My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by ufimych, Jul 11, 2009.

  1. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    I don't want to get in the breeding part of it, but there are definitely health benefits for dogs spending a lot of time outside. Not just dogs, but humans too.

    The thing that makes an outside dog a bad thing, is that most people automatically assume it is left outside, alone, with little to no human interaction.

    But if you have an active sporting/farmer owner who spends his/her life mostly outdoors, it becomes a healthy and fulfilling lifestyle for the dog as well.

    One of my friends went to a canine reproduction workshop, taking a whole boatload of notes. One thing that kept showing up over and over and over again is the importance of natural sunlight. Lack of natural sunlight was linked strongly to calcium absorption problems, small litter sizes, low birth weight, higher incidence of c section, infertility in males and females, etc. The lecturer went on a rant about how many show kennel folks keep their dogs indoors to keep sunlight from bleaching/damaging the coat, cleanliness, etc. and how it had a huge negative impact on the overall health and reproduction of the dogs.

    For what it's worth, the longest lived irish wolfhound known lived to be 18 years old. That is more than twice the average life expectancy of the breed. He was born and died in Alaska. He never, ever once stepped foot inside the house. Not even when it was -60 F out. His family tried and tried to bring him in but he refused. He is a very famous dog among IW folks, and he also belonged to Strider's ob trainer's aunt.

    I'm intrigued by the lifespan of ufimych's dogs, because that is very high for a sight hound. Even if we don't agree with his breeding practices, I do believe he has something to offer us that *gasp* maybe we don't know yet.

    If I remember correctly, aren't your dogs imports also? I think you posted something about having to import salukis because you had a hard time finding dogs in the US the way you liked them, but maybe I am remembering wrong.
     
  2. mom2dogs

    mom2dogs New Member

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    Would love to see more pictures! I think people who are jumping to conclusions should, I don't know, ask? He seems willing to talk. Everyone has different ways of caring for their dogs, bitches, puppies. I might not choose to whelp my litter in the way the OP does, but I also don't agree with the way many people here would call reputable, care for them or raise them either. Like I said, more pictures are a must and I look forward to reading more posts by you ufimych.

    btw Romy, he mentioned in his first post three of his Salukis are imports (one from Russia, two from Kazakhstan). If someone is breeding solely for the money, I don't think they would take the time to research breeders/folks in another country and bring the lines over here. JMO. Also strongly agree that most outdoors dogs *I have* been around, have been much healthy AND better looking compared to those living a sheltered life and are hardly out in the sunlight. I certainly notice a difference in my own bitch's pigment when she is deprived of the sun. . . proof enough for me, even if it seems cosmetic (for lack of a better word).
     
  3. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    my probelm is not with the outside dogs thing
    my probelm is 10 puppies born in a wooden box, NO vet care for even a check up, they do their own vacinations (which can be bad even when handled with the utmost care, bad batches are not uncommon even for vets and theres no way to know for certain), these pups are also way too young for flea/tick protection and fleas are a huge killer of young puppies...
    the COMPLETE lack of ANY kind of vet interaction has me utterly skeeved...

    not all dogs do better outside all the time...
    cresites for example will BURN and need sunscreen (even with slow exposure the breed is sun sensitive...) white dogs are sun sentivie in general...

    theres just something about the entire situation and responce to the questions asked that is not sitting right...
     
  4. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    Salukis are NOT a primitive breed.

    They are an ancient breed, but they are highly refined to be coursers. I've never seen anywhere, that they were to fend for themselves at any point. They are not double coated, and they appear to have the twice yearly heat cycle of domesticated dogs. True primitive breeds are double coat (Dingo, Carolina, NGSD) and a yearly cycle to assure that the young are born during favorable conditions.

    There is merit in breeding for dogs to have fewer birthing and mothering problems, but not at the expense of forgoing any vet care, especially under the presumption or excuse that it is a primitive breed. Especially when that dog is not a primitive breed in the first place.
     
