Minding when distracted

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
Sounds like a terrific day...lots of successes. One word of warning: Don't call her to come with your cue word just yet. She's not reliable enough and you'll ruin her recall. While you're reading the links and learning one good way to teach the recall....in the meantime when you need her to come, try enticing her, running the other way or simply, calmly go to her. Don't risk "poisoning" the cue by missing the association. She needs much more practice. Only use the cue word when she's already coming to you and you've already gotten your hand on her collar. And reinforce with a high value reward. I hope you take the time to read those links. The recall one is very good. They're all very good.

The only risk with dog parks is that you probably don't know every dog and she could easily come across one that gives her trouble or that she doesn't get on with. It's really important to avoid any risk of a bad experience with other dogs at her age. That's why I prefer a more controlled situation where you can be relatively sure about which dogs she's going to interact with. But maybe you do know the dogs if they're regulars.

I like this trainer's sentiments. I agree. No training is worth making the dog or owner miserable. It should all be associated with a pleasant time so the dog is always willing and eager to work and try new things.

That is great that you're teaching her that her calm behavior is what causes her to receive the fun. Keep up the good work!
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
I plan to read those links tommorrow. I'm sure I'll have some questions about it.

I agree too on these dog parks. Dallas has a main dog park it's large and everybody goes there. That's not where Peyton goes. This is a small but upscale dog park that the majority of dogs that go there are regulars. I have been told that they watch things closely there and if a dog is out of control, they are asked not to return. It's stuck behind a residential area and hard to find unless you have a GPS. :) The most dogs I have seen at one time is about 15 and that was on a Sunday afternoon. It's no sure thing that something won't break out, but it lessens the chances I think. Most owners seem to know all the other dogs names and each other reasonably well. It's less than 15 minutes from my house which is huge plus. I hear you and it's a concern of mine as well.

Fact is, she's too rough to play with the dogs her own size and too small to play with the large dogs. I have some concerns as there is always some grumpy dogs out there which puts her into submissive mode. I saw it a couple of times today. I don't like to see her like that and I'm not sure if that will do any long term damage to her mental health. It's not a constant thing at all out there, but it does happen and more that I would like.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
Well, the grumpy dogs are telling her to simmer down I think. And her submissive, hunkering down is not necessarily her freaking out with undue fear. It can also just mean that she's saying, "Okay...I take your hint. Got it." But that is probably something only you can tell since you know your dog. If she gets right back up again after that little signal and bounces back to playing, I wouldn't worry too much. But you're right...it probably isn't great if it's happening one time after the next. On the other hand, she's probably learning a good deal from those dogs...to not push her luck and be so intrusive. My feeling is that it is a balancing act. If she gets beat up and it's more than just a quick communication, and then it's over, that is what I'd want to avoid. Watch her expression...if she bounces right back and gets back to romping after her little submissive gesture, that is good. That would tell me that she's learning something about being less "rude" and how to tell the other dog that she "gets the message." And that it's still enjoyable because she can still play and have fun. But since she's a puppy, she probably forgets those little lessons and gets carried away again. But eventually......she'll get onto it.

My dogs play and they're always flopping down on their sides to submit to the rowdier one. Then they switch places. They don't look very submissive though, but will make subtle positions and stuff that tells me that they're "role" playing. "Okay, now it's my turn to be the cowboy." LOL. They play doctor too and take turns being the doctor.:rofl1:
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
I learned more about this trainer that is in question. The trainer I spoke with yesterday knew her. She told me that the popping trainer had been doing it longer than she had and and was regarded as one of the best competitor trainers around. I think I mentioned the popping trainer had a very impressive trophy case and one part of her studio was lined with ribbons. I have no way to judge how successful she is, but it looked like she had some success somewhere along the way and this seems to be backed up from a comment from one of her competitors. She said this also, that she didn't really get along very well with this trainer because the popping trainer was not flexible in her training methods. In other words, it was one way, her way and it wasn't open to discussion. When Peyton and I go back next week, I'll respect this trainer for her success, but I won't pop my dog. If this trainer has an issue with that, Peyton and I will walk out the door.

