Mutts, Mixes, Mills & Pedigrees

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Delisay, Oct 9, 2006.

  1. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    Hi all

    Having spent quite some time lately reading the various dog boards, I find myself disturbed by some of the rigid thinking and rude comment from certain individuals on the subject of the ancient and continued art of mixing breeds. I do understand the motivation, but the thinking seems to be quite distorted in some cases. Because Chazhound seems more balanced and polite (mostly!), I feel safest to post my thoughts about it here. (BTW, I am not breeder so have no vested interest; I have owned a beautiful pedigree GSD in the past and plan to own a beautiful either a pedigree or mixed-breed little dog some time soon...)

    To begin... two key points:

    - A "mutt", in common parlance, is usually taken to mean 'the product of multiple, random matings' - the type traditionally created by stray dogs in rubbish tips. This is substantially different from careful, intentional cross-breeding of selected animals in an attempt to produce a particular animal for a particular purpose (hunting, family pets, guidedogs, sniffers, show, etc).

    - Almost all current "pedigree" dogs began in exactly this way - intentional cross-breeding of particular animals for a particular purpose. Humans have been doing this forever, and they won't conveniently stop during our lifetimes just to appease the anxieties of few people. (Please see the list at the bottom of this post for the "mutt" background of our beloved "pedigree" pooches!)

    Many major kennel clubs understand the above two points perfectly well, and thus have a slow and careful ongoing process for officially recognising new breeds (or crosses) as they are developed. Is it really so much of a stretch for pedigree owners/breeders to understand this aswell?

    Here's a human analogy, to help illustrate the dubious thinking that's currently being bandied around in the name of 'ethics':

    If 6 (1 female and 5 male) uneducated, unemployed humans, of varied races and dodgy temperaments, get together randomly and produce 6 'pure' and 'mixed breed' children, we call this "irresponsible". There is a much higher than usual chance that some of these children will be neglected, have behavioural or intellectual problems, and/or end up swelling the ranks of foster homes...

    However, if 2 educated, employed, good-natured humans of 2 races get together and carefully raise 3 well-adjusted, healthy 'mixed-breed' children, we simply admire what a good job they've done and how unusually good-looking their well-behaved children are. How absurd it would be to say to them instead, "Well if all you wanted were mutts you should have gone to the foster home and got a few 8-12 year olds - there are loads of them. You were ripped off if you paid thousands for maternity costs and kindergarten for those... and what are a few behavioural problems anyway? It was irresponsible and selfish of you to have your own children."

    The obvious offensiveness of this kind of thinking when applied to humans starkly reveals how daft it is when applied to any other animal. The crime is not the 'race' or 'breed'; the crime is 'bad behaviour' in the form of irresponsible reproduction. I can't believe that we, as a human race, still haven't quite collectively grasped this concept yet, and keep making this same error of generalised thinking. Here are some more ideas:

    Crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in a dangerous animal.
    Non-crime = Breeding or raising Pit Bulls or any other breed in such a way as results in reliably good-natured, safe animals.

    Crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which detract from the wellbeing of the purchaser.
    Non-crime = Charging high (or low) prices for products or services which add to the wellbeing of the purchaser.

    Crime = Being one of the 5% of men who commit acts of violence (of which 98% are carried out by men).
    Non-crime = Being a man...who is one of the 95% of men who do not commit acts of violence.

    Crime = Uncaring 'puppy mill' breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs so as to get cute puppies out to the pet market as fast as possible, without concern for where they end up, or for their mental and physical health.
    Non-crime = Careful breeding of mixed-breed or pedigree dogs, so as to produce mentally and physically healthy, cute puppies for caring, discerning pet owners or another purpose.

    I'll say it again: The crime is the behaviour. Generalising is irritatingly ignorant, but most importantly it causes the point to be missed and therefore the problem to remain unsolved. If we punish the wrong thing - like 'being a man', or 'mixed race', or 'charging for a product' - we fail to solve the real problem, which is nearly always just 'bad behaviour by certain individuals'.