  5. Dogs6

    Dogs6 Plus One

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    Different people have different ways . I have never seen a saluki but from what has been described they do not seem suited to a life lived entirely outside. But regardless of whether saluki's are suited to living outside all the time no puppies should be born outside if the breeder wants to give them the best start in life. That is the part I find appalling especially since the puppies are receiving no veterinary care.
     
  6. LauraLeigh

    LauraLeigh New Member

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    Many, many breeders do their own shots.... I did, and every mentor I had did as well. I never did vet care unless needed when my pups whelped, again neither did any of my mentors, I did have check ups from the vet on my JRTs before they went to their new homes, but not when we had hounds.

    Iam going to share something on here that will likely get me flamed, but really, I honestly don't care... We had a great working hound named,ironically,Jack.. she (yes, Jack was a girl:D) hated the house, and lived outside, sleeping with the goats.. We tried bringing her in, but she paced and dug the crap out of the door, we bred her at 3 years of age, she whelped a litter of 6 pups outside... now I was home full time then, I watched her but never interfered, she whelped fine, those pups were raised in the goat barn and outside until they went to homes at 9 weeks of age. They were loved and socialised and were healthy, fat pups... In NS we have a huge flea problem, but they never had an issue, oddly enough I had more trouble with my house dogs, than I ever had with Jack.

    Jack passed a couple of years back, when we moved to Ontario, Jack moved in with good friends who would be able to work her, of the pups, who would be near 17 now 4 are still alive, 1 was Star, who lived a pampered life with my Father in Law and she passed last fall, 1 whom was with Jeffs Uncle passedover the Winter. Of the 4 still alive, 2 were great workers, 2 were great couch potatoes....

    Maybe it was a terrible thing, and it makes me a horrible person, but for me the proof is in the pups..... We had healthy, hardworkers, and trouble free long lived hounds... Even the JRTs which are a hardy breed, have more issues than we everhad with our hounds, gods honest truth? Other than getting frail, and maybe deaf when past about 15, I don't remember any of those hounds having any other issues... and I was from a small town, we'd have heard about it...

    We (A collective We, all the hunters in the area) bred strictly workers, not giving a crap about conformation, we mixed "types" and had a beagle"ish" looking hound, that worked rabbit like a dream, had virtually no health issues, and lived to ripe old ages, many by the foot of their owners long after they were able to hunt....
     
  7. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    This is because you keep intensive care dog breed. Others do not have to go your way. A real good working dog is a tough and healthy dog; a dog for able bodied people who spend much active time outdoors. I use service of holistic vet clinic. My vet told me not to vaccinate puppies as long as they feed on mother's milk. I do not see any reason to vaste money on vets, when my dogs are healthy. Only emergency can send me to a vet. My dogs recover snake bites, no fatalities so far. Copperheads are no problem. They still avoided rattlers. In their home country, if the dog got sick, it either dies, or survives. No vets. Natural selection takes care about weak and unfit. This is why they live a long and healthy life. Of course, hunting is inherently dangerous, sometimes, even to people, but this is a part of hunting. There are talks about developing "jelly dog" breed. Genetic engeneering makes it possible. These dogs will go in several colors, with expressive beautiful eyes, but they have to be carried from here to there. For those who keep themselves busy with dog's body, it would be a dream breed. I prefer spending active time with my dogs; they are my assistants, wild things between me and the wild. This is how dogs originated in the first place, "covenant of the wild" was made about 15 thousands years ago. Now, the covenant of the wild is broken. Dogs are deprived of freedom, degenerated and became incapacitated to perform even most natural functions without veterinary assistance. This is one reason why I am most attracted to primitive aboriginal breeds, the most natural and the least spoiled ones .
     
  8. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    If I live without doctors, do I make a mistake? Yes, I do not use any drugs and do not have my physician. Why should I? Why dogs must need a vet, if everything is fine? If I have an emergency problem, accidental serious injury, or dangerous infection, poisoning, etc., I need a doctor. I do not expect my dogs have a chronic health problems. This is a feature of aboriginal dogs - they are healthy and intelligent dogs. It is so nice to keep a dog for enjoying active time with him.
     