We also talked about the class I call the Prong collar class. This trainer I spoke with yesterday takes her dogs there for proofing. (whatever that means). She said that the Prong collar class was old school and was designed for more out of control dogs where they fight force with force. She didn't think my Aussie puppy was a good match for that class and of course I agree. My sense it that is was like the Army boot Camp and all owners became a "screaming in the face Sargent". Another use is high level competition when failure is not an option was my understanding. She also said the training was geared around larger tougher breeds like GSD and Labs and many of the shelter dogs go there because they have real issues like aggresssion. She said the methods of training there were based out of the 1960's.

First off, I don't have a large out of control dog that cannot learn or has ingrained behavior past the point of reasonable recourse and second, I'm not into all that hatefulness and perfection to the point where the dogs looses it's personality.

Peyton won't be going there either, she's an ultra sweet/ultra dog/people friendly puppy, not a dog/people killing adult nor do I plan to make her into a competitive obedience dog. I want Peyton to be herself but with social skills. Everyone loves to meet Peyton but would love her even more if she was a bit more polite and in control of herself.

Here's how Peyton meets people. When they approach, or she approach them, she will sit. They reach down and pet her. When they stop, she paws, then when they pet her again she jumps for even more attention. She's got the first part right, the second and third parts needs some work. In my mind, it's all about self control and reconditioning her behavior. She has never growled at anyone and is as sweet with adults as she is with very small children. I really don't think this puppy has been abused. I do think this dog has been neglected both in training and affection. Both of those things will change in a big way with me.

I work on trust all the time. I hold her feet, play with her ears, rub her tail and of course that belly. I clean her eyes out every few hours if she needs it or not. I never force her to accept, she can pull away at anytime. This is all going well and she trusts me now. I think she knows I'm not going to hurt her and I think she is settling in to her new home very nicely. She has plenty of peanut buttered chew toys and ragedity things to play with. We snuggle at night in bed and she does not sleep in her crate anymore. She does not pee or poop in the house much now and if she does, it's my fault for not taking her out. She is rarely reprimanded because she doesn't really do much wrong that I would not expect for a puppy. She gaining some weight, she has become accustomed to her Innova Puppy/Pumpkin, her eyes are clear, coat is shiny and soft and the groomer did an excellent job of trimming her up. She still mouths some, but this has been reduced now by 90%. She is a puppy. She loves the healthy treats I make for her and picks mine over any hotdog if she has her choice.

She has some weird little things she does, like puts her Tennis ball in her water bowl THEN brings it to me. She plays in her water bowl in the kitchen sometimes and sometimes overturns her food bowl to check underneath after her bowl is licked clean. She loves to roll in the wet grass and seems to enjoy getting her feet muddy but I can deal with all this for the payoff of such a great dog. She is an Aussie after all and would not have her any other way.

She's a joy to train in the house. She learns so quick, it's fun to train her and see her mind working. I have received more compliments on her in the last 3 weeks than I have in all 8 years of my Heeler. The comments are generally the same, "Wow, what a beautiful dog". She's beautiful on the outside and also the inside as I've come to know her, it's little wonder I say daily "Wow...what a great dog".

She deserves my best and most patient efforts and she will receive it. I just to to learn and/or get her into the right training environment with the proper guidance and I have no doubt that Peyton will do the rest.

I'll read the ZEN link after we take our walk in the woods this morning. Fun before training for both of us is the order of the day.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
Yup...the popping trainer is stuck back in the olden days. She, like many has lost sight of the point of having dogs and is so hung up on winning ribbons and trophies that her priorities IMO are skewed and not about how dogs and people were meant to be. Besides that, there are loads of fantastically trained show winners who are trained without that rough treatment...that are trained with positive reinforcement type methods. In fact, I think you can get much better precision using a clicker or those concepts than any kind of force based training.

I think you are really on the right track. That trust you speak of is what it's all about. People who have dogs that growl or snap when they try to do some minor procedure on them are in most cases dogs that don't have explicit trust. Dogs trained with a lot of punishment don't learn as well, IMO. Trust gets a dog past a lot of indecision or holding back on things. They're right there with you all the time. Dogs that receive pain or fear from their owners have all that muddying things up when being schooled. So, I think you're doing a super job. You're a natural!

