My Adel gave birth to 10 puppies

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I do agree with that Renee...
But I know even an " experienced" mother can have issues and in the ops case that poor girl would be left to struggle :(
I wouldn't have it in me to not do everything possible. My inclination, depending on what the problem had been, would be to not breed that dog again, unless it was a problem with an overly large pup or one not turned properly.
 

Dekka

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Kat was a ridiculously large pup.. i still had Dekka spayed. But I honestly don't know how I could have lived with myself if I had let nature take its course...
 

smkie

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THat's my point. Most of our labs and goldens never had a problem. But then it happens just like that..a really large pup or a pup that is not passed. I truly hope the op changes his perspective on this and decides that natures way is not what it should be for a domesticated dog that is counting on him for protection. THe op profits from it, its the responsibility of any breeder to ensure that it never goes down like that.:(
 
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I should add some details about my treatment of my dogs. Because I keep aboriginal breeds of dogs, I try to provide them more freedom then average dog owner does. It is important to see what the dog decides and what is better. Adel has two doghouses of similar size in her pen. One had carpet covered with hay and another one just carpet. She likes a thick layer of hay in winter. In the summer, two days prior to parturition, she began digging a lot, but did not make her den. Finally, she pulled out all the hay and the carpet in the doghouse, which she did not use much before. It was the mother, who made her choice. When I came to check her up, I moved all the puppies in the other doghouse with carpet on the floor. To my surprise, she immediately started moving the pups, one by one, back on the bare plywood floor. Well, mother nature knows the best. I keep and sell puppies of hunting breeds, not big toy breeds. Every puppy, if sold, goes with money back guarantee on health and genetic defects, if I did not notice some. One condition, the new owner should follow my instructions how to keep the dog. Most hunters find my conditions of keeping dog wonderful. Saluki is a hunting breed. A good mother Saluki keeps her nest and the puppies clean until they start walking and eating solid food. On the bare plywood floor it is much easier for her to keep it clean. If they need bedding, they always have the second doghouse a few inches apart and can move in. It is not new with my dogs, I had before. Mother dog does not want all that junk may people put for them, especially when weather is hot. If you keep toy breeds, you deprive your dogs of elementary choice of making their own decisions. If you experiment, you will learn more what your dogs really need. Keep them the natural way.
A money back guarentee on health and genetic defects, IF I DIDN'T NOTICE SOME?...........
 

Miakoda

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Fransheska, you are exactly right. I fee the same as you. Also, what gets me about the OP, is that he downs ALL of our dogs as though they are "less" than his. There ARE other kinds of dogs in the world besides hunting dogs. It's the OP's ways and thaughts or no ways. Nothing matters to him/her unless someone happens to agree with something HE said.
Well, if his dogs were all that, he'd be breeding them and keeping the resulting pups for himself instead of trying to peddle the remaining few on chazhound.

Honestly, how good are your pups if you try to peddle them to strangers on the internet? :rolleyes:

IMO this minimalistic approach is more about saving him money thus boosting end profits than anything else. Many people who are minimalists with their animals do so for the welfare of their animals. His version puts his dogs' welfare in jeapordy.
 

Pops2

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i think i am the only person he offerred to sell a pup to. i am pretty sure he has seen my bonafides on another forum or two where we have met before, so he knows i am a working home.
 

Miakoda

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i think i am the only person he offerred to sell a pup to. i am pretty sure he has seen my bonafides on another forum or two where we have met before, so he knows i am a working home.
Nope. He openly states he has a "few still available" in a thread on this forum. That, IMO, is the open peddling of dogs that aren't obviously good enough for him to want to keep so he feels the need to get rid of them to perfect strangers who are willing to give him money.
 

