Ok, my decision is made. No prong collar and that class is not for me. The forced training subject is now closed. I sometimes go the long way around a decision, but after weighing all my options and thinking about this puppies mental health first, I have made the right one. Let's find a positive trainer to help me and move forward. No further need of discussion on this method of training. My house always has been and will continue to be a prong free zone.
Minding when distracted
- Thread starter JoeLacy
- Start date
Of course you don't want her to pull you down the street. And of course, she can learn to do things according to human "customs." LOL. And I know you don't want to squelch her spirit. But sometimes our desire to have a well behaved dog leads us into the path of certain trainers who are so focused on the result of training rather than the journey and what benefits that journey gifts to us and our dogs. Training is a life long, perpetual thing....never static. And it's hard to be patient sometimes and go with the flow. That's one of those things living with my Doberman taught me....to have a lot more patience than I had before. I had to or I wouldn't have survived. LOL.
Dogs are so capable of connecting with us on account of their evolution/domestication. They're just flat out designed to hang out with humans. But the things we train them to do, like sit, stay, come, heal etc are not natural things and they don't train each other in nature. I mean, wild pariah type dogs don't go around bossing each other around. They're not true pack animals, IMO, although very social. Pariah dogs hang out together and scavange, but random dogs (not all family members, like most pack animals) come and go, join in with a group, then leave. This happens frequently within these groups. There isn't much of an organization between them, such as with wolves when hunting large game. They scavange more than they hunt and scavanging doesn't produce a pack animal because there's usually limited resources to distribute. Distributing food is one of those pack behaviors.
This whole concept that is unrelentingly latched onto by over zealous trainers and owners that we have to show them who's boss is so incongruous to the reality of dogs. This force type training is so unnecessary and really goes against their nature. Trying to guess at what kind of hierarchy, if any is present in any given dog is pure guess work. Nothing has been concluded in that area. Behaviorism is not guess work, is not guess work that dogs are capable of learning and changing behavior due to the laws of behavior. That is why behaviorists and truly enlightened trainers utilize learning theory and leave out the part about harsh punishment or pain because those things just aren't needed to train a dog. (okay, off my soap box. I know people get tired of it)
So, I hope you can take the time to read up and find a trainer who really knows behavior. I truly think you'll make better head way with your dog this way...be a better leader to your dog because good, effective leaders in any species control resources rather than control by force, avoidance etc. Training using those kinds of aversives that are often used within that philosophy can create avoidance/aggressive behaviors and a whole lot of other unwanted side effects.
If you need any websites or info, be sure to ask. There's a lot of good stuff out there, as well as some wonderful books that can really give you some insight. One of my favorites is Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. I highly recommend it to get a big jump start.
Dogs are so capable of connecting with us on account of their evolution/domestication. They're just flat out designed to hang out with humans. But the things we train them to do, like sit, stay, come, heal etc are not natural things and they don't train each other in nature. I mean, wild pariah type dogs don't go around bossing each other around. They're not true pack animals, IMO, although very social. Pariah dogs hang out together and scavange, but random dogs (not all family members, like most pack animals) come and go, join in with a group, then leave. This happens frequently within these groups. There isn't much of an organization between them, such as with wolves when hunting large game. They scavange more than they hunt and scavanging doesn't produce a pack animal because there's usually limited resources to distribute. Distributing food is one of those pack behaviors.
This whole concept that is unrelentingly latched onto by over zealous trainers and owners that we have to show them who's boss is so incongruous to the reality of dogs. This force type training is so unnecessary and really goes against their nature. Trying to guess at what kind of hierarchy, if any is present in any given dog is pure guess work. Nothing has been concluded in that area. Behaviorism is not guess work, is not guess work that dogs are capable of learning and changing behavior due to the laws of behavior. That is why behaviorists and truly enlightened trainers utilize learning theory and leave out the part about harsh punishment or pain because those things just aren't needed to train a dog. (okay, off my soap box. I know people get tired of it)
So, I hope you can take the time to read up and find a trainer who really knows behavior. I truly think you'll make better head way with your dog this way...be a better leader to your dog because good, effective leaders in any species control resources rather than control by force, avoidance etc. Training using those kinds of aversives that are often used within that philosophy can create avoidance/aggressive behaviors and a whole lot of other unwanted side effects.