That jumping up on people is easy to fix. You just need to ask them to please turn away and ignore Peyton the second she jumps up. You can also watch her and intercept BEFORE she jumps (if you can catch it in time) and remind her to sit. But you don't want her to get too dependent on your telling her every time. If she jumps and nothing good comes of it, but the second she sits, she gets affection, it won't take long (if she receives absolute consistency from everyone who interacts with her) for her to figure out the "best" way to get what she wants. People can be difficult. They say, "Oh it's okay." Well, you have to tell them that you'd love it if they'd help you train her. If she jumps, turn right around with your back to her and when she sits, squat down and love her up.

She sounds like a sweet dog. I think it sounds like you'll go a long way to help her develop into a great, well behaved and happy adult companion with lots of vim and vigor and chalk full of personality.

You're right to stay away from that drill seargant of a trainer. I bet there are a lot of toned down ghosts of dogs out there winning ribbons and trophies.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
She's such an excited pup in the woods, she wore me out. That walking in the woods is the hardest one for me. I would rather try and get her calm and into the dog park than this woods walk. Way too many smells, sights and sounds. I'm not going to do that anymore at least for a while, there is no way she can focus right now and trying to get her to focus is setting her up to fail. A one hour walk in the woods with her and I feel like I have run the Boston Marathon. It's 10 am here, and I need a nap. :)

I think I'll work on the Zen thing today and see what progress I can make there. If I can understand it that is. I wish there was a Youtube video on this.

We met two more people on the woods path and they said they were getting Aussies after seeing her. Somehow she's turning into some kind of Aussie breed ambassador. I need to figure out a way to make money on this to pay for her stuff. She's spayed so nooooo, and that's not an option I would consider anyway. I have my hands full and then some with ONE Aussie. LOL

Yea, you know Carrie, that was my uneducated sense too. Somehow winning a ribbon is the most important thing for some of these people. Winning makes the owners feel good at the sacrifice of the dog. I'm so new to all this, I can't make a judgment call one way or another, but it strikes me as using a living, thinking, feeling, organism for their own gratification. It struck me as not a hobby but a life and success would be had at all costs.

Frankly, I would hate to think that my proudest achievement in life is how well behaved my dog is based on someones else's standards. I won't pass judgment on them, but if that's the case, my goals are not inline with theirs. Hey, if Peyton could win a ribbon and have fun, great, if not just keep your old ribbon. :) We don't need no stinkin' ribbons do we pup? {{Peyton nods no}}

The submission thing does concern me, but she jumps right up and goes again. I really don't like to see her this way and think I'll try and find owners that we can take our dogs at the same time to assure they have play buddies. I'm not sure why the grumpy ones are out there if they don't like to play anyway but that's out of my control in a public dog park.

Off to Zen...and watch the Dallas Cowboys.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
Well, we tried the Zen game. I think she thought it was pretty amateurish. :)

She already knows "leave it". I can put a treat in front of her nose on the ground and she she won't go for it for...well I don't really know how long she would "leave it", because I click/release her at two minutes by my watch but I think she would hold it for much longer.

She's pretty good at this already, just now, I laid a treat on the floor asked her to leave it then I walked into the other room, she followed me and she walked right by the treat. Then I walked back into the room and right by the treat with her following me and she left it alone until I released her to get it. I think she understands "leave it".

I taught her "wait" in 10 minutes two weeks ago, so "leave it" today was the same thing to her I think. We practice "wait" every time we go out the door and she does it usually without fail. Both "wait" and "leave it " are one cue commands for her. I think we need a level 7 of Zen :)
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
I'm starting to think that it's not that she does not know what I want her to do, it's simply that she wants to do what she wants and regardless of the repercussions.

She must know by now, I'm a softy and even if she breaks my command, I won't correct her harshly enough to outweigh the benefits of what she wants. How I "will" her into the right behavior seems to be my challenge here. Treats won't do it, praise won't do it either it seems. I'm starting to think she's using my attempts at being positive against me. :) She knows I'm a pushover.

The only thing I know to do now it "insist" on good behavior or she does not get what she wants. It's the long way around and not 100% positive in my mind but I'm running out of options here. She CAN control herself and knows I don't want her to pull, but doesn't see the need to listen to me.

This pup sits, waits, downs, stays, heals, catches, gets, fetches, comes, looks at me and now leaves it and all on one cue commands. She jumps to a target, and gets off furniture on one cue. I taught her to shake by the command "Say Hello". I'm sure there are more things she does and everything I have tried to teach her, she has learn in minutes not hours or days.