Pops2

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found it in the other thread, but that birngs up another point
so are you saying anyone who breeds should keep all their pups or just the ones that aren't spoken for. remember most of the pups were spoken for before the breeding took place. perhaps some of the planned owners fell through (that is the only reason i was able to get my last two dogs), should he then keep those pups or look for new homes for them. just because he said the male & female pups were available doesn't mean he won't screen responses to ensure they are the type of home he's looking for. now i'm not saying he is or isn't just that A LOT of judgement calls are being made based on less than full knowledge of all the circumstances and are probably driven more by his statements of minimal veterinary care. JUST how it looks from where i am sitting.
 

Miakoda

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I would and will NEVER offer puppies to complete strangers especially those over the internet! You can "screen" all day long, but at the end of the day you will only hear what you want to hear and then you'll exchange money via Western Union, ship the dog off, and heaven only knows what kind of person just bought your dog.

Honestly, I would cull those pups versus putting them into the hands of just anyone and everyone.

I would really like 2 or 3 pups right now and although I've contemplated another litter for the past 2 1/2 years, I refuse to do it because I cannot take personal responsibility for so many puppies and I will not just place them with anyone. As it is, all my friends in my circle also have enough dogs, so I will just sit back and get a pup from another friend's litter instead of bringing 10+ puppies into this world and expecting other people to come to my rescue and clean up my "mess". Not gonna happen.

And the key word in your post was "most". If you cannot keep or do not have reputable places for ALL pups to go, you don't breed. Period.

No amount of money is worth the health and wellbeing of a pup I produce OR my reputation. Take the cash to some byb who doesn't give a ****, I guess.
 

DanL

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I guess if no one would offer pups to complete strangers, I wouldn't have any of my dogs. All of the people we got our dogs from were strangers. We talked to them and then visited and interviewed each other.

Who has enough friends and family that they can place every pup they have, especially if they are a breeder? How many of you breeders know every person who you place a pup with personally? How many will interview the potential owner who is a complete stranger and place the pup based on how they interview and the vibe you get from them when you meet?

I don't think finding a possible owner for a pup over the internet is out of line. Plenty of quality breeders do it. You do it the same way you would do it face to face- lots of questions, from both sides. I know people who have bought pups sight unseen from Europe, and who have sold pups to people sight unseen all over the country, all based on interviews.

We found Daisy's breeder thru recommendations from a post I made here asking who knew any good Dane breeders in the mid Atlantic region. I don't think any of the people who recommended the breeder her knew her personally, and none of them knew me, so it was a blind call and meeting that got us Daisy.

You guys are such knit pickers, I mean, really- so he wants to sell a couple pups over the internet because buyers backed out. Wouldn't you rather they be sold thru this board, where at least most of the people care enough to try and learn how to be a good dog owner?
 

smkie

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I would hope that if someone is breeding they are working their dogs, showing their dogs, trialing their dogs...doing SOMETHING to show that they are dedicated and that is exactly what i would want to look for in a breeder. I would hope that there is a long waiting list with plenty to back up in case someone chooses not to be there for whatever reason. I would NEVER sell a pup over the internet. I did give one to someone that someone knew on their recommendation. THe pup was dead 2 months later and i am still horrified i did not trust my own instincts. I sold puppies for the kennels. I talked to people for a long time to sense out how i felt. ONe couple left and my old boss asked me why. I said they live in an apt, they have white carpet. I asked them if they really wanted a bombshell of energy that was going to shed oily black hair on everything they have. I had a retired preacher that had one of a breeding that we had and his dog had passed away from old age. He wanted another and the only one was a pup i had chosen for myself. there were no more left but when i considered where he lived and where i lived and who could offer the more secure life, i sold the pup to him. YOu can't sense that over an e-mail or even on the recommendation of a friend.
 

FoxyWench

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I have no problem with a responsible breeder letting folks on a forum like this know they breed and opening themselves up to interested parties...
Advertising on the Internet is a great tool...
But in this case the op in some of the very first post on the forum states they have pups unspoken for...and if anyone wants one...