If you need any websites or info, be sure to ask. There's a lot of good stuff out there, as well as some wonderful books that can really give you some insight. One of my favorites is Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. I highly recommend it to get a big jump start.
This is why your a great dad to your human kids and it will be the same for your dog as well.
We will help you, come hell or high water, we will find you a great trainer.
Thats the mission of the week.
Have you tried contacting this place? Or are they too far from you?
http://www.proofpositivetraining.com/index.html
We will help you, come hell or high water, we will find you a great trainer.
Thats the mission of the week.
Have you tried contacting this place? Or are they too far from you?
http://www.proofpositivetraining.com/index.html
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By life-style change, I don't mean that you're transforming from a cruel person to a kind person. I mean that a large number of positive method trainers using behaviorism today have at one time relied on more traditional, compulsive or forceful methods of training, even if they weren't particularly cruel about it. That IS a life style change. There are habits to get out of, different ways to look at things. It's a life style change to learn a whole new science and learn to apply it. That's all I meant. And don't be sorry that I wrote all that. It was meant to be helpful in perhaps getting a little different view of how dogs are than what you and I, as well as many have quite possibly been lead to believe...in the past.
Ok, thanks. This breed from what I have read, are bred to be working/house dogs and very social. I think that maybe she just got an extra strand of the Social Genome. 
It's a good thing and I could have far worse problems. Other than the issue at hand, she is a near perfect dog for me. The minor things like pawing in her water bowl on occasion I can deal with, but something that could save her life like recall or running towards aggressive dogs is not up for negotiation.
I think it's human nature that when you have a Hammer, everything looks like a nail. I fell victim to that last night, but thankfully I regained consciousness. While I don't have the right trainer defined, at least know what type of trainer I don't want and that is progress in itself.
It's a good thing and I could have far worse problems. Other than the issue at hand, she is a near perfect dog for me. The minor things like pawing in her water bowl on occasion I can deal with, but something that could save her life like recall or running towards aggressive dogs is not up for negotiation.
I think it's human nature that when you have a Hammer, everything looks like a nail. I fell victim to that last night, but thankfully I regained consciousness. While I don't have the right trainer defined, at least know what type of trainer I don't want and that is progress in itself.
I may have found some help. I spoke with the guy and he seemed like a good fit. Does clicker, no pinch, no kicking like CM.
"“Positive” means something that we give to your dog, and “negative” means something that we take away from your dog, just like “plus” and “minus” in arithmetic"
http://www.happyhumanhappydog.com/wordpress/?page_id=2
I have several more calls into other trainers. I'm looking...
"“Positive” means something that we give to your dog, and “negative” means something that we take away from your dog, just like “plus” and “minus” in arithmetic"
http://www.happyhumanhappydog.com/wordpress/?page_id=2
I have several more calls into other trainers. I'm looking...
This person was recommend to me for you, although it is mainly an agility training school, Worth contacting to see if they can help you.
http://www.bestfriendsagility.com/
This is another one, also recommended and is known for working with dogs with issues. Hope either one of these is close to you, personally I would try the second one first, Debbie Spencer, this is part of the e mail that I received for recommendations on trainers......' she's a good, positive trainer. She's very well liked by her students. She's in Rome, Tx.'
http://www.pawsagility.com/index.htm
http://www.bestfriendsagility.com/
This is another one, also recommended and is known for working with dogs with issues. Hope either one of these is close to you, personally I would try the second one first, Debbie Spencer, this is part of the e mail that I received for recommendations on trainers......' she's a good, positive trainer. She's very well liked by her students. She's in Rome, Tx.'
http://www.pawsagility.com/index.htm
Joe, I think you've gotten some WONDERFUL advice here,,and I'm going to throw my 2cents in hopefully without getting lengthy, and what I've learned from my two aussies (and never having been an aussie owner prior).
