Mal Vs Dutchie

Discussion in 'The Dog Breeds' started by mrose_s, Oct 15, 2013.

  1. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    Thoughts? How do they differ?

    I'm starting to put some serious thought into nextdog and I have to say, I now know it won't be the BC I thought it would be. I know a lot of people I work with would facepalm if they watched me get something without the plan to train it to bite things. lol

    I always looked at Mal's as one of my "one day - when I know more" breeds and I had an interest in Schutzhund but again, as a "one day - when I know more" sport.
    That being said, I have my dream job I never thought I'd get. I get to work with an excellent trainer most days and have hands on experience with different dogs everyday, all while being critiqued on my handling and making sure I develop better habits.

    I've got to dabble with some bitework and scent work and over the next couple of years this will hopefully just be growing and growing to be more a part of the business I work for.

    So it made me rethink what the hell dog to get next. Ofcourse I secretly wanted a Mal, but I messed Quinn up so bad that the thought of doing it to a Mal terrified me. (That being said - I see where I went wrong and it would be quite incredible if I managed to make the same mistakes again)
    I thought I might play it easy(er?) with a GSD. I've met a lot of pet bred, anxious, whiny, needy, structurally compromised GSD's through work but I've also spent a lot of time around well bred, working dogs and I do like them. I just don't want to have to give my the agility and nimble-ity I have with Quinn.

    Nextdog is still at least 18 months off. I want Quinn to be atleast 5, I want more time to keep working on her issues. Plus I look at what I've learnt in the last year and think how much better a dog I raised today would be because of it. Then I think how much better that same dog will be if I wait a little longer.

    So for now I am leaning towards either a Mal or Dutchie. Temperament is of utmost importance to me as it will have to live with the little miss bitchface. Finding the right breeder and getting them to find me the perfect pup is going to be my main focus but I was just wondering what people that have had more experience with both breeds think.
     
  2. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    You're going to get my same old tired advice. Go and see the dogs. Over and over and over, go see dogs, go meet them, work them if you are able, bring someone with that can, watch them doing what you want to do with them. Meet them outside of training or working, watch them, see how they are hanging out and with their handlers and other people.

    Decide which are the kind of dogs you can live with, then find out where they got them from and get one from there.

    I've met my share of shitty shepherds, trust me, they're everywhere. Not sure what it's like in your country, but here crap out numbers good 100 to 1 easily. and when I say crap, it's crap to me, i'm sure somebody is loving these dogs but for working they don't cut it at all. But there are some seriously nice dogs out there to be had if you just look.

    Between Mal's, Shepherds and Dutchies there is such variation if you really want a "breed" then look for dogs you like in that breed. You'll find one. But between the 3 there is so much variation and all are very similar when considering just working dogs they overlap so much between just litters of the same breed let alone trying to compare across breeds.

    There aren't a ton of dutchies around and I've met a couple good ones and I've met plenty that didn't cut it either. Not as many as the shepherds I see, but then you don't have non working breeders breeding dutchies 100 to 1 like in shepherds so you don't get the same numbers, but trust me, there are dogs in that breed that are as bad as the worst shepherd you've ever met and people are breeding them to get more because they're dutchies.

    I worked a really very nice dutchie here, FR dog, awesome dog and this other woman had a female she was thinking of breeding and asked me my opinion of that male. Of course I liked him very much, it was her female that was a skittish nerve bag and didn't even have enough drive to get her thru that. and this woman has a good reputation among people on the internet. I thought the same till I saw the dogs.

    Mals are the same, some are large, some are small, some are very fine boned, some are thicker. Some have good nerves, a lot are very reactive, almost to the point I'd rather not even bother. They're lucky in that they have oozing drive so you can get them to overcome their lack of nerve with drive, but it's really a pain in the ass as far as I'm concerned. Some are very stable, not as reactive etc. Some really like more reactive, you might, i don't. That's why you must go see the dogs.

    I might think this dog is reactive, nervy and a real PITA, and describe it to you that way. You might see it and fall in love with it :) and call me a dumbass. Trust me, one person's aggressive is anothers fear bag. One persons calm, is anothers lazy. one person's "drive" is just hectic waste of energy to another. WHo's right? well that's in the eye of the beholder.