    And now, for the interest of the 'anti-mutt brigade', here are the mixed-breed heritages of some of our "pedigree mutts"! :) :
    (In fact, you can technically 'make your own pedigree' from the 'recipe' in some cases!)

    Affenpinscher: Various working terriers

    Airedale Terrier: Old English Brokenhaired Terrier + Otterhound + various other terrier breeds

    American Eskimo Dog: From German Spitz

    American Water Spaniel: From Irish Water Spaniel

    Australian Silky: Australian Terrier + Yorkshire Terrier-type dogs brought by convicts + later addition of Skye Terrier + Dandie Dinmont

    Beagle: Harrier + hounds of ancient England

    Bedlington terrier: Whippet + Otterhound + Dandie Dinmont

    Bernese Mountain Dog: Tibetan Mastiff + local sheepdogs

    Bichon Frise: Poodle + Barbet Water Spaniel.

    Borzoi: Arabian Greyhound/Gazelle Hound + Longhaired Russian Sheepdog OR Asian greyhounds + Russian indigenous dogs

    Boston Terrier: English Bulldog + White English Terrier.

    Boxer: Danziger + Brabanter Bullenbeisser (in turn from Mastiffs) + other Bavarian breeds.

    Bull Mastiff: English Mastiff + Bulldog

    Bull Terrier: Bulldog + White English Terrier

    Chow Chow: Spitz descent.

    Clumber spaniel: Basset Hound + Alpine Spaniel.

    Doberman: Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier.
    (Bred by Herr Louis Dobermann, a tax collector, to protect himself on his rounds. My, things haven't changed much...Doberlawyers.)

    Field Spaniel: English Cocker Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel

    Flatcoated Retriever: Newfoundland + Labrador Retriever

    German Shorthaired Pointer: Bloodhound + Spanish Pointer or English Foxhound

    Golden Retriever: Yellow Retriever or Flat-coated Retriever + Tweed Water Spaniel + later addition of Newfoundland

    Great Dane: Mastiff + Greyhound

    Great Pyrenees: Italian Maremma + Slovakian Kuvac + Hungarian Kuvasz + Turkish Karabash

    Harrier: Beagle + St. Hubert hounds

    Havanese: Water Spaniel + Poodle + Portuguese Water Dog

    Irish Setter: Old Spanish Pointer + Setting spaniels + early Scottish setters

    Leonberger: Newfoundland + St. Bernard + Great Pyrenees.

    Miniature schnauzer: Giant and Standard Schnauzers + Affenpinscher + Miniature Pinscher

    Old English Sheepdog: Briard + Bearded Collie + Russian Owtchar

    Olde English Bulldogge: English Bulldog + American Bulldog + Bull Mastiff + American Pit Bull Terrier

    Papillon: From Spanish Dwarf Spaniel +...

    Pointer: Foxhound + Greyhound + Bloodhound.

    Pomeranian: From a north German sheepdog. (When introduced to the UK it was large and white, up to 13 kg!)

    Pug: From Mastiffs.

    Rhodesian Ridgeback: Hottentot Ridged Dog + Bloodhound + Greyhound.

    Rottweiler: Various local shepherds’ dogs + a Mastiff-like dog.

    Rough Collie: Various Scottish and Irish herding and farm dogs + later addition of Russian Borzoi

    Saint Bernard: From Molossian Mastiff

    Shetland Sheepdog: Rough Collies + various dogs of Scottish Shetland Islands

    Shih Tzu: Lhasa Apso + Pekingese or Chinese Pug.

    Smooth Fox Terrier: Smooth Coated Black & Tan Terrier + Bull Terrier + Greyhound + Beagle

    Softcoated Wheaten Terrier: Kerry Blue Terrier + Irish Terrier

    Standard schnauzer: Beaver dog + Rough Coated Ratting dog or Shepherd

    Whippet: Terrier + Greyhound

    Yorkshire Terrier: English Black & Tan + Skye Terrier + Maltese.