They ARE an enthusiastic HAPPY dog,,my aussies would have turned into 'turnips' if I used harsh corrections/prong collars on them..My female Jynx especially, while a toughie, is a soft dog at heart, and harshness would have put her into a meltdown.
Why do I know this? because having German Shepherds for almost 30 years who are, in my opinion, a stronger willed, thicker skinned dog, and training them a different way,,aussies are not gsd's and different methods worked MUCH better,,as in Positive methods..
My aussies respond very well to clicker training,,they learned more "trick" type things in the beginning FAST,,,before they really became polished in more obedience behaviors,,as in walking on loose leash,,not jumping on people,,not taking off and ignoring me...That came with time, patience ,,very short training sessions,,HIGH value rewards when training, and slowly introducing distractions..
Heck even at 9 yrs old,,my Jynxie sees a bird and I don't exist at times))))
It's JUST an aussie)))
I also agree with a poster who said,,dogs don't 'know' what your asking in the beginning,,I do/did ALOT of free shaping with them,,just sitting around,,they'd go into a "down",,,I would click and say GOOD DOWN! I ALWAYS had my clicker on me and good rewards.. Also when I'm training,,treats are always OUT of site,,(in my clicker hand) I don' show them a treat and say "do this" ,,they are hidden, so as not to bribe the dog into the behavior..
I could go on and on about what these aussies have taught me training wise,,but alot of it has already been posted...We have a 6mth old male aussie in our basics class, and he is a WILD man),,,it's AGE,,and yours is just taking advantage of enjoying "life" at this stage.. If you push to hard, she'll shut down,,(I have seen it with mine)..
I highly recommend getting into a Clicker based positive training class..you won't regret it..It's not an overnite fix but with a good trainer,,you will gain alot of insite on 'how' to train...
as for leash pulling,,thisi s what I do with ALL my young dogs,,,it's dizzying,,and repetitious,,but it seems to work,,,(good for distractions to),,if the dog pulls,,immediately change direction (use a 6ft leash),,without SAYING ONE WORD,,keep changing directions and GO,,don't just walk,,walk briskly and confidently,,,when the dog finally gets in that place you want,,(I like a left side heel doesn't have to be perfect but no pulling),,I praise her to the winds,,and reward her,,KEEP GOING,,same with a distraction,,if she pulls towards another dog,,turn around and GET MOVING,,,again,,I keep my mouth SHUT,,until the dog is in the position I want them, and then I am telling them what a GREAT DOG they are and reward....
Ok,,done rambling,,slow down, breathe,,she is going to be a wonderful dog with age,,altho aussies sometimes NEVER grow up LOL
diane
They ARE an enthusiastic HAPPY dog,,my aussies would have turned into 'turnips' if I used harsh corrections/prong collars on them..My female Jynx especially, while a toughie, is a soft dog at heart, and harshness would have put her into a meltdown.
Why do I know this? because having German Shepherds for almost 30 years who are, in my opinion, a stronger willed, thicker skinned dog, and training them a different way,,aussies are not gsd's and different methods worked MUCH better,,as in Positive methods..
My aussies respond very well to clicker training,,they learned more "trick" type things in the beginning FAST,,,before they really became polished in more obedience behaviors,,as in walking on loose leash,,not jumping on people,,not taking off and ignoring me...That came with time, patience ,,very short training sessions,,HIGH value rewards when training, and slowly introducing distractions..
Heck even at 9 yrs old,,my Jynxie sees a bird and I don't exist at times
))))It's JUST an aussie
)))I also agree with a poster who said,,dogs don't 'know' what your asking in the beginning,,I do/did ALOT of free shaping with them,,just sitting around,,they'd go into a "down",,,I would click and say GOOD DOWN! I ALWAYS had my clicker on me and good rewards.. Also when I'm training,,treats are always OUT of site,,(in my clicker hand) I don' show them a treat and say "do this" ,,they are hidden, so as not to bribe the dog into the behavior..