  9. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    It is not one of the most primitive, but it is still primitive: hard to train, shyness of unknown and artificial, stubborness, intolerance of physical punishment, one estrus per year and a few other wild traits. Besides, they have been developed long, long ago by boith natural selection to fit life with nomadic people and for the function of hunting. There are other sighthounds, which are cultured (not primitive breeds). For example, the Greyhound, the Whippet and the Scottish Deerhound. Primitive breeds range from the most wild, like Dingo, to most refined, like the Saluki and related breeds and sheep guarding dogs. However, they all share many wild traits in their behavior and physiology.
     
  10. Sweet72947

    Sweet72947 Squishy face

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    I only have one question, are your dogs vaccinated for rabies? In the state of VA, it is ILLEGAL not to have your dogs vaccinated for rabies, and you can only get this vaccination through a veterinarian (although I suppose you could get it illegally if you knew how).

    VA's wildlife has a very high rabies infection rate, especially raccoons, so I would consider this vaccination at least, extremely important in this state.
     
  11. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    The breeds mentioned are not considered "primitive breeds" they are considered POSSIBLY a natural breed, an OLD breed but NOT primitive, primitive e breeds are defined by certain STRUCTUAL things, NOT personality traits, while primitive breeds tend to be aloof and cat like just like sighthounds, THAT is not what makes them primitive...
    Shallow tooth roots, most don't have a typical dog bark but instead talk in a series of pitched yoddles, they have a hare foot usually with an extra joint in the toe giving th a monkey like grip. The crestie, xolo, basenji ect, those are primitive breeds, the dingo, mals, many of the central Asian breeds ect are considers NATURAL breeds, as far as I'm awear the sighthounds are old breeds but not considered primitive or aborigional.

    And good to know you don't treat for snake bites and are all for only the strong survive...natural selection is an amazing thing but when the animal in question is the result of YOUR descision to breed you've taken nature off it's course and therefore it's YOUR responsibility. If this was true natural selection your dogs would not pokey be purebred.
     
  12. Tailcreek

    Tailcreek New Member

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    Interesting thread.
    ufimych - I have enjoyed reading your posts. I hope you will continue to share more about your methods and philosophies on raising canines.
    I am curious, have you ever had any trouble with parasites (fleas, ticks, worms etc)? Your dogs have had good lifespans, what have they passed from? any incidents of cancer?

    Nature can be harsh at times. In a natural setting it is true that only the strong can survive and go on to reproduce.

    Human feeling and emotion stops (most of) us (myself included) from allowing nature to take its course. We interfere, at times taking extreme measures to ensure survival because we can't bear the thought of a cute little helpless puppy dying or because they are worth X $ when sold. It is looked upon as cruel if we don't try and save a pup no matter how sick they may be. But we have to ask ourselves what has the long term effect of this been?
    We interfere soooo much, not just in regards to breeding, but in how we raise our dogs. Look at all the chemicals and medications we put them on, the processed food they eat, prevented from exploring their environment and getting sufficient exercise, surgeries to impregnate, to remove pups and tack stomachs. Due to our interference our dogs survive puppyhood but many go on to lead lives full of chronic illness and shortened lifespans. How fair is that?

    Jennifer
     
  13. smkie

    smkie pointer/labrador/terrier Staff Member

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    I believe it is the Little PRince that says "you tamed me there for you are responsible for me". NO vet care means no worm checks before hand. No help for MOm incase things go very wrong which they can and in a totally gruesome painful way. YOu put the dog in this position. IT is your responsibility to make sure she has the best odds of succeeding. A very healthy dog can have a bad birthing. This whole thread makes me ill. Yes dogs can have pups in boxes just fine. BUt WHY should they have to? I had a baby coming sideways..nothing at of place with me or the baby..she just didn't turn right. Too big a pup what then? WHy should if the birthing goes wrong should she be alone with no one to help out.

    A wild thing has no options and many lose their first litter. THis is not a wiuld dog. A cup of coffee adds greatly if a dog is exhuasted with too big a litter. IF no attendant is with the pups when they are born it is making a domesticated dog give a wild birth. THat's just wrong. IT is NOT responsible animal husbandry.

