Mutts, Mixes, Mills & Pedigrees

[Muggie'sMum]

SPL - the issue of horse slaughter is completely different - it is an actual industry and by abolishing it, you're looking at getting rid of several jobs. The end result is actually something more than ashes -- whereas kill shelters are just that. Animals die and that is the end of it. There really isn't a comparison there, IMHO.

 

[cindr]

Delisay, I enjoyed your post. I always like to hear the different opinions and thought trains of other folks when it comes to breeding animals. As someone who has been breeding animals (not always dogs) her entire life, I can say that animal breeders, regardless of the quality of animals they raise recieve some of the highest praise and harshest criticism from people who have never been in their shoes and do not understand the dynamic of what they are doing. Take inbreeding for example - many breeds and "great" bloodlines were, indeed, inbred to "guarantee" the trait that makes them SO "great". With that said, I don't condone the breeding of genetic flaws and diseases for cosmetic purposes or otherwise superficial purposes, but where do you draw the line? (I am thinking of HYPP in horses)

Am I anti-mutt? No.. I am a bit of a purebred snob, I will admit, but what bothers me far more than the intermingling of breeds is the care and thought that goes into them from the person responsible for the well being of the dogs being bred. There is a difference between having an unspayed bitch get loose and pregnant and finding homes for all of the pups vs dropping the boxfull of them off at the shelter doorstep.

Maybe it's not so much irresponsibility, but the responsibility for the actions - as someone said, animals breed based on instinct, not on romance, and more often than not, they breed as a result of an action of the owners - be it failure to spay/neuter, exposure to an animal of the opposite sex. Rather than being condescending and putting so much effort into admonishing the "backyard breeder" (Oh how I despise and loathe that term!), maybe we should be praising those who take responsibility, and step up to the plate when these "accidents" happen.

Those who are stupid, just are, unfortunately. There's nothing to be done about that. You can preach all you want at them, but if someone earnestly believes in what they are doing (the way that we who discourage irresponsible breeding, or try to! do), there is little you can do to dissuade them. You cannot educate those who believe they already are educated.

Well put and well informed.

 

[Delisay]

...I cringe at the thought of ANY breeding...there are always purebred dogs entering our shelter and there are mixed breeds as well...it breaks my heart to think of how many of them were created with good intentions ... So many shelter dogs do originate from respectable breeding programs. It is as much of a fantasy for a breeder to think that every puppy they place will get a wonderful FOREVER home...

...I have come to realize that people are going to do whatever they want to do ...I will simply do my best to make a difference in as many animal lives as I can ...I am not naive enough to think I can stop anyone from breeding so I don't even try...no one out there needs anyone's approval...

Thanks SPL. It's so great to hear from someone who's 'in the trenches' on this issue. I absolutely agree with you, and thanks for doing what you do.

Actually, thinking about all this has lead me to retrospectively realise that my great pedigree, good reputation GSD breeder - who bred my beautiful but rather anxious girl - was nothing more than a puppy miller. Great pedigrees and phenotypes; poor living conditions; mostly a profit motive. (I was too young at the time to make this judgement. It was my parents' decision.)

Even now I drive past another pedigree puppy miller regularly - always has the sign up...puppies available ...dodgy doggies . I also read ads by obviously lovely, well-intentioned, informal breeders. It takes all sorts to make the world go around...

Del.

 

[SeniorPetLover]

SPL - the issue of horse slaughter is completely different - it is an actual industry and by abolishing it, you're looking at getting rid of several jobs. The end result is actually something more than ashes -- whereas kill shelters are just that. Animals die and that is the end of it. There really isn't a comparison there, IMHO.

