Luke is growling when in crate with frozen kong
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Wow! Awesome! Now, will you order a few new ones for me? You seem to be rolling in dough and I neeeeeeeeeeeeed more books. I deserrrrrrrve more books. And right now, I'm under priveledged. I neeeeeeeeed more books.
Hey, cool! I think you should read Culture Clash first because she'll really lay it all out...the basics. Then you can apply and incorporate that to the next ones. (just my thoughts) You are so smart to buy these books.
Hey, cool! I think you should read Culture Clash first because she'll really lay it all out...the basics. Then you can apply and incorporate that to the next ones. (just my thoughts) You are so smart to buy these books.
I know what you mean Renee. Sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do at the time. I've had plenty of occassions in the past where I told a dog, "Hey! Quit!" (to take care of an urgent situation at hand) But then I knew I had to go back to square one and work on showing the dog that whatever it is he had his "panties in a twist" (I hate that expression) is really nothing more than a figment of his imagination. LOL. They're so easy to brainwash.:rofl1:
And you're so right. The individual dog has to be taken into consideration. However....(you knew that was going to come out of my mouth, didn't you) dogs are still animals and they're all the same species with similar tendencies, stemming from instincts that they all have to one degree or another. And history shows us that there are certain things we do, where there are odds that work in or against our favor and certain outcomes that are very typical. Some of them are almost predictable. But it's really hard to know exactly just how any dog will be affected because they're not really static ever. They may have had a rotten day and are stressed out to the hilt and what might not have riled them up one day, does that day. (just like with us) So that's why my stance is to err on the side of caution. But I can tell from your posts AND from the fact that you have filas, (lol) that you understand them and instinctively know how to balance them out just so.
) is really nothing more than a figment of his imagination. LOL. They're so easy to brainwash.:rofl1:And you're so right. The individual dog has to be taken into consideration. However....(you knew that was going to come out of my mouth, didn't you) dogs are still animals and they're all the same species with similar tendencies, stemming from instincts that they all have to one degree or another. And history shows us that there are certain things we do, where there are odds that work in or against our favor and certain outcomes that are very typical. Some of them are almost predictable. But it's really hard to know exactly just how any dog will be affected because they're not really static ever. They may have had a rotten day and are stressed out to the hilt and what might not have riled them up one day, does that day. (just like with us) So that's why my stance is to err on the side of caution. But I can tell from your posts AND from the fact that you have filas, (lol) that you understand them and instinctively know how to balance them out just so.
I have learned so much from them, and it's turned much of what I thought I knew -- what worked with other dogs -- inside out. It's also changed the way I work with my other dogs and brought me closer to them.
Cleo . . . Now there was a gut check, lol! Working with Cleo and seeing her go from a scared, defensive, confused, hurt -- and dangerous -- creature to being able to watch her confidence grow by leaps and bounds, as well as seeing her affectionate nature explode, to see her trust, play, and against all odds, I think she really did believe and understand that she was going to her true home when she left me, by her reactions that Linda described when she got there. Cleo erased any shadows of doubt I had that there is a deeper understanding than we have been prepared to acknowledge.
I would love to spend time with Doc, working with Filas. If anyone could work with them successfully, she could.
When I say "brain wash," that does not mean be dishonest. It means do things in such a way that the dog changes his own mind about something. Ie: motivation and reinforcement. Filas may be harder in many ways. There are also other breeds that are different and not as easy to deal with. But they're still domestic dogs...still the same species and there are still basic truths in how they learn. I have no doubt that there are variations in how they're handled etc or different things that motivate them. But I don't believe they are a completely different animal.
I agree and have no doubt that dogs understand more than we give them credit for. But it's important to have a good idea of just what it is that they likely understand and not assume things that are really random guessing. They usually show us.
I agree and have no doubt that dogs understand more than we give them credit for. But it's important to have a good idea of just what it is that they likely understand and not assume things that are really random guessing. They usually show us.
All of those books are AMAZING... there is only so much you can learn online and by talking to people. Having books give you so much more of a deeper insight. It makes it easier to figure out what works for your dogs and gives you way more confidence.
Karen Pryor and Emma Parsons are two of my other favorite authors.
Even if Luke is only guardy in his crate with Kongs right now, he's still a puppy and figuring things out... if can't hurt to really work on the issue at it's core, which is probably insecurity in general. Who knows what he went through before he came to you? He's probably amazed and shocked at all of the good stuff and love that he gets.
Personally, I wouldn't keep their crates right next to each other. That could contribute to stressing in his crate, even if it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with Ophie. But that's JMO.
Karen Pryor and Emma Parsons are two of my other favorite authors.
Even if Luke is only guardy in his crate with Kongs right now, he's still a puppy and figuring things out... if can't hurt to really work on the issue at it's core, which is probably insecurity in general. Who knows what he went through before he came to you? He's probably amazed and shocked at all of the good stuff and love that he gets.
Personally, I wouldn't keep their crates right next to each other. That could contribute to stressing in his crate, even if it doesn't seem like it has anything to do with Ophie. But that's JMO.