This is not a dumb pup that's incapable of learning and if I was such an inept dog communicator she would not know ANY of this. Fact is she knows ALL of this... so now how do I get her under control?
 

Maxy24

Active Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
8,070
Likes
2
Points
38
Age
32
Location
Massachusetts
The best way to stay positive but not be a pushover is to prevent her (using barriers (including your body) and leashes) from getting her way when she does not respond to you and make listening to you the greatest thing ever. That means if she want to pull you somewhere, don't let her, stop or walk in the other direction. When she does do what you'd like either let her have what she wants or do something AWESOME, what that is depends on your dog and the situation.

positive training does take quite a bit of persistence sot that the dog does learn that no matter how many times I try and do what I want it's not going to work while learning at the same time every time i do what he wants it's AWESOME for me.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
Thanks Maxy. I just got off the phone with yet another trainer. I actually like this one and we're meeting on Friday with her class starting on Saturday. She said the exact same thing, if she acts up, go home or the opposite direction and or block. She also said to to go Petsmart/Petco everyday if possible. If Peyton goes everyday, the newest will wear off. She said to go to the ones that have doggy daycare, like the one with the glass. We seemed to really be on the same page.

I really like this trainer, the most extreme collar she suggests is the gentle leader. She's a positive clicker heavy reward trainer plus she's close to my house. She was a referral from someone here on this board and teaches at Petsmart. This may be some real in person help.

Peyton and I went to Starbucks today and she did really well. She got bored and wanted to play tug of war with her leash at the end but she's sitting to meet people pretty well. I got her a new leather leash and she's wanting to chew on it. "Drop it" didn't work at Starbucks and I didn't have my treats (bad idea) so I just let her go buck wild and moved along and she dropped it. This leash chewing is something new.

This is a puppy that gets bored easily and needs more mental games at home and when we are out. I need doggy puzzles.
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
She CAN control herself and knows I don't want her to pull, but doesn't see the need to listen to me.

A couple of concepts to keep in mind:

"pushover" and "pos. R" aren't synonomous.

It isn't about whether she "knows" something or not. "Knows" is irrelevant. (hard concept to grasp, I know) To know...to know what YOU want her to do, to know a skill and refuse to do it out of "stubborness" is not what's going on. No, you're right she doesn't see a need to listen to you. She's an animal. Subborness infers that the subject is thinking about what YOU want, what might be in your mind, knows and is blatantly refusing...an immoral thing to do, right? Dogs don't think like that. That's way too complex. Scientists don't think dogs even have a sense of self (there are some tests that are thought to be pre requisits to having a sense of self) so to be cognitive of what could be going round in your mind, they'd have to be aware and logically work out that since they have something going round in their mind, the other guy must also feel and think like they do. Dogs may have some rudimentary form of empathy, but the complex nature of our level of empathy with all the thought process that go with it are most likely way beyond a dog's comprehension.

All that washes right over them. It's much more simple. Dogs do what motivates them the most. Period. If it helps them to survive or meets basic requirements of receiving a primary reinforcer, something that is in line with or represents survival, they'll do it. It goes no further.

People commonly make this mistake: The dog gives some correct responses, maybe even quite a few...seems to "know" the "right" thing to do. But then the dog does not give a correct response and they say similar things to what you're saying, "He knows. He's being stubborn, is blowing me off or is not listening or my favorite one of Cesar Milan's, he's being dominant and trying to be the alpha of your pack."

There are many variables that go into a dog's mastering of a skill. He may not have even done the behavior correctly above coincidence those times before. He may have been in the guessing stage. Until the dog has had a history of ample reinforcement and practice, he will not be reliable on a skill. My dog pulled for a long time, was significantly older than yours before he mastered that skill.

If there is a chance that something better might be happening in her environment, she is going to be apt to focus on other things besides what you think she knows and should be complying with. It takes PRACTICE....a significant HISTORY of reinforcement for a particular behavior for that behavior to become reliable. She is very young still and you haven't been doing this for long at all. Along with this practice, it requires prevention of engaging in behavior you don't want. The more she practices the unwanted, fun behavior, the more likely she will repeat that unwanted, fun behavior. You have to find what does motivate her and/or intercept BEFORE she "gets away from you." You need to set up the environment, what's going on around her so that it has a higher liklihood of helping her to succeed. It needs to become more engrained that walking without pulling is a MUCH, MUCH better way to go, it works better to go forward on the walk if there's no pulling. Not only does she get to go....but she gets a rapid delivery of highly tasty treats on a very hungry tummy. Pulling doesn't work. It isn't even much worth pulling in a very boring place where there isn't anything exciting to do anyhow. Meanwhile, this nice walking is getting reinforced over and over, getting engrained.