    Of course when you're out seeing dogs you're making friends and you see who has similar interests or at least see how they describe dogs and how it jives with what you see. Then you can better get an idea of what exactly they're trying to describe in their dogs.

    Is my rambling making sense? so long story short, the dogs are too similar between Dutch, mal, working shepherd to gain any real information on breed alone and among litters of the same breed there will be many differences too, so find the type you like whatever breed it is.
     
  3. FG167

    FG167 New Member

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    I'm going to agree with RTH about meeting the breeds.

    I started in shepherds with a Dutchie, I now have a GSD, and I work with a TON of Mals every single day (meaning, I train/handle these dogs).

    These will be my personal broad generalizations so 1. no offense to any other breed, but obviously, I am a GSD person ;) and 2. what I like/dislike, does NOT mean you will in any way agree.

    The reasons I went from DS/Mal to GSD was purely because of better nerves in the GSD breed as a whole compared to the others as a whole. My personal experience. My DS was a nerve bag in any social/public situation (he was rock solid environmentally), he would bite out of fear and aggression (depending on what was happening), and he rarely settled/slept. I taught a forced settle command to make him at least fake being calm and quiet. He was sold after he bit my little cousin in the stomach unprovoked. I had originally bought him asking for a SAR dog (wilderness) and an agility dog. He would have made a FABULOUS detection dog and actually went on to be a personal protection dog.

    One of the things I did NOT want to sacrifice was speed and athleticism...and I did not. I got a nice, moderate, working line GSD that is wicked fast, crazy athletic, and has the drive to match any Mal/Dutchie I have ever seen/met. The things I like so much better in him vs the DS I had and many Mals I know: he's pretty rock solid in temperament/nerve - he can go, see, do absolutely anything I have put to him (we travel extensively and he also trials/trialed in a myriad of sports), he is my cuddle bug, my sleep at the foot of the bed dog. He gets along with most other dogs and is good with the cats. He is fine with children and all people he's ever met.

    That being said, when I sent my "want" list to my breeder - I actually told him that I wanted the drive/speed/athleticism of my Dutchie in a better nerved body. SO Kastle's drive can be a hindrance as well - he clacks (air snaps his teeth when in drive), he screams, he spins, he nips, he jumps, he does every annoying leak-y drive thing EVAR. He still performs extremely well. BUT, my DS was silent when he was working. He was all about the screaming/vocalizing when free/running, but he tended to lock down tight when in drive. In my experience, the Mals at work are much the same. We also have a handful of working line sheppies at work, they all leak drive or demand bark. GSDs are loud.

    Working line GSDs are almost an entirely different breed than showlines, so if you like that look, the drive is...different.

    Just to muddy the waters some more - I have met some really fantastic Mals in IPO (and at work). Dogs I would probably bring home if they were needing a place. The temperament/drive/working ethics differences between them and Kas were so small as to be almost nilch. However, I'm gun shy with Mals/DS now and am way too worried to get a puppy to grow up. Steele is one of the best Mals I have ever had the privilege to meet. His drive, personality, temperament, just his entire demeanor are...just amazing. I can't say enough glowing things about that dog. He just makes my heart swell. So does Kas though :)

    My personal moral: Awesome Mals and awesome GSDs are out there and relatively easy to find vs the difficulty of finding a really nice DS. In my experience. And nice = sporty with good nerve (for me).
     
  4. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Both of those posts are great, even if they are shepherd owners. :rofl1:

    I love my malinois, through and through, without a doubt.

    I also know their quirks, I love their quirks, and I know the variety within.

    I choose my malinois on their ability for versatility, imo it doesn't get any better. That being said I would happily own the right GSD. I also follow a few dutch kennels with interest.

    Meet the dogs, pick a dog you like, meet his line, use that as your guide for purchasing.

    We're so unhelpful.
     
  5. SizzleDog

    SizzleDog Lord Cynical

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    I don't have any of the breeds mentioned, but I'll chime in and say I agree with everything that has been said. I think meeting, watching, studying, and getting to know the people in ANY breed is a good idea.

    If all goes well, I'm getting a dog in 2015. I've been studying them on and off for nearly 13 years, and I think I'm finally ready to take the plunge. I'm glad I've waited this long, and I'm glad I've gotten the chance to really get "in the thick" of the breed for the last few years before making my decision.

