Sylvia Trkman posts are getting old. As is the attitude she's better than me. Why thank you. I'm mildly aware, you are more full of yourself than needed.

Great job "finding" my website. One of these days I get back to working on it and updating it. If you must know I've been involved in agility since the mid 90s and have competed in many different venues over the years. Also have competed in competition OB, Rally and conformation as well as dabbling in SchH, tracking, flyball, herding, lure coursing (now my dogs can "compete" in that too!) and whatever else caught my attention. All of my dogs had to be trained though

Gee whiz, agility since the 90's. Belgians for 10 years, web site that isn't that out of date as your 2010 litter is on it, and lure coursing is in your list of things you do with your dogs.. yet the AKC added it for all breeds feb of this year. Agility isn't in you list of things you do with your dogs.

Can't be that out of date. So yet again for all the attitude where are the titles to back the snark up? Herding breed, that you breed yet I see a few HICs. You proclaim decades now of agility experience yet you have AKC novice titles, and CPE level one and two titles.

In fact, I've not seen one dog who agility instinct. Hence the training comment, which really was innocent enough. Oh well, good luck in finding an Instant Agility Star

Endless snideness. Who said I wanted an instant star? Seems it was all you.. I am kind of offended. As Cider has been rocking the dog sports and that has required a lot of training.. are you calling me a liar? Do you think my siggy is a lie? The only way your statements make sense is if I had never trained a dog in dog sports. Yet I have trained 2. So that leaves me to conclude you don't believe that I actually do dog sports and my siggy is a lie...

 

[Linds]

Endless snideness.

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[Dekka]

What snideness? I reread this thread (or are you talking about other threads?) Where Aleron keeps saying that Maf is looking for an insta dog and thinks she will get a dog she doesnt' need to train.

Keeps going on about you need to train an agility dog (preachign to the choir, we all know that ) but just won't let up.

She won't put her money where her mouth is. I really don't blame Maf for getting fed up. Being fed up and telling someone to put up or shut up isn't the same as coming into a thread and basically calling Maf a liar. Because she is right, insinuating that she thinks agility takes no training is also insinuating she has little to no experience and the titles in her siggies are a lie. I would get snarky too if someone kept insinuating I was a liar and saying that wanting a dog from good proven bloodlines was some how 'bad' because I wasn't as good as "X" world competitor....

 

[sillysally]

I don't see where Maf is being made out to be a liar at all-that's quite a leap....