I won't consider a breeding untill I have a waiting list... Would I advertise myself as a breeder online? Sure...
Would I SELL online...no
 

Romy

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I would and will NEVER offer puppies to complete strangers especially those over the internet! You can "screen" all day long, but at the end of the day you will only hear what you want to hear and then you'll exchange money via Western Union, ship the dog off, and heaven only knows what kind of person just bought your dog.

Honestly, I would cull those pups versus putting them into the hands of just anyone and everyone.

I would really like 2 or 3 pups right now and although I've contemplated another litter for the past 2 1/2 years, I refuse to do it because I cannot take personal responsibility for so many puppies and I will not just place them with anyone. As it is, all my friends in my circle also have enough dogs, so I will just sit back and get a pup from another friend's litter instead of bringing 10+ puppies into this world and expecting other people to come to my rescue and clean up my "mess". Not gonna happen.

And the key word in your post was "most". If you cannot keep or do not have reputable places for ALL pups to go, you don't breed. Period.

No amount of money is worth the health and wellbeing of a pup I produce OR my reputation. Take the cash to some byb who doesn't give a ****, I guess.
While I admire your passion for your dogs and the personal responsibility you feel for them, I am glad that Strider's breeder didn't feel the same way about sharing her puppies with strangers. She gave me, a complete stranger, one of her puppies. He has been the biggest blessing in my life, and is adored and spoiled rotten. I suppose it could have ended badly if her gut instinct to trust me was wrong, but Dan is right. If people only let friends and family have dogs....nobody would have dogs.
 
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Fran101

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While I admire your passion for your dogs and the personal responsibility you feel for them, I am glad that Strider's breeder didn't feel the same way about sharing her puppies with strangers. She gave me, a complete stranger, one of her puppies. He has been the biggest blessing in my life, and is adored and spoiled rotten. I suppose it could have ended badly if her gut instinct to trust me was wrong, but Dan is right. If people only let friends and family have dogs....nobody would have dogs.
While I don't agree with giving dogs to total strangers. AKA: box in front of supermarket filled with puppies and a sign that says "TAKE ONE"

I do think that good breeders and those who have their puppies aren't really "strangers" no, we might not be best friends or family. but there is more than one way to get to know someone. there are phone calls, email, etc.. and you do develop trust and im very glad breeders are willing to do that. because it would be VERY hard to get a puppy from a good breeder if the only ones that could are friends/family
 
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I've been following this thread since the beginning and it's been one of the most eye opening and educational things I've read in a long time. It really made me stop, think and address how I and the majority of dog people view and treat their dogs. How much we coddle and change the environment to suit them and to make their lives easier. How dogs are continuously bred that could never survive without the luxuries (often thought of as necessities) that we provide them. And then when faced with someone that doesn't do that, that lets both the ugly and beautiful part of nature take it's course without interference (except in extreme cases) people become horrified and defensive.

And I find it kinda sad how far we've tried so hard to remove our dogs from nature and natural selection that the mere idea of it disgusts and baffles us.

I believe the majority of pet dog owners just can not adopt the mind frame that those with real working dogs have. Can't accept the how raw and real it is. And to be honest, we they shouldn't have to, we don't have working dogs nor are we required to treat our pet dog as one. But someone who does have that mindframe, who truly lets their dogs be dogs; should not be condemned for our hangups.

I don't believe it would do anything but good to try and understand and maybe even take away a little bit of their knowledge and apply it to our way of raising pet dogs. I can only see our dogs benefiting from it

I'm very glad I read this thread. It made me really consider looking into ranches for my next dog (a cattle dog) that use their dogs for herding instead of the very nice breeder with dogs that did some agility, obedience, flyball, confirmation etc.

I think that ufimych very much adores his dogs and by doing what he is doing and how he is doing it he is producing very hardy, very healthy and very capable working dogs. It may not be how I would ever go about breeding, but not because it's wrong but because I am not a strong enough nor talented enough person to do it and do it well.

I love seeing the puppies and I really hope he continues to update pictures. Saluki's where the very first breed I feel in love with and I spent many a long hour researching them.

Sorry if this was ramble, I was trying to put my thoughts together and it wasn't going well.