    I don't know if this breed has eye hip or other issues. IF not than great. BUt still a bitch deserves to be checked out before put in this position. I have a harder time with this then the puppies born in a wooden atmosphere even tho tell me how that makes any more difference than a concrete one that can be disinfected. DO you disinfect? WE are in a world of scarier and more scary bacterias and viruses. Parvo is an ugly way to die. It is painful and would make anyone weep to look in the eyes of a puppy as he bleeds to death from both ends. IT did happen in Yellowstone not so very long ago. IT hurt the wolf population there. Having pups in such an atmosphere is an unnecessary risk. Have you seen a litter contact parvo? WE didn't even know what it was when we were first hit. WE lost 2 lovely lab pups up from California for training. WE lost 8 of a fine breeding. All in less than 48 hours. All because of a boarder that came in with it from way side waifs. I


    have seen 40 pups at an animal warehouse that came down with it all at the same time. All put down. All would have been shipped to different places. I do not know if parvo is world wide but i imagine it is. IF not distemper certainly is and that is no good way to go either. THey don't even know if lyme is passed onto the off spring. I hope anyone that keeps dogs in this kind of risk keeps them selves in the same kind of lifestyle.
     
  14. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Why is everyone so up in arms about a bitch and pups not seeing a Vet?? Only a fool would take their bitch and/or pups to a Vet's office. Every breeder I know avoids the office at all costs unless absolutely needed. Every breeder I know also does their own puppy vacc's.

    I also know breeders that will not interfer with whelping no matter what happens. If a bitch kills her pups because of aggression........then those traits are not pasted onto the next generation and she is spayed. If she is not a good whelper, so be it and if pups are lost ...........she isn't bred again. Personally I have not taken that hard of a line but then my dogs are more my pets .........but I understand and can appreciate where it is coming from. How is that worse than the breeder who has whelped a bitch litter after litter by C section? Yes I would prefer to see that the dogs be tested for whatever genetic issues are within that breed........but what is worse? A top breeder knowningly breeding an effected dog and keeping their mouth shut??

    Personally I have gotten pure hell from other breeders because I have allowed my Vets to do C-sections too soon instead of waiting...............What is worse??

    The most sanitary place for a bitch to whelp is outside if she has a choice and that choice is clean!! (meaning not some filthy/dirty and soiled area esp close to where the dogs go, that results in septic pups which die btw).

    Do you know (not the OP) that the most dangerous and TOXIC things to newborn puppies are the household cleaners that we wipe down and clean whelping boxes with??

    Did you know that your floor cleaners and wood polishes are especially toxic to dogs and should be used with extreme care? Especially if you have small/er dogs? Gezz wonder why our dogs get cancer? Especially considering that they have to lay on it and are closer to it than we are.

    That bitch whelping outside and staying outside with her pups is not a crime. I also know many breeders that have had a bitch dig under a dog house while out in a yard/run and whelp. They don't panic........they just bring them in when they can (ever tried to get a bitch out of a den with newborn pups??) sometimes takes a few days and the pups plus momma are just fine.

    And I agree, the proof is how long the dogs live for and without health issues, especially if they are working dogs.

    JMO.
     
  15. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    As a former breeder .... I can't post !!! My comments would have me banned from Chaz !!!! Dogs aren't primitive anymore !!!
     
  16. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    This right here sums up how I feel. Primitive, old, whatever - ours dogs are domesticated, not wild. It is because we domesticated them that we are responsible for them. They are not wild and the laws of the wild - only the strongest survive - shouldn't apply, IMO. Now, only the strongest should be BRED? Yes. But survive..?


    I know lots of working breeders who did not health test or consider the fact that their dogs are out working (herding, that is, since I'm a herding breed person) the health test. I understand this in theory but given the availability of health testing and the EASE of it, I honestly don't agree with it. But I do admittedly understand the theory of "if the dog isn't healthy, the dog wouldn't be able to work, now would it?" although I actually don't believe it to hold true across all dogs and all cases.