See? Practice, practice, practice. Age and maturity, setting the dog up for success. Creating a situation whereby she WILL be motivated; a hungry stomach, a tastier treat or something else she loves. Does she want to go, go, go? No forward movement if there is one second of tension on the leash. Consistency. And TIME. LOL.

But it does sound like you're really making some giant head way in lots of ways. You're right, extra smart dogs usually get bored easily with a lot of repitition so it helps to skip around a little bit and throw in some play time inbetween practicing things. I know you know. But some of the things you say make me think that still.....you want things to happen more quickly. Training doesn't happen all at once. It's a life time process.

Suppression, causing a dog to avoid pain or intimidation can make behavior stop very quickly, like on the dog whisperer tv show. That isn't training or rehabilitating. It's shutting a dog down so that he stops, not only the target behvaior, but all behavior. He just stops behaving. Period. (frequently however, some of those behaviors resurface later) This is why it is dangerous to toy with a lot of punishment or physical/emotional aversives. This is why savvy people here were not happy with the trainers you've come across who want to train like a drill seargent and use choke collars or other pain to achieve a toned down dog. I know you're totally against that and can see you're so on the right track. But I just wanted to try to drive home the difference. If you get impatient or frustrated that your pup isn't displaying reliable responses to cues, you might be tempted to follow a trainer like that, albeit probably to a lesser degree, I'm sure. That would be a mistake. Permissiveness though, absolutely isn't good training. But the opposite of permissiveness isn't compulsion. You need to have just a few tools of good, sound behavior modification to achieve the results and to keep you from feeling like you have to "clamp down." Do lots of reading and try some of the things you read. Practice. :)
 
Last edited:

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
Ok, that makes perfect sense. Let's see if I have this concept before I move on.

It's not that she is deliberately stubborn because dogs don't know stubborn. It's much more simplistic. What "she" wants to do what is perceived by her to be more rewarding to her than what "I" want her to do. In other words, if I don't want her to chase a squirrel, her reward from me must be greater than chasing the squirrel.

A step two example. Let's say we are walking by someone sitting in a chair, I'm more likely to have her "look" at me if I give her one tasty treat. But if that person is doing jumping jacks and singing, it might take a whole bait bag full of treats for her to refocus on me. (The higher the distraction the more rewards will be needed to refocus her.)

If I understand this part correctly, my next questions will be about conditioning the response and transitioning her into distractions and selecting suitable rewards based on the distraction levels.

I agree, it's easy for me to say she is stubborn, but I think I see now, that's not what going on. If I have this right, this changes everything.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
Ok, let's take a real world case. We are out walking, she sees a dog. She is totally focused on the dog. I say "Look", she looks at me, then I click and treat. She then immediately refocuses on the dog. I have rewarded the "look" and she has the treat but what I have not accomplished is refocusing her to accept my next command. She's still locked onto the dog.

Is "look" the inappropriate command at that point? Should the command be "heel" and we move away and when she goes with me, then reward the heel?
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
Ok, that makes perfect sense. Let's see if I have this concept before I move on.

It's not that she is deliberately stubborn because dogs don't know stubborn. It's much more simplistic. What "she" wants to do what is perceived by her to be more rewarding to her than what "I" want her to do. In other words, if I don't want her to chase a squirrel, her reward from me must be greater than chasing the squirrel.

A step two example. Let's say we are walking by someone sitting in a chair, I'm more likely to have her "look" at me if I give her one tasty treat. But if that person is doing jumping jacks and singing, it might take a whole bait bag full of treats for her to refocus on me. (The higher the distraction the more rewards will be needed to refocus her.)

If I understand this part correctly, my next questions will be about conditioning the response and transitioning her into distractions and selecting suitable rewards based on the distraction levels.

