Minding when distracted

[JoeLacy]

ok, I'll try upping the food reward. At this point she knows what I want, she just ignores the command. The more she ignores me and gets away with it, the more she learns she "can" get away with it. If I don't stop this now, it will be harder to break down the line.

Anytime I let her meet another dog, I'm setting her up to fail. It might mean that she does not get to see a dog until I can get her in training. Last night I felt frustration more than anything else and removed both of us from the situation.

I made an appointment for 12 days from now with a trainer. I could not get in any sooner. I'm not sure what to do in the interim other than keep looking for another trainer.

I have never been stern with her. I may try some different voice inflections today and see if I can bring her around. One thing is clear, she's out of control at times and that's not pleasurable for anyone.

One thing I have noticed. When I give her a command, it sometimes takes a second for her to process it. I say it once and wait... I can almost see her trying to figure out what I want, or asking if I really mean it, then she does it. That time for her to mentally process the command may be interrupted by her own desires when in such an excited state. In other words, the command may be getting lost in the mental process when she's gone bonkers.

In mild distractions outside, like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obHhqMw6dpw
she does a good job. Past that distraction level it's chaos. I think I will test her today and see at what minimal distraction point she fails and back off a bit. Get her solid there when I raise the distraction bar slightly, then increase the distraction level and use higher value food rewards and see if voice inflections do any good at all. I'm at a lost at this point and not seeing any improvement at all which is my fault not hers.

When do I train? Morning , afternoon or night? Do I take her for a walk or run before the training? One thing I think I have been doing wrong is feeding her before training and I'll correct that today.

 

[smkie]

i would train several times a day but keep your sessions very very short. Mix praise in instead of treats..but i am not a treat trainer, so that is just my opinion. YOu want to make this as fun as possible for your dog so it doesn't get boring. When i worked Victor, a down stay was rewarded with a short run by both of us while he was on leash. Try not to be predicitible, mix it up so our dog is always wondering what YOUR going to do next.

 

[JoeLacy]

That's another good point. My pup does not eat much food. She does not eat what she should according to the bag and I have another post going on that very subject.

She is affection motivated and never misses an opportunity to seek it out so maybe that will help. She pulls the most when she meets a new dog and second most when she meets new people.

She has never pulled to get to food but then it's always an all you can eat situation around my house. Food is just not an issue here. I'll try something different today along with more fun and see show she responds.

 

[Lilavati]

lol the quail hearts are freeze dried and come from a local vender that makes all kinds of cool dog treats, all natural etc.
I don't know if they ship to the states or not but I can find out. I am going to an agility trial next month and they should be set up there. They are also located just in the next town from me and I can give him a call.

The quail hearts even freeze dried are still soft and not badly dried out, easy but not messy to split in two. I was really surprised at how much my dogs went nuts for them.............so I use them at trials as a huge reward for a job well done or when training something really difficult.

If you could, I'd love to find out if they ship to the States

 

[adojrts]

ok, I'll try upping the food reward. At this point she knows what I want, she just ignores the command. The more she ignores me and gets away with it, the more she learns she "can" get away with it. If I don't stop this now, it will be harder to break down the line.

Anytime I let her meet another dog, I'm setting her up to fail. It might mean that she does not get to see a dog until I can get her in training. Last night I felt frustration more than anything else and removed both of us from the situation.

I made an appointment for 12 days from now with a trainer. I could not get in any sooner. I'm not sure what to do in the interim other than keep looking for another trainer.

I have never been stern with her. I may try some different voice inflections today and see if I can bring her around. One thing is clear, she's out of control at times and that's not pleasurable for anyone.

One thing I have noticed. When I give her a command, it sometimes takes a second for her to process it. I say it once and wait... I can almost see her trying to figure out what I want, or asking if I really mean it, then she does it. That time for her to mentally process the command may be interrupted by her own desires when in such an excited state. In other words, the command may be getting lost in the mental process when she's gone bonkers.