I agree with this... it's so true! SO many people tell me that Huskies/Hounds/insert breed are impossible to train, their dog doesn't learn like other dogs, etc. If they had met Fozzie when he was a puppy, they would probably say the same about him. He is naturally super headstrong and independent, I've never met a puppy who tested me so much. But the bottom line is; all animals do what is rewarding to them. CC is always at work, whether you realize it or not.
I'm not saying that Filas aren't super intelligent, unique, amazing dogs. And that you were right to not reinforce or allow pushy behavior from Cleo... you taught her that being a brat is not going to get rewarded, probably for the first time in her life.
I'm not saying that Filas aren't super intelligent, unique, amazing dogs. And that you were right to not reinforce or allow pushy behavior from Cleo... you taught her that being a brat is not going to get rewarded, probably for the first time in her life.
Hey!!
I am most certainly NOT rolling in dough.
All three books were relatively affordable, and my husband was placing an order with amazon anyway, AND if something is informative and can help me build a better relationship with my dogs, and have a better understanding of my dogs, it's worth the money spent.
I probably could have gotten them even cheaper had I bought them from a used book site, but those come from individuals who usually ship media mail and they take FOREVER to get here. I could have bought it from my local dog store (maybe), but it would have cost more than what I bought them for from amazon.
But I am not rolling in dough, believe me!!!!:lol-sign:
I am most certainly NOT rolling in dough.
All three books were relatively affordable, and my husband was placing an order with amazon anyway, AND if something is informative and can help me build a better relationship with my dogs, and have a better understanding of my dogs, it's worth the money spent.
I probably could have gotten them even cheaper had I bought them from a used book site, but those come from individuals who usually ship media mail and they take FOREVER to get here. I could have bought it from my local dog store (maybe), but it would have cost more than what I bought them for from amazon.
But I am not rolling in dough, believe me!!!!:lol-sign:
LOL! I don't like used books that well. You never know what people had on their hands when they touched those pages.....boogers, e-coli, food. So, you done good. Hahaha. Nice new books...yes, they're a very good investment. The education you get can't be substituted by anything else. So, even if you're not rolling in dough, you'll be rolling in something that will pay you back many times over. (You know I was just kidding, I hope. )
So, you done good. Hahaha. Nice new books...yes, they're a very good investment. The education you get can't be substituted by anything else. So, even if you're not rolling in dough, you'll be rolling in something that will pay you back many times over. (You know I was just kidding, I hope. )
LOL! I don't like used books that well. You never know what people had on their hands when they touched those pages.....boogers, e-coli, food. So, you done good. Hahaha. Nice new books...yes, they're a very good investment. The education you get can't be substituted by anything else. So, even if you're not rolling in dough, you'll be rolling in something that will pay you back many times over. (You know I was just kidding, I hope. )
So, you done good. Hahaha. Nice new books...yes, they're a very good investment. The education you get can't be substituted by anything else. So, even if you're not rolling in dough, you'll be rolling in something that will pay you back many times over. (You know I was just kidding, I hope. )
And they just don't get it. It's not like that at all. And my mom treats me that way. When the truth is, we spend our money very carefully, and sure there are times that I might buy things that aren't something that I need or want more than anything in the world, but those times are few and far between.
I typically try to be smart with my purchases.
And when it comes to my animals, yes, I do get a bit indulgent sometimes.
But as you said, these books will help me gain a knowledge and understanding that I didn't have before. And at least one of the books directly pertains to the situation I am dealing with with Luke. And I actually feel I need that book.
These are some very good points, I think. And he is still young. Confidence comes with age and a little help from us. On the other hand, if he likes and is used to Opie, sometimes having another dog near by does help a dog feel secure...unless he's afraid Opie will take his stuff. It's hard to say, but you could experiment and see if it makes a difference.
Luke is now resource guarding OUTSIDE of the crate.
I thought I'd try giving him a bone in the office as I worked.
I left the office after giving him the bone, came back, sat down at my desk, he looked at me sideways and growled at me.
I traded him some tasty ziwi-peak dog food crack for his bone.
Took the bone and put it up.
I put in another call to my trainer/behaviorist. Only this time, I actually went into full detail as to what is occurring.
I thought I'd try giving him a bone in the office as I worked.
I left the office after giving him the bone, came back, sat down at my desk, he looked at me sideways and growled at me.
I traded him some tasty ziwi-peak dog food crack for his bone.
Took the bone and put it up.
I put in another call to my trainer/behaviorist. Only this time, I actually went into full detail as to what is occurring.
What did your trainer say?
If it makes you feel any better, Tallulah went through a teenage bratty stage where she tried pushing the envelope to see how far she could go She was a bit older than Luke is, but she'd spent so many months kenneled that she had some catching up to do. She thought she might try getting by with that business.
We had a little conversation about what would not be tolerated, followed by make-up treats, then some practice with me taking things out of her mouth, acting like I was examining them, then giving them back to her with a lot of lavish "good girl!" praise and scritches. I never just dropped the item on the floor; she either had to take it from my hand, after sitting down (show me your manners, lol), making eye contact with me and waiting until I told her it was hers, or she had to show me her manners while I set a dish down for her.