I agree, it's easy for me to say she is stubborn, but I think I see now, that's not what going on. If I have this right, this changes everything.
EXACTLY. You've got it. On all accounts. I knew you were extra perceptive. :hail:
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
Ok, let's take a real world case. We are out walking, she sees a dog. She is totally focused on the dog. I say "Look", she looks at me, then I click and treat. She then immediately refocuses on the dog. I have rewarded the "look" and she has the treat but what I have not accomplished is refocusing her to accept my next command. She's still locked onto the dog.

Is "look" the inappropriate command at that point? Should the command be "heel" and we move away and when she goes with me, then reward the heel?
What you need to do is to practice the focus (the "look" command) in less distracting environments. Don't be in a rush. Practice where there are no distractions for some time...in your living room, say. What you need to do is build duration GRADUALLY...a second more at a time. As you add a second more, wait for that extra added second to click. If she looks away before you've had a chance to click/treat, you've asked for too much too soon. Go back to where she was successful and work there a little more. (same with everything)

Make it the best thing ever for her to make eye contact with you, even when she does it on her own accord. Don't use the cue if there is much chance of her not looking at you. Get the behvaior going first, then start tying the cue to the behavior, then go onto trying to elicit the behavior with your cue. This is the same with everything. Dogs don't understand language as we do so the cue is meaningless at first, until there has been an association made between it and the behavior. If you rush into using the cue, you risk missing the association and you loose the power of the cue.

So...when you're out on a walk and there are lots of distractions...and you haven't yet built duration in your livingroom and other less distracting environments, don't even waste your time trying to get her to look at you. You risk non compliance and you don't want to set her up to fail. At those times, just change the subject if you want to avoid her getting rowdy. Like you said, turn and go the other way or get her otherwise interested in something else. It's so common for people to try to train their dogs in real life situations that are too much for the dog and too soon.

Like you said, increase the degree of difficulty gradually and increase the motivator proportionately. Reinforce for every correct response for now. Once she gets reliable or fairly regular in different contexts, locations, a few more distractions, even your relative position to her...then you can go onto a variable reinforcement schedule. Dogs don't generalize very well. So, if she can do it in one place or context, it doesn't mean to her that it is the same thing at all in another.

Varying the reward helps too so it doesn't get boring. Start out your session with the less tasty or the less fun (depending on what you're using) so as the session goes, things have the potential to get more interesting and more tasty. And remember, it doesn't have to be a session or block of time. It can be one or two "looks" while you're cooking dinner or doing laundry. Make a fuss over her when she makes eye contact.

Quit the practice before she is apt to get bored or too distracted. Leave her wanting more. Have the last thing she did be a wee of a good time, a success. Don't push the envelope and keep her working if things just aren't going well. There's always tomorrow. It's really important that she has fun, ends on a good note...make the sessions short, especially with such a young dog. You can play and do other things and come back to a skill or two also within your session.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
I knew you were extra perceptive. :hail:
None of us were born knowing anything, someone has to show us or tell us. Our ability to perceptive is in direct proportion to our willingness to learn. The paths we often take are those based on teachings, our environment and experiences, be them right or wrong. I taught my son to reason and to question and pick the right solution based on his heart and personal conviction. While these are positives, perhaps the greatest attribute I taught him was to be open minded. Many times, our own perceptions and other peoples reality may not be our own. An open mind is a smart mind. A smart mind and a good heart is often the mark of a man.

Ok, back to talking puppy. :)

Simple question: How do I find out the dogs primary motivator? What test can I perform, to find out what she goes ga-ga about and what metric should I use? She's a puppy she likes puppy things. I can't be another puppy but if I know what buttons to push, I'll be pushing them, not choking or pinching her.

Humm, I just thought of something, who says I can't be a puppy? Peyton's #1 drive is "play" and I also see a strong attachment to me. I see her walk away from her food bowl just to see where I am, then once she sees me, she goes back to eating. She loves her treats and food, but I think she would leave a treat or food if it meant she could play. Finding her hot button and offering her that may also strengthen our bond. I should play into her strengths for the most positive results.

Goal: Find the most positive reinforcer for Peyton.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
OK, got it, build up the "look" command for a longer duration. I can do that, I love looking at her. :)
 

Doberluv

Active Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Messages
22,038
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
western Wa
The best motivator can and will vary a lot depending on a lot of things. LOL. It's really hard to have any special formula or static kind of measurement other than observation and awareness. It comes with practice.