    Good advice, no matter which breed you decide on. :)
     
  6. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I suppose thats the answer I knew I would get. lol. And I wouldn't decide on my next dog purely over the internet. If there is one thing I've learned in the last year it's that you don't get to see a lot of little breed traits until you actually spend time with the dogs.

    For this reason - Rotti's have been all but struck from the "one day" list. They are lovely but their aloof character isn't gonna suit me. Even if they are awesome cuddlers.

    I have seen GSD's that would be too much dog to try to put into a house with Quinn, I have seen a Mal apparently unsuitable to a pet home with zero defence drive, some prey and no interest in gripping the tug.

    I have yet to meet one Dutchie but I know that they only recently began importing them so they are so far, hopefully not too overbred. There is a local security company that breeds them, I will probably contact them and see if I can meet their dogs.

    I did decide I would probably just have to look for the right breeder with the right litter to pick me the right dog.

    For a start it has to live with Quinn. She's not an easy dog to live with by any degree.
    I also will still be regularly instructing pet obedience classes and I need a dog I can take out with me to demo with. Quinn can't do that because of her DR.
    I would ideally like to be able to use him to help rehab DA dogs. We rely heavily on my trainers GSD because he's just so dam stable. (Quinn tolerates him now but still doesn't like him - go figure)
    And I want a dog I can just take absolutely anywhere with me and not be concerned about a kid running up to it, a dog approaching, a weird sound being heard etc.

    One GSD trait that might drive me batcrap insane.... the WHINEYNESS!!!!! OMG! we have a lot of anxious, poorly bred GSD's come through but even my trainers dogs do it.
    I will say - the 3 dogs I've met from the breeder I would likely get a GSD from... I have heard no whines.

    I can deal with quirks. I love Quinn's quirks. But I would give anything to have her puppyhood again.
     
  7. GatorDog

    GatorDog Member

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    I'm just going to repeat what has already been said, basically. I'm a GSD person and I believe that I am a GSD person for a reason. I've been involved in Schutzhund for 4 and a half years now and I've met plenty of Mals and a handful of Dutchies. I was leaning towards a Mal before adding my next dog, but decided that I couldn't find one whos temperament/drive suited what I want and also had the nerve stability (both socially and environmentally) that I needed. Then I got Carm and she was everything that I ever wanted anyways, so it worked out perfectly.

    Not sure about the "aloof" thing with the Rotties. You would prefer not to have an aloof dog? GSD's can be very aloof generally, so just wondering. Not sure what the generalization is for Mals since I've seen some aloof dogs and some that just want to climb into anyone's lap lol. And I've seen plenty of both that would rather **** themselves and blow their anal glands than get anywhere near strange people.

    I would find a few working dog clubs that you could get to and take a look at the dogs there. Even if you don't plan on working, it is where you will be able to find a collective group of the types of dogs that you are interested in.

    For the record, none of my dogs (bf's GSD included) whine excessively. It's just something that I don't tolerate, so it's not a problem here. :)
     
  8. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Malinois as a general rule are far less aloof than GSD but Malinois as a general rule are far more reactive and their prey drive can easily be problematic. Running things are exciting, many lines are not drastically unlike border collies (with teeth). So, that being said read your lines carefully.

    I use my dogs as demos in classes occasionally but I can't pass them off and I can't take one eye off them in some situations, for safety sake. I have plenty of "whoops" stories of stable Malinois doing stupid things (one ran down a puppy when he broke away in a recall game, one bit a student when they crowded him), they are tricky dogs and while they can be absolutely awesome dogs they aren't born bomb proof and when you see an impressively controlled Malinois chances are a lot of work went into that.

    I merely mean when you want the intensity you walk a tight rope of impulse control issues such as reactivity and leaking drive, it just takes work to channel these behaviors and many mals are just never suited for certain public access lifestyles. Just research the breeding and when you have specific demands a line bred dog from a repeat breeding will be your best chance at guaranteeing what you're seeking.

    Also, what works for a security company is often far from what will be ideal as a pet and sport dog. I say this having worked as a kennel hand for a security dog training/breeding facility and having seen a lot of dogs sold to security companies when they were not the ideal fit for sport.