In mild distractions outside, like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obHhqMw6dpw
she does a good job. Past that distraction level it's chaos. I think I will test her today and see at what minimal distraction point she fails and back off a bit. Get her solid there when I raise the distraction bar slightly, then increase the distraction level and use higher value food rewards and see if voice inflections do any good at all. I'm at a lost at this point and not seeing any improvement at all which is my fault not hers.

When do I train? Morning , afternoon or night? Do I take her for a walk or run before the training? One thing I think I have been doing wrong is feeding her before training and I'll correct that today.

Are you free feeding her? If so you are missing a great chance to train not to mention it is harder to house train them and in the long run its not healthy for any dog.
Very easy to use a meal and hand feeding to motivate a dog espeically a puppy.
Personally I don't use verbal commands until I know that the dog/pup will do them reliably all the time with no chance of being blown off or the dog doing a slow response.
It very well could be that your girl doesn't completely understand the command and is being slow to respond or in the past you have given multiple commmands for one behaviour which teaches our dogs to ignore the first command.

Training doesn't have to be any set time, train in short sessions throughout the day, 2-3 mins here and there.
You can also teach her some self control games like It's Your Choice etc.
do a search on this site or google and it should come up. We use it and recommend it all the time. (I am sick at this point and really don't feel up to writing it all out again )

If she is really out of control look at purchasing this book, Control Unleashed, it is very helpful and a good read.

Also please re-cap for me when she is out of control? Is it when she sees other dogs? And wants to meet and greet? (I do believe that is the it lol)
Maybe just maybe at this point there is another way to help you fix this or at least calm things down a bit until you can get some help.

 

[JoeLacy]

Thanks Adojts.
To recap:
She is a 6month old recuse Aussie. 15 days ago I brought her home. Never been in a car, been on leash, never seen a tennis ball, never heard the word sit, no, down or any command that I could find and not housebroken. This was a neglected dog picked up as a stray with a scar on her neck like she had an embedded collar. I don't even think she had seen a bird before me. That's where I started 15 days ago.

That video shows where she is today, she is housebroken now, loves the car, loves the dog park and is very social with people and other dogs. No aggression except when she's spooked. She is reactive. She used to want to chase bicycles when I first got her. Not today. She has has a fairly intensive de-sensitizing. I take to to the Bike/Jogger paths, the dog park, walk her on ultra busy streets, she has been to high volume social gatherings and even an outdoor rock concert. She is loose leash trained now and only pulls when she gets out of control. I have been clicker training her since I got her along with verbal and hand cues. I have no previous dog training experience.

She pulls the hardest when she sees other dogs but also gets distracted at paper blowing in the wind and people walking by. The world is still new to her even though she's 6 months old. I have tried to be very consistent with my commands. I have one word for sit, one for down, one for look at me, drop it and so on. That video I think shows that she has at least a basic understanding of the commands.

The issue is when other things are going on, she minds less and sometimes not at all. I can't get her to refocus on my commands because she is focused on whatever interest her at the time. That could be a blowing leaf or a leaf blower. In the house, she perfect, outside with minimal distractions she does well, raise the distraction level and it's an entirely different story. In the pet store for example, she pulls, whines, jumps and goes generally off her rocker.

Other dogs is #1, she wants to play. People are #2, she wants to meet for affection. and #3 is anything that moves. This could go in any order depending on the situation.

You nailed it. I command her and she blows me off. I'm guessing now it's because what's interesting her at the time is more interesting than I am or the reward is not worth the command.

 

[adojrts]

I didn't watch the video bc I have dial up and videos take too long to download.
Darlin you need to relax. In 15 days you have done a wonderful job with her and she has learned a TON especially with someone who has never trained a dog before, kudes to both of you.