    [etc!!]



    (I am now going to stand behind my Rottweiler + English Greyhound + German Pinscher + Weimaraner + Manchester Terrier and see what happens... ;) )

    Delisay
     
  2. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    It's been pointed out time and time again, but the idea keeps getting missed. We are not anti-mutt. Far from it. The only "anti-mutt" aspect of this board is the intentional and irresponsible breeding for profit that has run rampent in the last few years. There is nothing about creating an actual new breed, just more money for the breeders/pet shops/mills, etc.

    New breeds are created with a final intent and purpose in mind, and do not simply mean the same F1 to F1 breeding that encompasses most "new breeds" breeding program. Even those few breeds you posted that were created out of two breeds like the Wheaten were part of a careful program that had a set list of attributes in mind and only those dogs that met those attributes were bred from to create the next generation. This is very, very rarely done these days.

    I can see how some people, especially those who have only been here for a short time, could get the impression that we as a board are "anti-mutt" but again, it's really "anti-idiot" that we are.
     
  3. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Agree !!! Add to that list my beloved Golden Retriever breed !! What a mix that was !!! All of the breeds I love !
     
  4. wolfsoul

    wolfsoul I Love My Belgian

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    Until there aren't millions of dogs dying in shelters every year -- breeding should only occur to better a breed, not to create more. Yes, all purebreds were created from mutts -- however, the majority of these breeds were created in a different time and age -- when animal shelters didn't exist, and there were niches to be filled in a working dog world. When people bred mixes to breed true.

    You can't compare children to puppies. You can't just go to your local child shelter, look inside the kennels of dozens of children on death row, and say "I'll take that one." Humans were not bred for specific purposes, and so we do not have to breed for "working ability," though I do find it irresponsible to have children knowing you have genetic health issues.

    I love mutts, I've had mutts. I most certainly am not anti-mutt. I am anti-mutt-breeding. There are enough breeds to fill every niche. Why create more? Now, in my opinion, the Alaskan husky is an exception to the rule, as there is a need for a faster sled dog. I wouldn't be against any other breeds being created to fill specific roles that other breeds couldn't fullfill as well. But what need do we have for cockapoos, chugs, pooapoms, yorkipoos, maltepoos, doodleman pinschers, German shepoodles, cockaliers, etc?
     
  5. Delisay

    Delisay New Member

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    Zoom, "anti-idiot" is a good and neat summary! ;) (BTW, in case you didn't notice at the beginning, I made the point of saying that Chazhound is more balanced and hence posting here rather than daring to 'set paw' on the various 'bully boards'!)

    D.
     
  6. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Sorry, I think I skimmed past that part and only read the "rude" part...my bad. :) It's late and I'm indulging in some "whine".
     
  7. Chul3l3ies1126

    Chul3l3ies1126 New Member

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    ehh, i love all dogs, but i say that mutts overcome all... sorry guys... thats all i will say... kool delisay
     
  8. cindr

    cindr Guest

    revised
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2006
  9. cindr

    cindr Guest

    As a avid dog lover breeder and trainer; I can state to you that your comments are unjust, simple minded and uncalled for. If you had taken the time to truly read all and any of these posts the members here are concerned for the betterment of the dog.

    Where can you justify your statements as too the human race to the dog race? We all know that humans have the ability to make a decision as to whom they wish to be with. Where as a dog comes into season thus accepts the male due to the natural animal instinct. Not out of the love the dog has for the other dog as a human should or would for their partners.

    The members here are very well versed in the subjects as to how a dog originated from. Now it is again up to the human to secure that they are not abused for financial gain.