It's not always about treats, although food rewards are commonly something that scavenging animals like a lot since it represents something needed to "survive." My dogs couldn't survive without homemade liver treats, honey nut cheerios, mozerella cheese tid bits. LOL. And they believe this even more if I happen to be working with them just before they're due for regular meal time.

A dog that's obsessed with tennis balls might rather play fetch a few times than have a treat. A dog that's got a full tummy might rather play a game of tug with a rope toy.

A dog that wants to go play with another dog and is showing this in an unmistakable way isn't likely to be as interested in a pat or affection from you at that moment, but might love a pat and affection from you if he's been deprived for a while and nothing else is going on.

A dog who wants to run and stretch his legs after being inside for a long time might rather have a safe, fenced place to rip roar for a few minutes than have a treat for walking nicely for 20 yards.

In other words, you have to assess individual situations, contexts, your own dog, what has been going on prior....too many variables to mention. But you'll know better the more you observe, think and live with your dog. Ask yourself what does my dog want right now? What can I ask of my dog that we've been working on so that I can give her what she wants right now? Don't waste opportunities to use those things that she likes as reinforcers. If you see your dog behaving in a way you like, give her that attention and belly rub you've been wanting to give. Save some of those belly rubs for when she is behaving nicely.

I don't believe in nothing in life is free. I don't think you have to be extreme if you're not having terrible behavior problems. And I think that can be too stressful and take the fun out of it. I prefer, some things in life are free. LOL.
 

JoeLacy

New Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
493
Likes
0
Points
0
Food works with her, but only for an instant. I did some tests the other day, my treats side my side with chicken hot dogs. She ate my treats first time and every time. I just now tried cheddar cheese next to my treats, she went for the treats every time. I tried kibble and some hard baked and basted biscuits, the results were all the same, my liver/sardine/salmon/egg/garlic treats rule. Either that, or she doesn't want to hurt my feelings or maybe she knew this was a test.:) Yep, life's too short not to get some things for free.

We went to Petsmart today to peruse the isles after we went to the vet. She needed her Parvo booster and is now good to go. 33.9 lbs and growing. While in the waiting room she was whining some. It was just anxiousness to meet new people and smell every inch of the place. Rather than correcting her, I examined her ears, her paws and teeth. That distracted her and the whining stopped at least for a while. Two can play at this distraction thing.

Petsmart went ok, but people keep wanting to pet her, she pulls towards them, she sits sometimes but when she knows it's safe, she's up on her back legs again and all over them. Of course telling her to sit at that point it's too late. I do put her in a sit when the people come up, but after a few pets on the head, it's up on them again. I guess I need to catch her on the way up, stand on her leash, or go back with a treat and try to get her in a stay again.

Of course she saw other dogs and was out of control again and the only thing I could do is remove her. I'm not sure she is connecting with "act up and you'll be removed". It's more like " Where did that dog go?"

Interesting, we walked right by the cats behind the glass and she was totally uninterested. I thought this was a fluke so we went by again. She didn't even react. She sat and watched the parakeets for a while then we came home after a few more trips up and down the Petsmart isles for no reason other than desensitizing her. She got a new toy, I got some pet coupons so everybody won.
 

Jynx

New Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
1,071
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
CT
Joe, I think your doing a great job with her,,can I just add a couple of "ideas" for you..(Dober has hit the nail on the head by the way:)))

You say she is really toy motivated?? that's Good:)) My gsd puppy is VERY toy motivated, more so than food especially out in public,,sooooo to keep her 'occupied' and focused on something other than say other dogs,,I've collected a few good toys that really tune her up and she is far more interested in THEM.. you can find these at probably most pet stores/dog shows,,one is a tennis ball wrapped in fleece with a long "tail"..she LOVES that thing,,another soft small frisbee,,and lastly,,this "stick" thing,,it's like a hard stick wrapped in heavy nylon with fringe on the end,,it's like a "bite" stick,,she will carry any one of those around and as we walk,,I will play tug with her while walking,,

IF your using food,,ever tried "spitting" them at her? LOL sounds gross, and it takes PRACTICE to hit the "mark" :))) but I tend to spit the treat at them,,and use "watch me" as my focus command...

And I also wholeheartedly agree with working on that "watch" /focus without distractions, slowly adding distractions..

Anyhow,,just wanted to throw those out there,,
Diane
 

Members online

No members online now.
Top