I could go on and on about what these aussies have taught me training wise,,but alot of it has already been posted...We have a 6mth old male aussie in our basics class, and he is a WILD man
),,,it's AGE,,and yours is just taking advantage of enjoying "life" at this stage.. If you push to hard, she'll shut down,,(I have seen it with mine)..I highly recommend getting into a Clicker based positive training class..you won't regret it..It's not an overnite fix but with a good trainer,,you will gain alot of insite on 'how' to train...
as for leash pulling,,thisi s what I do with ALL my young dogs,,,it's dizzying,,and repetitious,,but it seems to work,,,(good for distractions to),,if the dog pulls,,immediately change direction (use a 6ft leash),,without SAYING ONE WORD,,keep changing directions and GO,,don't just walk,,walk briskly and confidently,,,when the dog finally gets in that place you want,,(I like a left side heel doesn't have to be perfect but no pulling),,I praise her to the winds,,and reward her,,KEEP GOING,,same with a distraction,,if she pulls towards another dog,,turn around and GET MOVING,,,again,,I keep my mouth SHUT,,until the dog is in the position I want them, and then I am telling them what a GREAT DOG they are and reward....
Ok,,done rambling,,slow down, breathe,,she is going to be a wonderful dog with age,,altho aussies sometimes NEVER grow up LOL
diane
I see you have an aussie too. You are exactly correct, just the shear mention of the word no, sends mine into a guilt trip for an hour. I have to be careful not to use "that" word in causal conversation . She's so sensitive and has such eye expressions I often think I know what's on her mind. Being harsh with her is not an option plain and simple. I must walk a fine line here.
I will try the change of direction, thanks for the post.
Back to calling Trainers. I'll start with those posted.
. She's so sensitive and has such eye expressions I often think I know what's on her mind. Being harsh with her is not an option plain and simple. I must walk a fine line here. I will try the change of direction, thanks for the post.
Back to calling Trainers. I'll start with those posted.
We're going to school tonight.
http://www.topdogdallas.com/Beginners.htm
This trainer was referred by a lady who is now retired from dog training. The class tonight is how to behave around other dogs. She said no dog is too wild and she is a positive trainer. 10 dogs in the class and 3 trainers.
http://www.topdogdallas.com/Beginners.htm
This trainer was referred by a lady who is now retired from dog training. The class tonight is how to behave around other dogs. She said no dog is too wild and she is a positive trainer. 10 dogs in the class and 3 trainers.
One - the trainers I know unfortunately are not willing to drive the 5+ hours to Dallas to see a client.
Two - I've only lived in TX a year and haven't built up a "network" spanning that distance yet.
Three - The OP was given a list of several trainers - from a person who lives in Dallas, no less - on another thread a week ago or more and never responded. I think that list would be a better place to start, but of course if those trainers didn't come through, I'd see what I could do.
To the OP - hope the class went well tonight!
Two - I've only lived in TX a year and haven't built up a "network" spanning that distance yet.
Three - The OP was given a list of several trainers - from a person who lives in Dallas, no less - on another thread a week ago or more and never responded. I think that list would be a better place to start, but of course if those trainers didn't come through, I'd see what I could do.
To the OP - hope the class went well tonight!
If you want to take it further.....
Reinforcement means that the behavior is more likely to occur again, and punishment means that the behavior is less likely to occur again.
Positive reinforcement: Giving something that will make the behavior more likely to occur again. Example - giving a treat for a sit.
Positive punishment: Giving something that will make the behavior less likely to occur again. Example - yelling at your dog for peeing in the house.
(It always makes me laugh when trainers say they use "all positive" methods.)
Negative reinforcement: Taking something away so that the behavior is more likely to occur again. Example: To teach retrieve, pinch a dog's ear until he opens his mouth to vocalize, at which point you shove a dumbell in his mouth and stop pinching his ear. To the dog, taking the dumbell gets the pain to stop.
Negative punishment: Taking something away so that the behavior is less likely to occur again. Example: When your dog barks at you for attention, you turn around and walk away. You remove yourself to punish the barking.