You have to learn that there are 3 levels of learning for anything, humans, dogs, horses,whales etc. Progression, regression and platueas and you can hit an one of those levels at anytime.
Training is like a 10 story building, you start in the basement and start walking up the stairs, each step is learning ONE behaviour, but we have to go back to the basement when we change the location of where we have been training. Dogs don't generalize very well and they have to learn over time and repeated lessons of the same behaviours in different places, that we want those behaviours in new places. And you go back up the stairs again as you progress, then you may have to stay on a floor for a while continuing to train the same behaviours because the learnee just can't absorb anymore for a bit, this is known as a platuea. And that's OK. Or you go back down the stairs to the point of success when you hit a regression. That's OK too, because once you have trained a behaviour through a regression it usually means that the learnee REALLY understands what we want. Regressions should be expected and welcomed, they also make us as the trainer look at the methods we are using and what we can do to improve on our success. That is all natural, its the way of learning.
You should have reasonable expectations but not unrealistic expectations of what BOTH of you are learning at this time, on your own without instruction from educated eyes.

Now I would put your little girl on Nothing in Life is Free......google that and you'll find the example of it.
I would also put her on a feeding schedule, give her 15 mins to eat, if she doesn't put it up until the next meal, she'll figure out to eat when food is offered and quickly.
Next once she looks forward to her meals, I would ask for a simple behaviour like sitting, when she sits (quickly, slapping that little bum down) feed her some of her meal by hand. If she sits slowly, put the food up and walk away, saying Too bad, in a nice voice or nothing at all. Come back 10 mins later, ask for the sit, fast sit = handing her meal, one kibble at a time. Slow response = walk away again, this time staying away for 15 mins and so on.
You can absolutely use a clicker with this as well, but only clicking and rewarding for fast responses, personally I don't use a verbal command, I wait for the sit and c/r at a high rate, but it had better be fast sits

Try to train when you girl is hungry, just before a meal, you can always reduce the amounts in her meals if you use high quality food rewards.

 

[JoeLacy]

The video is just me demonstrating, her sit, wait, down, look and heel command as of yesterday. She does really well considering both our starting points at ZERO.

Great advice, I will do as you say. I really like the idea of fast sit or nothing. I'll relax, not set unrealistic expectations and be looking for a trainer to give me some advice when we get past the current plateau. She went so fast in the first two weeks I expected her to move even faster in the 3rd week. As long as we can both make a "little" progress each week, I'll be happy. Fact is, if she would act like she did in that video when we are out in public, she would be the near perfect dog for me. I keep looking at her and keep saying to myself "wow...what a dog".

I'm baking some treats today based on what you said about flavors and getting away for the salty hotdogs. It;s liver, eggs, salmon, sardines and garlic. No quail hearts could be found at the store. She had a taste of it already and her eyes went W-I-D-E open. "@@". I think I have her attention with this mix. If it's enough to refocus her, we'll see.

I gave her a small piece of raw turkey neck today, I don't think she has ever had a real bone because she couldn't figure out if it was a toy, or something to eat but is figuring it out. She's eats Innova puppy and is a house dog now, her "new" life is pretty good.

Thanks for weighing in...
Joe

BTW, here is the treat recipe:

6 eggs
1 1/3 cup olive oil
2 pound raw beef liver
2 4 oz cans sardines on soybean oil
1 15 oz can Salmon
4 cups flour
3 teaspoon garlic

Puree all meats and oils, then fold in flour, put 1/2" layer of this mixture on a baking dish and bake at 425* for 15 mins. Let cool then cut into bite sizes. Then freeze it to keep fresh and thaw when needed. Makes a zillion.

I did a side by side test 5 times, each time she ate this treat first then the hotdog.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I watched the video and have just a few comments:

First, I noticed that almost every time (or possibly every time, it's hard to tell for sure) you clicked, you either had a treat in your hand already or were digging for a treat in your pocket before you clicked. (Once you were handing her a treat before you clicked.) She's learning these physical cues much faster than she's learning what the clicker means, and if you continue this, she will learn not to do a behavior unless you have a treat in your hand, and your hand moving to your pocket means that her behavior is finished (same as the click). I spend a lot of time stressing the importance of this to my clients: Click... THEN treat. When you click your body should not be moving at all, so that the only thing your dog notices is the sound. AFTER you click, you can spend all the time you want to dig for the treat. And don't keep treats in your hand, they will become a bribe.