    What draws you to the Dutch?

    As for noise all three breeds are noisy, individuals are quieter and sometimes that can pose its own difficulties in bitesport.

    Edited many times and this last time to say, I'm sure you'll love and kick ass with one from any breed, they really all can be comparable depending on their breedings.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2013
  9. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    What draws me to dutchies? Pretty much just that they are comparable to the other 2 breeds.

    I always prefer a dog that is more reserved with strangers but all I really mean by that is a dog that doesn't look at every new person like a koolie or a lab does.
    Quinn is ideal now, she adores all the people she knows but has no interest in anyone until she's met them a few times.

    It is difficult to see many working clubs, the nearest decent one is a 2 hour drive away and they train when I work.
    I should however in the next couple of years be getting more in loved with some Mal's during work.
    I do recognise they might not fit into the life I need my next dog to lead, and I'm sure one day I'll be happy to work around a dog more if needed but for nextdog I just need a chance to have a dog that's... Easy. Well compared to Quinnie anyway.
     
  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    If you're careful you can find a pretty close bet to what you want.

    I think people are just trying to impress the importance of seeking a particular line or even further a particular breeding (which you can study online, I haven't met Phelans parents), as opposed to a certain breed, especially with shepherds.

    The reason being is within shepherds, be it dutch, mal, or german, people are breeding for IPO, FR, MR, KNPV, NVBK, PSA, and then outside of bitesports: Security work, PPD, Estate guardians, Agility, Kennel Club Obed, Herding, Detection, pets, and the list goes on.

    I'd outline what you want from a dog, what you plan to do with it, and then start looking at breeders of all three breeds online and consider shipping from over seas if you're not finding what you want over there.
     
  11. Hillside

    Hillside Original Twin

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    ^What she said.

    I like it when Adrianne gets to a thread before me, then I don't have to post anything. :rofl1:
     
  12. Maliraptor

    Maliraptor Bite me.

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    I also agree with Adrienne. I love my malinois. I have certain bloodlines for certain traits I want. Would they be great for what Adrienne wants? Maybe not. We've discussed it before in fact.

    I've owned two Dutch Shepherds. One was an xDS from knpv lines. He was a super pup and I regretting having to sell him but he went to a police dept to be a narcotics dog. He was not dual purpose only because they did not need a dual purpose dog at that point.

    The other was an fci bred boy. He was the exact opposite of my first one, and lacked prey drive. He was so edgy he could not hold an IPO grip. His brother is a FR titles dog but the handler admits he was not an easy train.

    Point is, learn. Visit. Watch. Admit honestly what you want. What matters and what does not matter as much. Then find that. In either breed.
     
  13. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    I have always wanted a Dutchie. Not so much now. Lol. I was always on the fence about if I would make a Mal owner or not. Apparently not.

    However this thread needs more pictures.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    [​IMG]

    I want you to know just how serious these dogs are.

    :p
     
  15. stardogs

    stardogs Behavior Nerd

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    I don't know that I'd consider Mals or Dutchies likely to be 'easy', even in your use of the word, nor many lines of working GSDs. There is just soooooo much variety between lines and so much difference in how people describe these dogs. One person's 'defense' is another person's 'civil', which is yet another person's 'fight' for example!

    My example for your consideration:
    I consider Aeri a stable mal with moderate drives (in the working sense, most would consider her quite high compared to a pet dog). She couldn't be out in public for more than 15 minutes straight without going into overarousal grabbiness (think torn shirts, bruises, but not aggression) until she was about a year old and at 3 she's just now starting to truly control her grabbiness on her own without my guidance when she gets overexcited or confused/frustrated.

    She HAS worked with reactive dogs, but she requires a LOT more clarity in handling than any of the other dogs in that setting and I only bring her out to challenge dogs who have done fine with the rest of the crew because her way of interacting with me really seems to stimulate reactive dogs (she's very fast moving and intense - nothing is done slowly/calmly. ever.).

    Obviously she's just one dog out of many in the breed, but she's considered a 'starter mal', so I do mention our challenges with that in mind. Se's taught me so, so, so much, but she is not an 'easy' dog in training.
     