If you're interested in these learning theories, you should read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog." Or of course, do what many of the trainers on this forum and I did, get a degree in psychology.
Reinforcement means that the behavior is more likely to occur again, and punishment means that the behavior is less likely to occur again.
Positive reinforcement: Giving something that will make the behavior more likely to occur again. Example - giving a treat for a sit.
Positive punishment: Giving something that will make the behavior less likely to occur again. Example - yelling at your dog for peeing in the house.
(It always makes me laugh when trainers say they use "all positive" methods.)
Negative reinforcement: Taking something away so that the behavior is more likely to occur again. Example: To teach retrieve, pinch a dog's ear until he opens his mouth to vocalize, at which point you shove a dumbell in his mouth and stop pinching his ear. To the dog, taking the dumbell gets the pain to stop.
Negative punishment: Taking something away so that the behavior is less likely to occur again. Example: When your dog barks at you for attention, you turn around and walk away. You remove yourself to punish the barking.
If you're interested in these learning theories, you should read Karen Pryor's "Don't Shoot the Dog." Or of course, do what many of the trainers on this forum and I did, get a degree in psychology.
Class went well. Where do I even start?
Peyton is home and none the worse for the wear. First 1/2 of class was rough, but she came around at the end "pretty" well.
The trainer worked with Peyton then worked with Peyton and I. We both need practice.
The trainer said she is highly dog driven. Stay away from other dogs until I get better control. Don't set her up to fail. If I see another dog while we are out, go in the other direction for now. Peyton will learn how to act around other dogs in the class and needs socialization more than play time with dogs. NO more dogs parks at least for now as it's only increasing her already out of control doggy drive. When she see other dogs, she thinks it's play time ala Dog Park. She said there is a time and place for play, but when she's on a leash, that's not one of them. Peyton needs to learn that as well as how to approach another dog. This is for her own safety.
Trainer said I will never wear her down physically but can wear her down mentally by making her think. Mental games for a dog that is smart like Peyton is the prescription.
I had a Martingale on her and a leather leash. I was instructed how to use it and saw results. We walked up and down a wall several times, and I was blocking her with my leg when she got in front of me. She was walking nicely even with other dogs out there. Not perfect, but real progress was made in heeling and Peyton was looking at me for direction more than usual. I was making her think and she was too busy thinking to be out of control.
Occasionally, she would lunge at other dogs, only to play but the trainer told me that must stop as it would cause fights. I gave her some slack, popped the martingale then gave her a loose leash. She understood at least for a while and we moved right past the other dogs.
Rome wasn't built in a day and I didn't expect to come away tonight with this issue resolved and it was not. But at least I have some directions and homework for this week. The trainer seems good and her studio is laden with ribbons and trophies. She does not work out of a Petco, she has a real dog studio. There were 3 trainers there plus assistants I had two trainers for Peyton and I. There were about 10-15 dogs and we were separated outside of the facility and inside by beginners and more advanced.
We went into sit/stay and down/stay at the end and Peyton did great and this was with another dog 3 feet away. Peyton was getting the message somewhere in all this that being a crazy dog was not going to get it anymore. She was laser focused on me. I had her attention and her attention was not on other dogs at least for a moment.
My sense is that I'm on the right track now and have some direction. I need to be a stronger pack leader and not be afraid to correct her. She's like an unruly teenager and needs rules which I have not been giving her effectively. She slept with her head in my lap on the way home and is sound asleep as I type this.
There was no clicker training, no treat training. Rewards came in praise and a loose leash. I insisted on no prong collar and that was not needed for her anyway. Trainer said she's getting the message at the end, and I agree.
It wasn't as bad as I expected. Sure, there were times she was out of control but eventually she seemed to calm down amidst all odds. Dogs are her weak point so I need to stay focused on that point of control. The trainer said, all points for control begin with the walk. I will walk next to a wall several times a day until we get this walk down. I lead her I never follow. There was some heal nipping going on and that's something I have never seen before. She was behind me, not dragging me for a change.