    There are a few differances as to the subjects at hand but can be found very simular:

    Humans::::::::::

    1) Ethical and responsible; All races not just non purebreds/ Love adore their children, secure their health and welfare. Secure their up bringing with truth and happiness

    2) Irresponsible humans; Could care less what happens to the child mentally and or physically as well generally has children to line their back pockets with the monthly welfair check

    Dogs breeders:

    1) Ethical breeder secures the health, temp and welfair of the dogs that they wish to breed pure or unpure. secures and maintanes a proper for ever home for the dogs. They are profectionists in their own rights.

    2) Irresponsible breeder: Could give a dame how many times the bitch is bred, by who and or what. Represents them as something that they are not. Why FINANCIAL GAIN. The dog is bred each and every heat Cycle with no given chance to rest and or recoop. They use the dog to line their back pockets with $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. They give a RATS ASS WHAT HAPPENS TO THE DOGS AS LONG AS THEY HAVE THE MONEY TO GRACE THEIR DAILY DRUG HABIT AND OR GET THIS PAY THEIR BILLS.
    SO NO WE ARE NOT ANTI PUREBRED WE ARE ANTI ASS HOLE AND ANTI WING NUT. If the main purpose for some one to own a dog is to get rich then they need to get a life.

    we are happy that you have your best freind and that is a given. But remember it is all fair in love and war. So yeah I really beleive you should get your facts straight before you place the statements you have!!!!:popcorn:
     
  10. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    dbl post
     
  11. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    Here we go.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Not trying to pick but Cindr I hope that you noticed what I bolded of hers before you wrote that part that I quoted of you...;) :D



     
  12. cindr

    cindr Guest

    Yes I was a bit harsh, I do appoligise!
     
  13. cindr

    cindr Guest

    Hey Delisay: I am taking this time to appoligise to you and any one else on this forum. I have an attitude when It comes to some situations that you spoke of in your origanal post. I became grafic and alouf. Actually nasty. I hope that you can understand that I really did not mean to attack you and or any one else out here. I just have seen and heard to much and it really bothers me when things are not done to contex. My personal problem and personal issue where as I should learn to control my self. I again appoligise:(
     
  14. otch1

    otch1 New Member

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    Hello Delisay... you put a lot of time and thought into your post and you're right. I believe what I've seen most in chazhound threads though, is the genuine concern for the future of some of these "purebreeds" and what's to come in the "designer breed" industry. Both very different from the support everyone gives when discussing adopting a rescue, mixed breeds/mutts, saving a puppymill pup, ect. (Which, as you've read, most members are "for") Unfortunately, over the years we've bred many genetic disorders, cancers, skin, bone and behavioral disorders/diseases, into our purebreeds. As it's happening in the "best of the best" line of dogs, with responsible, educated breeders... one can only wonder what the uneducated, breeder mixing these breeds will produce. Say... the breeder who aquires a poodle whose not been checked for very common opthalmic disorders, bred to a lab whose not been tested for common bone-joint disease. The general public doesn't know any better and would often be wiser adopting a mixed breed from the shelter, verses paying $1500.00 for one of these "designer breeds". Next, the arguement of... why purposely breed mixed breeds? Generally hard to sell, so they're given away. The shelters are full of unwanted dogs, euthanized by the wheelbarrow-full monthly, in some cities. I said "sell", verses give away, because I find someone purchasing a puppy after having made that investment, is more likely to protect that investment. More often willing to incur any nessecary medical expenses, than the owner of the free pound puppy, who can simply return it or the litter of puppies it produced. Hence, the shelters being full of strays, returned or abandoned mixed breeds. They are just as valuable an animal as the next, but as crude as it sounds, they're more "disposable" in our society, because of a lesser monetary value. There are too many of them as it is. So, as wreckless, unnnesecary breedings continue or are even promoted, it will be the mixed breed/mutt dog that suffers. As for the human referance... if you have two individuals carrying a gene that causes a high mortality rate in an offspring or a 10 year life expectancy, at best, with a very poor quality of life for those 10 years... would you purposely produce that child anyway, knowing your odds? Most of us wouldn't, but in our dogs, yes... we breed them anyway knowing the odds of genetic disorder, temperament problems, or the unlikely adoptability ratio. It's an unfortunate fact. Good thing most of the chazhound family, no matter how occassionally misguided, edgy or even pissed off they sometimes become with each other, they all seem to have a sincere love for dogs. On that cheery note, lol, have a nice evening.
     