  16. Equinox

    Equinox Active Member

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    I think owning a Malinois or a Dutch Shepherd would just be a different kind of learning curve. If you don't already have hand on experience raising one, it could mean having to familiarize yourself and dealing with quirks and issues that never even came up with Quinn.

    I do see Mals and Dutchies as "easy" to train in context of training for competitive obedience, performance, or protection sport (as opposed to, say, a dog like Trent who just doesn't have the same upbeat enthusiasm). But easy dogs to live with and integrate into a lifestyle? They're not the first breeds to come to mind. My impression of Mals is that they are reactive dogs - I don't mean dog/human/prey reactive, but rather the dictionary definition of the word. Rapidly responsive, I guess? Especially from what Adrienne and stardogs have said about their experience with Mals in every day situations.

    For what it's worth, every Rottweiler I've met has been a huge love bug. Full body wags and slobbering galore. German Shepherds are typically more aloof, especially as they get older. Trent goes back and forth on this - sometimes he cannot care less about the strangers he meets, and other times he is soliciting kisses and head pats left and right. He definitely is a whiner, and from what I've heard his siblings and parents are all fairly vocal dogs.

    But the nice thing about the variety within a breed or type is that you can usually find what you are looking for with the right amount of research. That goes for all the breeds you mentioned - so good luck :D
     
  17. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Honestly, it sounds to me like there's two very separate needs here. A dog for sport and a dog to do reactive dog work. While I could and have used a couple of my Belgians for reactive dog work on rare occasions and one of my three GSDs could have been used for it in certain circumstances, I would very much worry about doing that on a regular with either breed. Or a Dutchie. Jagger was great to use with leash reactive bitches because as a boy Belgian his reaction to mean girls will always be "awww you don't mean it...". However, a large reactive male dog would have been an entirely different story. Whim doesn't want any trouble and can be good with reactive dogs but I strongly suspect if that was part of her every day life, it would make her reactive over time. My other girl Belgians would all take offense to dogs getting too snarky with them. And Roust is too naturally reactive to strange dogs reacting to ever consider that. I have worked a lot with him to teach him that he is not to react just because someone else does. Jora, my very working temperament GSD was very same sex aggressive with other bitches in the household but very tolerant of dogs outside of the family. Still, if a big dog really came at her, she would want have wanted to fight. She'd have listened to me and not reacted on that but she really would have wanted to. The other two GSDs - no way, they were both prone to being reactive as it was.

    As a sometimes breeder, I'd be very hesitant to sell a puppy to someone who wanted to use the dog regularly for reactive dog training. You really can't always tell how a puppy will feel about other dogs as an adult. And IME these breeds are very malleable and already prone to being reactive towards other dogs, so repeated exposure to reactive dogs could bring out the worse in them.

    The other stuff, you could probably find a dog of any of the breeds to suit you. And some behavior is obviously a matter of what the owner chooses to allow or not. You don't have to allow your dog to bite you or rip your clothes on a regular basis just because you have a "working dog". For me, people can be a bit too permissive with their young working dogs, worrying about decreasing their drive if they enforce manners. If manners ruin your dog for sport, the dog probably wasn't all that well suited to begin with.
     
  18. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I have known and followed Erin's training all along and she never actively encouraged nor allowed the clothes tearing in an effort to safeguard Aeris drives. Just like I never allow Sloan to flair up over running dogs but it doesn't mean it I easy to manage nor does it go away.

    Otherwise, I agree, and I actually worry for dogs being used regularly in reactor dog classes, I think it would definitely wear on a shepherd type breed.
     
  19. Red Chrome

    Red Chrome New Member

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    For what it's worth, out of 16 GSDs that I regularly interact with and know well, I'd say not one of them would be good for reactive dogs. I think some would start that way but then get snarky later.

    And... I have been redirecting Rasta whenever he grabs my clothes or me....but it's going to take a lot of redirecting and rewarding and there is no end in sight for it. And it obviously hasn't been encouraged since he is 7 weeks.
     
  20. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    I guess I missed where anyone was hoping to use the dog as the teaching dog for a reactive dog class.

    I've never met a Belgian Shepherd (any type) that I would point at as an appropriate candidate for that sort of job. I've met quite a few, mostly Groens and Mals, that might benefit from being a student in such a class.
     

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