She came away better than she was, and that's all I can expect from one hour. I signed up for a 6 week class because I saw progress in her and myself. What the trainer said made sense as a bottom line. She doesn't know how I want her to act, and it's my job to explain what I expect. I have not been doing a good job of that and her lack of understanding is my fault not hers.
Her drive is so strong, this could not be handled by treats and praise alone the trainer said. Being firm but fair seemed to have an real effect, saying please and being wishy washy just does not cut it with her given how strong her drive.
Given the fact she's so bright not much correction will be needed but it should be used should she forget the rules. This made sense too. If my son did not do his homework he could not watch TV. If he road his bike out of his boundaries I would put up his bike for a week. It's all a form of correction and something I was lacking with Peyton. As relentless as her drive, I need to be even more relentless in my resolve that the behavior she is exhibiting is unacceptable. It's really no more complicated than that and was the basis or what I cane away with tonight along with some tools to enforce it. Overall, it was worthwhile hour.
Sorry Lizzy, I did not see that post on another thread. I'll go check it now. Thanks for posting and reminding me.
Peyton is home and none the worse for the wear. First 1/2 of class was rough, but she came around at the end "pretty" well.
The trainer worked with Peyton then worked with Peyton and I. We both need practice.
The trainer said she is highly dog driven. Stay away from other dogs until I get better control. Don't set her up to fail. If I see another dog while we are out, go in the other direction for now. Peyton will learn how to act around other dogs in the class and needs socialization more than play time with dogs. NO more dogs parks at least for now as it's only increasing her already out of control doggy drive. When she see other dogs, she thinks it's play time ala Dog Park. She said there is a time and place for play, but when she's on a leash, that's not one of them. Peyton needs to learn that as well as how to approach another dog. This is for her own safety.
Trainer said I will never wear her down physically but can wear her down mentally by making her think. Mental games for a dog that is smart like Peyton is the prescription.
I had a Martingale on her and a leather leash. I was instructed how to use it and saw results. We walked up and down a wall several times, and I was blocking her with my leg when she got in front of me. She was walking nicely even with other dogs out there. Not perfect, but real progress was made in heeling and Peyton was looking at me for direction more than usual. I was making her think and she was too busy thinking to be out of control.
Occasionally, she would lunge at other dogs, only to play but the trainer told me that must stop as it would cause fights. I gave her some slack, popped the martingale then gave her a loose leash. She understood at least for a while and we moved right past the other dogs.
Rome wasn't built in a day and I didn't expect to come away tonight with this issue resolved and it was not. But at least I have some directions and homework for this week. The trainer seems good and her studio is laden with ribbons and trophies. She does not work out of a Petco, she has a real dog studio. There were 3 trainers there plus assistants I had two trainers for Peyton and I. There were about 10-15 dogs and we were separated outside of the facility and inside by beginners and more advanced.
We went into sit/stay and down/stay at the end and Peyton did great and this was with another dog 3 feet away. Peyton was getting the message somewhere in all this that being a crazy dog was not going to get it anymore. She was laser focused on me. I had her attention and her attention was not on other dogs at least for a moment.
My sense is that I'm on the right track now and have some direction. I need to be a stronger pack leader and not be afraid to correct her. She's like an unruly teenager and needs rules which I have not been giving her effectively. She slept with her head in my lap on the way home and is sound asleep as I type this.
There was no clicker training, no treat training. Rewards came in praise and a loose leash. I insisted on no prong collar and that was not needed for her anyway. Trainer said she's getting the message at the end, and I agree.
It wasn't as bad as I expected. Sure, there were times she was out of control but eventually she seemed to calm down amidst all odds. Dogs are her weak point so I need to stay focused on that point of control. The trainer said, all points for control begin with the walk. I will walk next to a wall several times a day until we get this walk down. I lead her I never follow. There was some heal nipping going on and that's something I have never seen before. She was behind me, not dragging me for a change.
She came away better than she was, and that's all I can expect from one hour. I signed up for a 6 week class because I saw progress in her and myself. What the trainer said made sense as a bottom line. She doesn't know how I want her to act, and it's my job to explain what I expect. I have not been doing a good job of that and her lack of understanding is my fault not hers.