Also, frankly, she looks kinda bored. I think that's part of why she's loosing focus on you, because you're just not being very interesting. Plus it's pretty clear that she's more engaged with you at the beginning of the video than at the end, which also could mean that your session was too long. At this point in her training, if you want her focusing on you 100%, then you should be more interesting than the rest of your surroundings - if you're not, you can move to a less interesting place. As she gets better with the cues and you have a strong, long reinforcement history with the cues, you'll be able to tone yourself down and she'll still excitedly respond to your cues. And end your training sessions BEFORE she starts loosing focus (which was IMO just before the point where she wandered off, about 1:45 into the video; after that, her sits became very sloppy and she started lagging on everything).

Don't get me wrong, though, you both look really awesome, especially for not having had a trainer. But I think to take your training to the level that you seem to want it to be, you're really going to need someone watching you and giving you immediate feedback.

 

[JoeLacy]

The very reason I posted that was get to criticism. I do not know what I'm doing and want feedback desperately. It's easier to train the first time than re-train later. The only training I have had is Youtube. That's no excuse for me being inept and I GREATLY appreciate anyones feedback and welcome solid criticism like yours. You are the only person who has told me what I was doing incorrectly and made suggestions from watching me. How would I know if someone didn't say so? Thank you for taking the time.

I keep trying to get this trainer to call me back so we can set a date. I called her office again today. I may have to find another. These trainers are either super busy or not very professional. I am calling off that adpt site you or others suggested but can't seem to connect with a certified trainer. I'm trying to do the right thing, I'm just not sure what it is, sorta like Peyton. The proverbial, blind leading the blind here and I sincerely appreciate your feedback.

I will try another video tomorrow (weather permitting) and attempt to improve my timing and excitement level using your critique. I'm just a pup too and have more to learn than I currently know.

Having a treat in my hand was something they said on Youtube, so I could reward instantly. I will break that habit from now on and stand still, click, then reward for as long as it takes and keep the sessions shorter and more exciting. I'll have to really work to be more interesting than a squirrel though. Anybody renting a Squirrel suit? LOL

 

[lizzybeth727]

Holding a treat in your hand is a very common mistake among positive reinforcement trainers (I taught it myself a few years ago), but it also leads to one of the biggest criticsms of positive reinforcement training: "My dog won't do anything unless I show her a treat first." It's suprising how simple the "fix" is.

 

[adojrts]

You need to read these sites if your using a clicker, absolutely correct that by holding a treat in your hand leads to huge problems and is considered to be an error on the part of the trainer.

www.clickersolutions.com
www.clickertraining.com

Read them and learn the rules of clicker training, any method not done correctly will always have its problems and limited success.

 

[JoeLacy]

I saw an impressive sight tonight. I went to a group class. Maybe 100 dogs out in a open field. None of them were going nuts like mine. There were several class levels going on at the same time. Week 3 of beginners all the way up to show. All dogs were sitting, healing and minding their own business and listening to their owners. I spoke to one of the trainers and we took Peyton for a walk.

He said she would come around and would fit nicely. They don't do clicker or really advocate treat training. Many if not most of the dogs up until the advanced class were on chokers or prongs. I would have traded the behavior of any of those dogs including the 3rd week beginners over mine. Whatever they are doing, it looked like it was working to me. The next new class is in 14 days. This class is a real option.

 

[adojrts]

I would invite you to put on a choke or prong and have someone 'pop' you.
Why would you want to do that to your dog??

Just because you haven't had the success as FAST as you think it should come, especially considering with no knowledge of a method such as positive reinforcement training, doesn't mean it is wrong. The fact that you were using rewards in your hand was guaranteed to fail, so it wasn't the method.