    Honestly, I think a lot of the problem here is the superiority that is coming off - the "my dogs are aboriginal, my dogs are rustic, yours are frou-frou, yours are weak." I think part of this is due to the language barrier and, well, the other part I think may actually be a superiority complex. But we all feel pretty strongly about the things we believe in when it comes to breeding practices, so let us ALL take a deep breath...
    and remember that when all else fails, don't feed the trolls...
     
  17. ufimych

    ufimych New Member

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    I should add some details about my treatment of my dogs. Because I keep aboriginal breeds of dogs, I try to provide them more freedom then average dog owner does. It is important to see what the dog decides and what is better. Adel has two doghouses of similar size in her pen. One had carpet covered with hay and another one just carpet. She likes a thick layer of hay in winter. In the summer, two days prior to parturition, she began digging a lot, but did not make her den. Finally, she pulled out all the hay and the carpet in the doghouse, which she did not use much before. It was the mother, who made her choice. When I came to check her up, I moved all the puppies in the other doghouse with carpet on the floor. To my surprise, she immediately started moving the pups, one by one, back on the bare plywood floor. Well, mother nature knows the best. I keep and sell puppies of hunting breeds, not big toy breeds. Every puppy, if sold, goes with money back guarantee on health and genetic defects, if I did not notice some. One condition, the new owner should follow my instructions how to keep the dog. Most hunters find my conditions of keeping dog wonderful. Saluki is a hunting breed. A good mother Saluki keeps her nest and the puppies clean until they start walking and eating solid food. On the bare plywood floor it is much easier for her to keep it clean. If they need bedding, they always have the second doghouse a few inches apart and can move in. It is not new with my dogs, I had before. Mother dog does not want all that junk may people put for them, especially when weather is hot. If you keep toy breeds, you deprive your dogs of elementary choice of making their own decisions. If you experiment, you will learn more what your dogs really need. Keep them the natural way.
     
  18. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    :yikes: Are you going to birth your babies squatting behind a bush ?? I believe in nature , but when it's under our care , we have to step in !
     
  19. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    i have toy breed dogs, both are also PRIMITVE breeds, must be depriving them...

    "deprive your dogs of elementary choice of making their own decisions. If you experiment, you will learn more what your dogs really need. Keep them the natural way."

    my experimentation with them have shown they LOVE to hunt and catch squirrels and chipmonks, they lvoe to run and jump and roll in the dirt, climb trees and dig holes (big ones) they dont like to interact with strangers unless they have been formally introduced as "ok" and they dont like to be constantly petter or cooed on.
    the LOVE being outside...

    BUT...

    when they tell me when there ready to go inside by scratching at the door, they like being with me wherever that is...if thats sleeping in a box outside, theyd be right there with me...if thats sat on the couch watching a movie, they dont care as long as i save a spot for them, if i even tried to leave them outside alone, ruby has proven that she will climb a tree and push through a metal screen to get into the house to see me. they join me in the shower (of their own free will)

    but there frou frou toy breed dogs and all toy breeds are deprived to not do as nature intended...which despite them being happier doing all these things they do, i MUST be depriving them of these "WONDERFULL" natural doggy behaviours because they dont live outside away form the one person they truly WANT to be with.

    dogs are PACK animals, keeping them all penned up outside without YOU thier pack leader is NOT a good thing
    sled dogs live outdoors, on ropes in dog houses year round, but they have thier pack around them, they have the other dogs in their pack close enough (as long as there not dog agressive) to curl up with and play with...
    Dogs form hunting kennels, least where i come from are housed in groups, even when kenneld they are never alone one dog per run...

    you say in your post in "her pen" im assuming that means shes kept seperate from the other dogs in your group? (while during her first few weeks with her litter this is fine) they NEED more interaction and just oging out for a few hours run a day,
    even sighthounds, no matter how aloof still want to be NEER their person...


    the "natural way" would mentally destroy my dogs, a primitive breed known for being aloof but strongly connected to their humans...
    they sleep outside when i do...

    theres not many folks on this forum who take kindly to being told if they have toy breeds there depriving them of a good "natural" life...
    we toy breed owners get enough flack as it is from people who havent a clue about the needs of smaller breeds, weve been told that toy breeds arnt "real dogs" simply because they odnt have a classified "job" people liek to take tudes about how we have "frou frou" dogs who arnt worth spot simply because there small...
    comments like yours above just prove you have NO clue about small breeds in general and you come across as overly elitist, your dogs are better because they live outside and live a "natural life"...
    got news for you...not how life works.
     