Her drive is so strong, this could not be handled by treats and praise alone the trainer said. Being firm but fair seemed to have an real effect, saying please and being wishy washy just does not cut it with her given how strong her drive.
Given the fact she's so bright not much correction will be needed but it should be used should she forget the rules. This made sense too. If my son did not do his homework he could not watch TV. If he road his bike out of his boundaries I would put up his bike for a week. It's all a form of correction and something I was lacking with Peyton. As relentless as her drive, I need to be even more relentless in my resolve that the behavior she is exhibiting is unacceptable. It's really no more complicated than that and was the basis or what I cane away with tonight along with some tools to enforce it. Overall, it was worthwhile hour.
Sorry Lizzy, I did not see that post on another thread. I'll go check it now. Thanks for posting and reminding me.
That is not a positive trainer.............you may want to look up the documented damage done to tracheas from 'popping a dog' even in a martingale.
Been there, done that and wouldn't train my dogs that way now for love nor money.
Sorry I wasted my time trying to find you a good trainer and bothered other trainers I know by asking for referals in Dallas..............
Btw did you pop you son with a collar around his neck when he didn't do his homework?
Good luck
Been there, done that and wouldn't train my dogs that way now for love nor money.
Sorry I wasted my time trying to find you a good trainer and bothered other trainers I know by asking for referals in Dallas..............
Btw did you pop you son with a collar around his neck when he didn't do his homework?
Good luck
Gee, all the good things that came out of that last night was negated by one little pop?
Wait....the vast majority was not punishment based, 99.99% of it anyway. The trainer said the Martingale was there only for the most extreme out of control behavior and it was meant to redirect the attention when the dog's behavior is so out of control and there were no other means of getting the dogs attention. That seemed reasonable to me to have the tool should I need it and know how to use it properly. I didn't see any pops at all on the other dogs.
I looked at all the trainers you posted Adojrts and I thank you for taking your time. Texas is a big place and they were too far for me. Each were well over an hour each way. I live in Dallas, Keller is near Ft. Worth, Rome Texas is in between and I used to work nearby. It's about an hour or more with no traffic. I need something well under a 1 hour drive.
What I saw last night looked different to me than the night before. The dogs last night looked like dogs, seemed very happy and not like robots from that Prong collar class. The difference between the two class were more than that, this new class allowed play time under control conditions. Peyton didn't get to play but I saw other dogs playing and having fun during "break time" through the window. All the dogs seemed like happy dogs on and off leash to me, unlike the night before. I did see any overly stern verbal commands or yelling at the dogs. I saw no dogs with their tails between the legs. In the more advanced class I saw a mound of treats being handed out and lots of praise and petting and excitement towards the dogs for a job well done. Peyton got her new cookies too for being well behaved but the main focus for us was establishing my role as pack leader and we worked on that in the walk.
If I thought anything cruel was going on, or if I saw in the eyes of the other dogs the same as I saw the night before I would have left. I didn't see any of that, I saw happy dogs that had kind but firm and consistent leadership from their owners and great focus from the dogs.
Rasing any child for me is a simple as this. You demand respect for your decisions, until they are capable of making good decisions on there own.
I have always raised my children with a "loose leash" so to speak. I have said many times to him, "I will give you enough rope to get out there and wiggle around, but I will not give you enough rope to hang yourself". I always gave him the freedom to be his own person and learn how to make his own mistakes while teaching him how to think on his own. I was never cruel to my son and will not be be cruel to this wonderful dog, but what I will do is lay down ground rules within a reasonable set of my own guidelines and enforce them until she learns what "I" believe to be acceptable behavior. Peyton has plenty of room for error with me, I'm a patient father not a dictator.