I'm not suggesting abolishing horse slaughter. I'm suggesting limiting the number of horses (animals) being bred. It will never happen because you are right, it is an actual industry. But animal control is a big business in BOTH the pet and horse industries...many shelters have paid positions and nearly every municipality has a paid team of animal code enforcement officers. There would be job losses if the unwanted pet population was reduced. I live on a 300 acre horse farm and I used to breed horses for a living. I've been in the industry for over 30 years. I stood 4 stallions during my heyday. You would (maybe) be surprised to see some of the mares that they wanted to breed to my stallions...poor conformation, etc. Some of the mares were nearly crippled, but they still wanted to get a foal out of them...this is not uncommon if the mare has an outstanding pedigree or a great produce record, but some of these were of questionable breeding. I realized one day that I was contributing to the number of "junk" horses in this country and I took my stallions off the market. I stopped breeding my own mares, too, and they were well bred and proven. The market just really didn't need them. There are tons of good bred horses out there selling cheap. I think that the amount of indescriminant breeding with horses in somewhat comparable to dogs. There are a lot of BYB's in the horse industry. I was unwittingly one of them...my stallions were proven, they had great pedigrees and good conformation, but the mares coming to them were not the greatest, but if you want to make a horse farm pay, you breed...how many of these foals ended up in a kill pen? I'm not against slaughter-to me the slaughter house is the equivelent of the kill shelter...both good and bad horses end up there for a variety of reasons and it is sadly a necessary outlet...I always handpicked the homes for the foals that I personally raised and I thought they would have it made, but I know that was only a false sense of security for me...some of the foals that I bred have likely ended up as an unwanted horse due to divorce or whatever other unforeseen circumstance came into play...they never contacted me to see if I would take them back even though that was in our original agreement...I agree with you that there are differences in the horse and dog industries, but there are also a lot of similarities...there are tons of both out there that need a home, yet people continually make more. Do we have a need for good, solid, well bred animals to continue bloodlines for different disciplines? Yes, but not everyone and their brother is qualified to do the breeding and not every mare or stallion (substitute dog or cat here) with a big name on it's pedigree deserves to be breeding stock. Not everything with a uterus or testicles needs to be bred, but there are many out there who think that is the only prerequisite. Is there a definitive answer on how to manage the excess population of any animal? Not that I am aware of. I am resigned to the fact that breeding is going to happen and death is going to happen...I'm also resigned to the fact that there are worse things in life than death. That is the only thing that keeps me going sometimes because I see a lot of death. My opinions on breeding have really evolved since getting involved in the the management of the excess animal population. I know that I'm preaching to the choir so I'll be stepping off the soapbox now...PS-my stallions and broodmares still remain on the farm...I made a committment to them and they will have a home for life even though they no longer have a career in reproduction...

 

[Muggie'sMum]

SPL, we have made a decision recently to no longer breed either. We stand two stallions - you're right, I'm the choir! LOL I have been in this since I was born. We, too, have geriatrics here that have given us their whole lives and we are giving them theirs now. The biggest difference I'm trying to denote between kill shelters and slaughterhouses is that once a horse is dead, it's body parts are being used for things - further industry - as opposed to a kill shelter where the animals are incinerated. Would I ever send any of mine to slaughter? No, but I understand that it's a part of the industry, unfortunate as it is.

 

[planet molosser]

I stopped breeding horses as quick as i started I did the math I was 30 now 40 and Arabians live 30-40 years I dont want to be chasing down my breedings via a granny mobile

 

[BSan]

Delisay, appreciated your posting. New to chaz. Love my golden retriever/standard poodle.....avoiding the "G" "D" word

 

[planet molosser]

Wolf soul loved you post.. said it all _I love my old passed away Mutt Snoopy but i also put down so many mutts no one wanted past puppy hood in the pound.

People often confuse their ego and emotions thye have for the love of their dog be it mutt or pet quality purebred into what a good rep of a breed is or why mutts should not be bred on purpose.

We have enough accidents to line the shelters each year.

 

[LizzieCollie]

Another designer dog thread?

I will say the same thing I say for every "doodle" thread: Yes, all our purebreds started off by mixing dogs. But not one of our purebreds were created by using only 2 breeds of dogs. Many contributed to our dogs of today, and the resulting off spring were bred to each other so that they would one day produce consistent type.

Whats wrong with designer breeding is that people breed (example) Labrador to Poodle, sell the offspring for thousands, and breed Lab to Poodle again. They are not setting a standard, they have no intention of going past the F1 cross, or outcrossing those doodle dogs to other breeds so that one day they may get recognized.

A breed must consist of more than 2 breeds and consistently produce a type to be eligible for registry. No breeder is trying to do this

 

[Delisay]

Lizzie, check out the gorgeous Mishka, third generation Pomeranian Poodle cross on this page: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/pomapoo.htm. She's a sweetheart, but I don't know who bred her.