  15. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

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    The thing is people didn't mix Terrier A with Terrier B because "I'll bet the puppies would be SO CUTE!" They mixed them because they thought their offspring, Terrier C, would be even better at killing rats than A & B.

    Now, if someone has a farm and selectively breeds their mixed-breed herding dogs in order to maintain herding instincts and breed a superior herding dog, I'm fine with that.

    If someone is breeding "Alaskan huskies", which are basically a mix of any dog the mushers think would make a good sled dog, for the purpose of getting a superior sled dog, I'm fine with that.

    If someone breeding a Westie and a Shih Tzu because "the puppies will be so cute", that's stupid. There are thousands of cute dogs dying in animal shelters.

    If someone is breeding Mutt A and Mutt B to do agility, advanced obedience, or another dog sport that does not require SPECIFIC instincts (aside from general trainability and intelligence), that's stupid. Again--thousands of dogs who could do great in agility and obedience dying in shelters.

    If someone is breeding a new "crossbreed" to fulfill a purpose for which ideal purebreds already exist, that's stupid. Don't go out and breed a new kind of hunting dog, just go get a field English setter or a field lab. Or adopt a mixed breed with hunting instincts. What's going to happen to all those generations of puppies who "don't work out" as you breed towards your "perfect" dog?

    Most people have dogs primarily as pets these days. They may do some hunting, some agility, some tracking, but they aren't going to starve to death if their bloodhound can't scent out a deer. Most people primarily need companion dogs. And almost any dog can fulfill that role. No need to try to breed what already exists.

    Mutts are great! I love mutts! People should go to the shelter and adopt one, like I did.
     
  16. Muggie'sMum

    Muggie'sMum Mistress Wigglebutt

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    Delisay, I enjoyed your post. I always like to hear the different opinions and thought trains of other folks when it comes to breeding animals. As someone who has been breeding animals (not always dogs) her entire life, I can say that animal breeders, regardless of the quality of animals they raise recieve some of the highest praise and harshest criticism from people who have never been in their shoes and do not understand the dynamic of what they are doing. Take inbreeding for example - many breeds and "great" bloodlines were, indeed, inbred to "guarantee" the trait that makes them SO "great". With that said, I don't condone the breeding of genetic flaws and diseases for cosmetic purposes or otherwise superficial purposes, but where do you draw the line? (I am thinking of HYPP in horses)

    Am I anti-mutt? No.. I am a bit of a purebred snob, I will admit, but what bothers me far more than the intermingling of breeds is the care and thought that goes into them from the person responsible for the well being of the dogs being bred. There is a difference between having an unspayed bitch get loose and pregnant and finding homes for all of the pups vs dropping the boxfull of them off at the shelter doorstep.

    Maybe it's not so much irresponsibility, but the responsibility for the actions - as someone said, animals breed based on instinct, not on romance, and more often than not, they breed as a result of an action of the owners - be it failure to spay/neuter, exposure to an animal of the opposite sex. Rather than being condescending and putting so much effort into admonishing the "backyard breeder" (Oh how I despise and loathe that term!), maybe we should be praising those who take responsibility, and step up to the plate when these "accidents" happen.

    Those who are stupid, just are, unfortunately. There's nothing to be done about that. You can preach all you want at them, but if someone earnestly believes in what they are doing (the way that we who discourage irresponsible breeding, or try to! do), there is little you can do to dissuade them. You cannot educate those who believe they already are educated.
     