And don't buy into the BS of 'we don't use treats and those positive trainers don't get results like we do'. Its bull, yep those methods that they use work, nobody ever said they don't but dog training has come a very long ways in recent years and those methods are considered to be out dated and can be very abusive.
Personally I wouldn't do that to my dogs.
I am far more impressed by seeing a large group of dogs beautifully trained and in complete control when positive methods have been used. And that happens quickly too, actually far quicker than those other methods when applied with education................

 

[lizzybeth727]

Many if not most of the dogs up until the advanced class were on chokers or prongs.

Are you saying that the beginner class dogs were on flat collars while the advanced dogs were on chokers or prongs?

This is a very important principle of dog training: Dogs do what works for them.

For example, if sitting gets them a treat, they'll do it. If the trainer doesn't use treats, why would the dog do the behavior? Maybe for praise - which is great if your dog likes praise, but many dogs won't work very hard if they know they're only getting praise out of it. Maybe they're only using toys - which is fine, except that many dogs aren't crazy about toys, and toys are kind of acward to use if you're trying to do repetitions.

Maybe they're not using anything to reward a dog, many trainers think dogs should work just for the sake of working and not expect anything in return. This is great, except dogs won't work this way. Dogs do what works for them. So instead, the trainer is teaching the dog that doing the behavior will let him avoid some punishment. If sitting means that they DON'T get pushed down, or they don't get a collar correction, they'll do it. It's a legitimate training method, just like positive reinforcement training, and can be very effective.

It all comes down to the method that you are comfortable using. Personally, I want my dogs to do behaviors because they think they'll get something good out of it, not because they're escaping something they don't like.

Please remember: You have been training one dog for two weeks. If you're not getting the results you are expecting yet, it's because your expectations are way too high, and you're not very experienced in the training method you're using. We have given you many tips here in only two weeks that have already improved your training, and we've never met you or seen your training in person. Imagine what a positive reinforcement trainer could do if they worked with you in person??

 

[JoeLacy]

I think it's pretty safe to say that ALL the dogs there were on correction collars or certainly were at one time as they went through the various training levels. It was an army of dogs under control in all breeds and sizes. Lined up shoulder to shoulder, all focusing on their owners not each other. Almost no barking, almost no pulling except for mine who wasn't even in the classes. The new treats did not refocus her, she was pulling like a Clydesdale, leaping like a gazelle and barking like a dog completely possessed. I was out there for 30 minutes or so and left exhausted. She ate dinner before we went, I walked her before we got in the car and played ball up and down the stairs for 30 minutes. I cannot seem to wear down this puppy to the point she is placid around other dogs.

When the trainer had Peyton on a leash, his suggestion was a prong collar AND a gentle leader at the same time. He said she was a bit of an extreme case. He also said he had been teaching for 36 years. If any of this is fact or fiction, right or wrong, old school, new age or what I have no clue, but one thing is clear, she was totally out of control as usual around other dogs and the other 100 or so dogs, were calm and going along with the program.

If you remember back in this thread, I said that I had hoped I would never have to use a prong collar and that is still my hope. My first choice is to be positive and will continue to seek out that solution. I will give that a try if I can get someone to return my phone calls but I reserve the right to look at other methods should this fail.

She's a real joy when she behaves and a real nightmare when she does not. As we walk around other dogs daily and meet other dogs nearly every single time I take her out to potty, this is a very high priority. This is not a stupid pet trick, this is something far more important.

You can blame it on me, on the dog, or on the Moon for all I care, but this unruly behavior must be stopped as soon as reasonably possible. Thankfully, it's not aggression but that does not lessen the burden of holding back this rutting Bull Moose without antlers. This may be a 30-40 lb dog, but it's a high energy, high drive, muscle bound maniac at these times.

It seems like a switch is flipped and she goes from being very calm to this raging bull intent to get her way regardless of the stress she puts on herself or others. She weaves in front pulling me to the point I almost trip or runs between my legs. Then she lunges, jumps up and faces me trying to pull out of her collar all the while barking and whining. One word " Relentless".