I also wanted to add that it did not seem like he was offering to give the pups to the first person who coughed up the money online. I never got that impression but rather that he was throwing it out there so that if their were any interested parties that there were some available yet that were not spoken for.
 

JennSLK

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I've been following this thread since the beginning and it's been one of the most eye opening and educational things I've read in a long time. It really made me stop, think and address how I and the majority of dog people view and treat their dogs. How much we coddle and change the environment to suit them and to make their lives easier. How dogs are continuously bred that could never survive without the luxuries (often thought of as necessities) that we provide them. And then when faced with someone that doesn't do that, that lets both the ugly and beautiful part of nature take it's course without interference (except in extreme cases) people become horrified and defensive.

And I find it kinda sad how far we've tried so hard to remove our dogs from nature and natural selection that the mere idea of it disgusts and baffles us.

I believe the majority of pet dog owners just can not adopt the mind frame that those with real working dogs have. Can't accept the how raw and real it is. And to be honest, we they shouldn't have to, we don't have working dogs nor are we required to treat our pet dog as one. But someone who does have that mindframe, who truly lets their dogs be dogs; should not be condemned for our hangups.

I don't believe it would do anything but good to try and understand and maybe even take away a little bit of their knowledge and apply it to our way of raising pet dogs. I can only see our dogs benefiting from it

I'm very glad I read this thread. It made me really consider looking into ranches for my next dog (a cattle dog) that use their dogs for herding instead of the very nice breeder with dogs that did some agility, obedience, flyball, confirmation etc.

I think that ufimych very much adores his dogs and by doing what he is doing and how he is doing it he is producing very hardy, very healthy and very capable working dogs. It may not be how I would ever go about breeding, but not because it's wrong but because I am not a strong enough nor talented enough person to do it and do it well.



.
We arent talking about things like beds, clothes, ect....

He would WILLINGLY let his dogs die infront of his eyes, because HE bred them and they had a complication, or they got bit by a snake. That is letting nature take it's course, yes, but in the modern age of vets why would you willingly watch your dog die? Thats what has most of us mad and upset.
 
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While I don't agree with giving dogs to total strangers. AKA: box in front of supermarket filled with puppies and a sign that says "TAKE ONE"

I do think that good breeders and those who have their puppies aren't really "strangers" no, we might not be best friends or family. but there is more than one way to get to know someone. there are phone calls, email, etc.. and you do develop trust and im very glad breeders are willing to do that. because it would be VERY hard to get a puppy from a good breeder if the only ones that could are friends/family
I agree. It's easy to say you should be able to find a puppy close to home from someone you know, but it's not that easy for everyone. My husband is in the military and occasionally we do have to move, so that would be very problematic for us. When we started looking for a show/breeding quality puppy I realized I wasn't finding what I wanted in our area, or even in our region. I also really didn't know anyone out here since I had just moved out here. When I found a breeder with dogs that I liked, she ended up being in Iowa. I was referred to her by a friend so I emailed her. We talked on the phone, email, she sent me pedigrees and health testing certificates, asked me a tons of questions. It may not be for everyone, but I wouldn't like the thought of only buying breeds people I am friends/family with own. I'd be stuck with a Lab, which wouldn't suit me at all!
 

Romy

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While I don't agree with giving dogs to total strangers. AKA: box in front of supermarket filled with puppies and a sign that says "TAKE ONE"
Oh same here! That's not what I was talking about. She put up an ad on craigslist for her service dog prospect pups, and then began corresponding via e-mail with me. We chatted for many hours on the phone and then met in person before she handed him over, but the whole thing started as strangers through the internet.
 

Fran101

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Oh same here! That's not what I was talking about. She put up an ad on craigslist for her service dog prospect pups, and then began corresponding via e-mail with me. We chatted for many hours on the phone and then met in person before she handed him over, but the whole thing started as strangers through the internet.
lol ya i figured that was more along the lines of what you meant ;)
 

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