  20. Pops2

    Pops2 New Member

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    Foxy
    i don't doubt your model is correct for CT (where unaffected urban voters tend to decide wildlife management issues) it is the opposite of most of the USA where predation pressure (though mostly only moderate) is greater. I would venture that coyote litters in the Dakotas & Alberta from 98-06 average slightly higher than the midrange norms due to the greater pressure on them as they were the highest valued coyotes in the fur trade (still are but gas prices are too high for longlining). I would further venture that during the late 70s & early 80s fur boom they were at the extreme high end due to the exceptionally high pressure on them. as i'm sure you're aware of this pressure also upsets the social dynamic resulting in wider dispersal, less defined territories and no social birth controls.

    this abstract from Benjamin Sacks (UC Davis) is most amusing because it mirrors the norm for studies in other western states like at TAMU & USU.

    "Population dynamics and life-history evolution depend heavily on fecundity, which, in the coyote (Canis latrans), can vary substantially according to environmental conditions. Although well studied in the central part of its range, little is known about coyote reproduction in the Mediterranean climates associated with Pacific-coastal North America. I used postmortem examinations of 441 coyotes collected throughout central California to investigate reproduction, including age-specific fecundity, breeding synchrony and seasonality, and relationship to nutritional condition. Reproductive parameters did not vary significantly among sampling locations. Overall, numbers of corpora lutea averaged 6.9 (range = 4-11) and litter size (based on fetuses or placental scars) averaged 6.6 (range = 1-12) among postpartum females. The number of corpora lutea increased with maternal age, and litter size also increased with age to 6 years but decreased in older females. Most (77%) adult females became pregnant and 13% of 1st-year females became pregnant. During January-March, 96% of adult males and 68% of 1st-year males had reproductive testes. Reproductive signs in both sexes occurred 3-4 weeks later in 1st-year coyotes than in adults. Parturition dates, which decreased with increasing maternal age, ranged from 9 March to 7 May, indicating that estrus occurred from early January to late March. Of 1st-year coyotes, reproductive individuals were larger during the breeding season and had higher marrow fat indexes than nonreproductive ones (both sexes). After the breeding season, 1st-year females that did not breed (become pregnant) had similar body mass to 1st-year and adult coyotes that did breed, and adult females that did not breed were larger than the others but similar to the weight of breeders during the breeding season. Thus, whether yearlings attained breeding condition apparently depended on their nutritional condition. Adult fecundity estimates were among the highest reported for coyotes. "
    on foxes i'll just give this link. the book cites the published studies by author & year.
    Wild Mammals of North America ... - Google Books

    i question how you determined that dingos are not primitive dogs. through most of their range they are seasonal breeder (the tropics of the far north being the main locus of exceptions), they don't normally bark, and exhibit difficulty in domestication. OTH the crestie barks & breeds year round like any other domestic breed (went to church w/ a lady who bred them BYB and talked to her when my older daughter thought she wanted one) and is i am told an easy handling dog. it just seems contradictory to me.

    i absolutely agree the tazi/saluki is not primitive (nor any sighthound for that matter) as they are intentionally bred to exagerate a specific trait (speed).
    i think in general what i call rustic is what you call natural. in that regard i consider most sighthounds as rustic. my caveat to that is that rusticity can be both an individual trait and/or a breed trait.
    they are surprisingly robust despite their anorexic appearance. most health issues are the result of moving away from work. coldbloods, stag & the other working longdogs rarely have trouble w/ cancer, thyroid & heart conditions that you see in racers & show/pet bred dogs (especially if they get BYBed).
     

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