  17. Gempress

    Gempress Walks into Mordor

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    I don't really like that statement. Although it is true, it seems to be the trademark justification excuse of 99% of designer dog puppy millers I have encountered. It's usually voiced in the form of:

    "But all our modern dog breeds come from mutts! There's nothing wrong with the creation of a new breed. In a few years, my breed will be recognized by (insert registry of choice)."

    There is a BIG difference between creating a new breed and just breeding mixes. For example, take the doberman pinscher. The creator of that dog had a specific purpose in mind. He knew exactly what kind of dog he wanted. He had a mental picture of how this dog should look, act, and what its physical abilities should be. I'm sure that of the initial puppies he produced, few of them met his standard. The non-ideal puppies were not recycled into his breeding program. And his vision took foresight, especially with so many breeds in the mix. It took planned breedings over many dog generations to accomplish.

    Compare that with the loveable cockerpoo, one of the classic designer dogs. What does a cockerpoo look like? How tall is it? It the coat curly like a poodle, or long and wavy like a cocker? What colors does it come in? Conformationwise, how should the head and body look? How does it behave? Usually, these questions can sadly not be answered. You can have five cockerpoos, and they will all look different. There is no ultimate goal that the breeders are striving for. They just mix two dogs and call it a cockerpoo. And that's why they haven't been accepted into reputable registries yet.

    I'm not against creating a new breed, I'm against breeding mixes. If someone has a specific breeding program and is taking care with it, I have no problem with it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  18. Ashlea

    Ashlea New Member

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    We have enough pure breds, they fill every niche. We don't need any more. That is why no more should be "created".
     
  19. stevinski

    stevinski Int CH - $uperBitch

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    OMG that is exactly what i was going to say :D, this is the defense used by puppymillers

    and they are INCORRECT

    cross breeds (mutts) are TWO breeds, bred for MONEY

    Purebreds are LOADS (not just two) breeds all put together for one purpose, and to try and create the perfect dog for what they are used for, they are perfected over decades using different breeds from all across the world

    and again i love mutts but cross breeding for money i do not love, but as long as its for a GOOD reason, i dont care
     
  20. SeniorPetLover

    SeniorPetLover Rescue Ranger

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    This is the big reason why I cringe at the thought of ANY breeding...there are always purebred dogs entering our shelter and there are mixed breeds as well...it breaks my heart to think of how many of them were created with good intentions and they end up there...many just waiting to die...I know that it is not realistic to think that people will stop breeding...even indescriminant breeding...but, in a perfect world, supply would equal demand. So many shelter dogs do originate from respectable breeding programs. It is as much of a fantasy for a breeder to think that every puppy they place will get a wonderful FOREVER home as it is for me to dream that we can find a home for all of the "accidental" breedings...I do believe that everyone has the individual right to do as they will, so I cannot stop people from breeding...not just dogs, but cats and even horses...it is a matter of economy in many instances...there is so much controversey over horse slaughter right now...well, the unwanted ones have to go somewhere...I guess working in animal rescue has opened my eyes. So many people live in a bubble....they never realize how many lives are lost in shelters every day...they don't think about the quality of the lives of the ones lucky enough to end up in a no-killl, sitting in the equivelent of a prison cell waiting for someone to pick them...waiting for sometimes months on end...they have not looked into the eyes of a dog as he gets his lethal injection and apologized to him for all of the sins that man has committed against him...I have come to realize that people are going to do whatever they want to do and they will find any way they can to justify it...I will simply do my best to make a difference in as many animal lives as I can, but the saying on the coffee mug...God grant me the serenity...certainly does apply...I am not naive enough to think I can stop anyone from breeding so I don't even try...no one out there needs anyone's approval, so I wonder why this topic always ends up under debate? I agree to disagree and go on with my business. Sadly, there is plenty of business for me to go onto...
     

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