My son and I have one of the tightest bonds on the planet because I gave him love and respect along with guidance and not let him run a muck out there. He was rewarded for good behavior and reprimanded for bad. I never said to him, "just because I said so" but gave him the reasoning behind my decisions. I don't have the power of words with Peyton and she has had NO guidance whatsoever up until me. Her behaviors are somewhat ingrained now and a firmer resolved must be used for her safety as well as her socializations. I will give her enough leash to wiggle, but I will not use the Martingale to hang her.
I had not established pack order. That was evident last night and I had not realized it. I was training her to sit, stay, down before I had established that order. I had the cart before the horse, the tail was waggin' the dog. So what I have to do now is go back and establish pack order and my role as leader. Then and only then can we move on. If I got nothing else out of that class and never go back, that alone was worth the price of admission.
Today I will up the game, she will be rewarded heavily for heeling well and not rewarded for pulling. She won't be on the Martingale because we will not be meeting other dogs. It's simply a tool in the tool chest of options and only for the extreme and will never be her lifestyle.
Wait....the vast majority was not punishment based, 99.99% of it anyway. The trainer said the Martingale was there only for the most extreme out of control behavior and it was meant to redirect the attention when the dog's behavior is so out of control and there were no other means of getting the dogs attention. That seemed reasonable to me to have the tool should I need it and know how to use it properly. I didn't see any pops at all on the other dogs.
I looked at all the trainers you posted Adojrts and I thank you for taking your time. Texas is a big place and they were too far for me. Each were well over an hour each way. I live in Dallas, Keller is near Ft. Worth, Rome Texas is in between and I used to work nearby. It's about an hour or more with no traffic. I need something well under a 1 hour drive.
What I saw last night looked different to me than the night before. The dogs last night looked like dogs, seemed very happy and not like robots from that Prong collar class. The difference between the two class were more than that, this new class allowed play time under control conditions. Peyton didn't get to play but I saw other dogs playing and having fun during "break time" through the window. All the dogs seemed like happy dogs on and off leash to me, unlike the night before. I did see any overly stern verbal commands or yelling at the dogs. I saw no dogs with their tails between the legs. In the more advanced class I saw a mound of treats being handed out and lots of praise and petting and excitement towards the dogs for a job well done. Peyton got her new cookies too for being well behaved but the main focus for us was establishing my role as pack leader and we worked on that in the walk.
If I thought anything cruel was going on, or if I saw in the eyes of the other dogs the same as I saw the night before I would have left. I didn't see any of that, I saw happy dogs that had kind but firm and consistent leadership from their owners and great focus from the dogs.
Rasing any child for me is a simple as this. You demand respect for your decisions, until they are capable of making good decisions on there own.
I have always raised my children with a "loose leash" so to speak. I have said many times to him, "I will give you enough rope to get out there and wiggle around, but I will not give you enough rope to hang yourself". I always gave him the freedom to be his own person and learn how to make his own mistakes while teaching him how to think on his own. I was never cruel to my son and will not be be cruel to this wonderful dog, but what I will do is lay down ground rules within a reasonable set of my own guidelines and enforce them until she learns what "I" believe to be acceptable behavior. Peyton has plenty of room for error with me, I'm a patient father not a dictator.
My son and I have one of the tightest bonds on the planet because I gave him love and respect along with guidance and not let him run a muck out there. He was rewarded for good behavior and reprimanded for bad. I never said to him, "just because I said so" but gave him the reasoning behind my decisions. I don't have the power of words with Peyton and she has had NO guidance whatsoever up until me. Her behaviors are somewhat ingrained now and a firmer resolved must be used for her safety as well as her socializations. I will give her enough leash to wiggle, but I will not use the Martingale to hang her.
I had not established pack order. That was evident last night and I had not realized it. I was training her to sit, stay, down before I had established that order. I had the cart before the horse, the tail was waggin' the dog. So what I have to do now is go back and establish pack order and my role as leader. Then and only then can we move on. If I got nothing else out of that class and never go back, that alone was worth the price of admission.
Today I will up the game, she will be rewarded heavily for heeling well and not rewarded for pulling. She won't be on the Martingale because we will not be meeting other dogs. It's simply a tool in the tool chest of options and only for the extreme and will never be her lifestyle.