If somehow you got the impression that this was a mild passive puppy case, I evidently have not described her intensity. This behavior goes on until I remove her. It does not settle down EVER and goes on as long as there is another dog in proximity and even beyond.

Once I remove her, she's nice and calm again but even if the dog is out of sight, she still resists in the direction of the dog where it was last seen. She's fixated and unwielding until some period of time has passed, then she's perfectly calm and well behaved once again.

I'm open to positive training, but someone is going to have to show me even the faintest results with MY dog. Let me be perfectly clear, I do not expect overnight success. What I do expect is to see even the slightest improvement in a method so I can work towards a greater goal.

It's easy for you guys to say what you do, but you're not on the other end of my leash everyday. It ain't pretty when she's out of control and only a full grown man can hold her back and even I struggle with that sometimes.

A wise man said once, "If your child is doing a bad behavior, when would be a good time to correct it?" That's where I am today, sore arms and all. I'll keep calling these positive trainers today, but my results getting them to respond has NOT been positive and I've been a Tree for so long I have grown a root ball. "Some" self control "method" needs to be applied and today is better than tomorrow.

Look at her photo below, that's the way she is on a leash. :lol-sign:

 

[adojrts]

You have only had her for 3 wks, she is a puppy, it also sounds like she had no training and socializing and was probably locked up or tied in someones backyard etc.
It is completely reasonable that she is being over stimulated and reactive, especially considering the above.
The guy says that she is an extreme case, yeah thats apparent and we haven't even see her in person. That is why it was suggested that you obtain Control Unleashed, a awesome book for just these kinds of situations and dogs. To help you understand how you can fix the problem and quickly.

Yes, those of us that have been posting have been there, have dealt and trained pups/dogs with those kind of problems, many of us have worked with countless dogs/pups like this, over many years.

Interestingly enough most of us posting in response to your questions have also trained with the out dated methods and then became positive trainers.

Lizzy, your in Texas, help the OP find a good trainer, send them emails or call them. You must be part of a network of trainers in the Texas area that you can draw upon to help the OP.
To the OP, I will contact a trainer that I know in Okl. and see how they can recommend and put you in direct contact with, so that you get a response and some other options. Instead of looking up trainers on that other site, since it appears that isn't working for you.

 

[Doberluv]

What a shame it would be to squash such a dog's unbridled enthusiasm for life. Using punishment such as prong or choke collars will "tone" her down, all right, which sadly, is what most people want a dog to be....something she is not....a subdued, submissive, supressed animal.

Your dog is not so unique. Many people have high energy, unfocused dogs, out-of-control. I had one myself until last year when he died of cancer. He started out like that and transformed into a fantastic dog, who sadly, I lost at only age 4. He was the best trained dog I ever had. And light years ahead in importance, he was the dog closest to my heart, bonded like "crazy" glue, we were. I attribute that bond to teaching him with positive methods because I use to use more compulsive methods. And he was testimony to the vast improvement positive methods make.

If you take some time and learn the art of training instead of accepting the "quick" fix of subduing your dog, (nothing but a power struggle, working against her nature) you'll end up with a dog something like my Doberman. He went from something like you describe your dog as being to an exceedingly obedient, willing, push button dog who was quite advanced in his training. Everything he did, he did with great gusto. It was as if the things I asked of him were not "chores," but incredible joys to him. It could be the simpliest things. His no reward marker ("that's not it, try again" type thing) became a game, not a drudgery. If he went out to the end of his leash, sometimes forgetting himself and it was just about to get taut, I'd say in a baby-talk/playful, silly voice, "uh-oh" like you do with a toddler who just dropped something...and he'd not only come back by my side, but he'd leap back, taking several hops, bucking/twisting his whole body in a full way till he was at my side again like it was the funniest thing he ever heard, a great game. He was beyond glad to comply.