Also note these 2-breed crosses (now considered "pedigree"):

• Bichon Frise: Poodle + Barbet Water Spaniel.
• Boston Terrier: English Bulldog + White English Terrier.
• Bull Mastiff: English Mastiff + Bulldog
• Bull Terrier: Bulldog + White English Terrier
• Clumber spaniel: Basset Hound + Alpine Spaniel.
• Field Spaniel: English Cocker Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel
• Flatcoated Retriever: Newfoundland + Labrador Retriever
• Great Dane: Mastiff + Greyhound
• Harrier: Beagle + St. Hubert hounds
• Shih Tzu: Lhasa Apso + Pekingese or Chinese Pug.
• Softcoated Wheaten Terrier: Kerry Blue Terrier + Irish Terrier
• Whippet: Terrier + Greyhound

(There are lots more.)

I think it's hard to do 2nd and 3rd gen crosses with the Poodle mixes because of the awkward inbetween stages - and because it ideally requires a 'cooperative' of breeders rather than just one - but I agree that it would be nice, if they are going to do it, to really bite the bullet and do it properly. It would seem to make sense. I strongly suspect that someone, somewhere, is doing exactly that as we speak, but I don't know who...

Del.

 

[LizzieCollie]

I highly doubt that all those breeds mentioned above were only created out of two breeds. Something else must have been added because a mix of two breeds does not qualify for a new breed registry. If that were the case Cockapoos would have long been accepted in the AKC

 

[cindr]

Well I ask this' what is a true cock a poo? The reason I am asking is this yrs ago a woman contacted me to groom her dog. I asked what breed it was she said Cock a Poo! I figured that the dog was going to be 15 to 25 lbs. Well when the dog came in it was not either breed. It was a bouvier cross, 80 to 100 lbs.

I asked her why she told me it was a cockapoo. She said that was what the people told her it was. So again how do we truly know what breed it is when it is a mix?

 

[Delisay]

I highly doubt that all those breeds mentioned above were only created out of two breeds. Something else must have been added because a mix of two breeds does not qualify for a new breed registry. If that were the case Cockapoos would have long been accepted in the AKC

If that's currently true (I don't know - I'm trusting you on it), I wonder for how long that's been the ruling, because new breeds have been developed continually since time immemorial, so many may have come in under older systems. Non-US kennel clubs may also have different systems, and all kennel clubs probably have special systems for accepting foreign-developed breeds.

Actually, here's an even better one - the Biewer Yorkie. It's considered a separate breed, but is in fact from only one breed - it's genetically just a Yorkie in a different colour! (V cute too )

Del.

 

[RD]

I don't have a problem with mutts, honestly, but what purpose are these crosses filling? I can't call them breeds because most are just F1 crosses with a cutesy name slapped on them.
So many people make up so much BS about these so-called breeds in order to make people think they're legit. They're nothing more than crosses. They are not making ANY progress towards becoming a breed, it's just a ton of F1 crosses with nearly infinite possibilities as far as traits go.

Nobody ever told me what niche the "Schnoodle" or the "Goldendoodle" is filling. What about the "Pomchi" or the "Pappihuahua"? What's the point when there are TONS of dogs in shelters that would be equally good companions?

There are so many breeds out there. If you absolutely need certain traits, why not find a purebred that has been bred for YEARS for those traits?

 

[pitbulliest]

Originally Posted by Muggie'sMum
SPL - the issue of horse slaughter is completely different - it is an actual industry and by abolishing it, you're looking at getting rid of several jobs. The end result is actually something more than ashes -- whereas kill shelters are just that. Animals die and that is the end of it. There really isn't a comparison there, IMHO.

Whoa ok..this is a completely different topic that I would strongly suggest that we avoid..I for one, am COMPLETELY against horse slaughter...end of story...this will open up a whole new can of worms..lets stick to the topic...


Back to topic: I agree with what some people have mentioned..there are enough purebreds now that have filled every working niche..we don't need to breed more...there is no purpose..and yes, times have changed..when dogs were so called "crossed" back then to produce a breed, the dog population was nowhere nearly as tragic as it is now, shelters did not exist, and people were breeding for specific jobs...

Alright..done...