I'd so much like you to experience the same joy in your dog, rather than having a dog come back to heal because he has to or else. The body language and facial expressions in a dog trained with positive reinforcement are diametrically opposed to one trained with compulsive (do it or else/ show 'em who's boss) methods. The relationship and bond between owner and dog is unmatched. And the relationship is your very most important training tool.

Training doesn't happen over night, no matter what method you use. Harsh methods; pain, discomfort from these choking, poking collars don't allow the dog to change his own behavior by being involved, assists in training. They supress. There is a difference. Supressed behavior is just that and it often surfaces later. You get more regressions, more undesirabl side effects which pop up later and it's just not much fun for dog or owner.

I encourage you to read this short article. It's wonderful and really might have an affect on your perception of things and ultimately your dog.

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1721

 

[JoeLacy]

Thank you adjorts. I appreciate your as well as well as Lizzy.

This dog is important to me or I would not be spending this amount of time and effort. I want only the best for her and her being out of control is not healthy for anyone. How I get there, I admittedly have no clue and as a result I'm more than open to suggestions.

I have had good dogs in the past, but this dog was something special to me. She is the first dog that I have had that showed GREAT potential. I'm very enthused, perhaps overly so. Please don't confuse my eagerness with unrealistic expectations. I am eager to get started, I do not expect overnight results.

On a more personal note, this pup came along when my 8 year old Heeler passed away from Cancer. It was along drawn out battle he lost. I had him since he was just a pup, he was a great friend and a go everywhere, be everything kind of dog. I still feel his loss deeply. Some have said, I rescued this aussie, fact is, she rescued me from my grief and has allowed me to refocus and move on more easily. Right or wrong, I have vowed to give this pup the very best within my means and improve in many areas where I felt I was lacking with my Heeler. My Heeler can never be replaced and I'm dealing with that and this pup is helping. The pet Loss forum tells me to keep my mind busy and move on. I'm trying to do both and this pup is my focus and diversion right now.

My dogs spend a tremendous amount of time with me. I work from home and most of my days the dog is by my side. My dogs are all car dogs, they go even the the corner store, the Dry cleaners, the grocery, friends and family. The dog I bring into my life is part of my life in a very large way. I may do something stupid along the way, but my intent is always good, my commitment is solid and my heart is pure.

Peyton and I will sort all this out. She's not going anywhere, even if she never got over this behavior, I would deal with it. I don't give up on things that are important and her home is with me now and it's forever.

If I seem like I'm in a rush, I am. I am in a rush to get started down the right path. The time when the change happens is less important than the progress. If I just knew how to help her progress I would not be groping for answers the way I am. I'm a reasonable person and considered a GREAT father to my human children. I have even more patience for this puppy and I know that somewhere down the line progress will be made. What line I take is the question here and I'm anxious to find that line asap, so Peyton and I can get started. The method is the rush, not the outcome.

 

[JoeLacy]

Thank Carrie and that makes perfect sense. I do not want to break the spirit of this pup or her enthusiasm for life. I do not want to keep her from other dogs, I merely want her to understand that she meets them under my rules, not hers. That is where the disconnect is today. It is not her fault, but mine. I have not trained her what the rules are for meeting other dogs.

I also think this may be part of her being kept at the bottom of a well all her life. From her behavior, I am guessing she has never been allowed to play with other dogs. Because her instincts seem so strong to be social this has been repressed. This goes along with what you and that article was saying. Suppression brings out behaviors unwanted.

This pup wants to be happy and is a happy puppy. She just wants to play and play and play. I want that for her, but she can't pull me down the street to do it and I don't want to suppress this behavior, only to teach her self control. Unless I'm missing something, I think my goal for this behavior is reasonable.

Oh and let me say this too. You are exactly correct when you spoke about expression. I saw that last night, the dogs in that class looked like robots not happy dogs. I also noticed the tone of the owners. It was demanding and forceful not upbeat or positive. This seemed to be acceptable within the group and I wondered if this was the right way for me personally to be so harsh.