If it makes you feel any better, Tallulah went through a teenage bratty stage where she tried pushing the envelope to see how far she could go
She was a bit older than Luke is, but she'd spent so many months kenneled that she had some catching up to do. She thought she might try getting by with that business.We had a little conversation about what would not be tolerated, followed by make-up treats, then some practice with me taking things out of her mouth, acting like I was examining them, then giving them back to her with a lot of lavish "good girl!" praise and scritches. I never just dropped the item on the floor; she either had to take it from my hand, after sitting down (show me your manners, lol), making eye contact with me and waiting until I told her it was hers, or she had to show me her manners while I set a dish down for her.
I recommend not giving her high value things like bones for a while, until you go through the process of conditioning her.
Until you get your books, this should explain some things more thoroughly than I did.
Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle |
Until you get your books, this should explain some things more thoroughly than I did.
Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Training, Seattle | Dog and Puppy Tips from Seattle |
Doberluv-
I will read that article in a second.
My trainer/behaviorist called me back.
She really didn't tell me anything you guys haven't already told me.
She just said that until I get the book (which, I guess, is the BIBLE for handling resource guarding), NO HIGH VALUE ITEMS EVER. And to feed by hand. And then once he's ok with doing that, try putting my hand in his food dish with the food IN MY HAND. And if I'm not comfortable with that, to try simply having the food in one hand, and the bowl in the other, and then resting the food hand on the edge of the bowl, while I'm holding it.
But no bones, no kongs, nothing he deems high value, in his crate or out of his crate.
She's dealt with resource guarding with clients' dogs and with her OWN dog, and she swore after she worked with her own dog on it, that any dog after, would learn the "Trade Game" before EVER receiving anything of high value.
She's going to check her schedule book, and if she has time tomorrow, she's going to come over to witness the behavior herself to assess where she thinks he's at (how big of a problem she believes it will be).
And she's going to copy a few pages of the protocol from the book so that I can have something to work with while waiting for my book to arrive.
I will read that article in a second.
My trainer/behaviorist called me back.
She really didn't tell me anything you guys haven't already told me.
She just said that until I get the book (which, I guess, is the BIBLE for handling resource guarding), NO HIGH VALUE ITEMS EVER. And to feed by hand. And then once he's ok with doing that, try putting my hand in his food dish with the food IN MY HAND. And if I'm not comfortable with that, to try simply having the food in one hand, and the bowl in the other, and then resting the food hand on the edge of the bowl, while I'm holding it.
But no bones, no kongs, nothing he deems high value, in his crate or out of his crate.
She's dealt with resource guarding with clients' dogs and with her OWN dog, and she swore after she worked with her own dog on it, that any dog after, would learn the "Trade Game" before EVER receiving anything of high value.
She's going to check her schedule book, and if she has time tomorrow, she's going to come over to witness the behavior herself to assess where she thinks he's at (how big of a problem she believes it will be).
And she's going to copy a few pages of the protocol from the book so that I can have something to work with while waiting for my book to arrive.
Sounds like she and I are on the same page. I may explain in more detail with a few extra steps thrown in, but basically, it sounds like you're on the way. Hand feed like she explains. I'd even go one step further by measuring out his ration and using small handfuls during the day as reinforcers for behaviors you ask for. Make him earn it. LOL.
Later, down the road, after he's gotten the idea that only through you, do good things come and contingent on his behavior.... try an EMPTY bowl on your lap, use a variety of bowls, not his usual one, mix 'em up.... but keep your hand on it. The minute you relinquish it, it's his by dog social rules. And that's what we have to go with. You can hold it on your lap with both hands on it. Take food in your hand from the table or counter top, from another container. Add a small handful to the empty bowl. Keep your one hand on the bowl. Repeat.
When he's seeing that you provide all good things, getting into the flow of things, you can advance to putting the bowl on the floor. (still, various bowls, various locations) Be unpredictable. (don't rush...this is way down the road)Re-read my post....how to drop food in, walk away when he's done, come back, drop another handful, wait till he's just finished his last bite, walk away, come back, repeat. He'll learn that your approaching his bowl means fantastic news. You bring the food and special goodies as well. But this is only after you've worked with the hand feeding for some time. If you do not feel safe at any point doing these things, don't. Wait for guidance.
You can also do the give and take game, but use lower value toys until he's ready to move up. Keep the traded items proportionate and better than what he has. Move up in a graduated way with both his item and the thing you're trading him for. Never high value stuff until he's completely over this and "re-conditioned." (I think I talked about that give and take in one of my posts...can't remember now, too lazy to go look) LOL.
I'm glad you've got a good trainer to help you, in person. I have high hopes for Luke. This kind of thing can be turned around, usually quite well.
Later, down the road, after he's gotten the idea that only through you, do good things come and contingent on his behavior.... try an EMPTY bowl on your lap, use a variety of bowls, not his usual one, mix 'em up.... but keep your hand on it. The minute you relinquish it, it's his by dog social rules. And that's what we have to go with. You can hold it on your lap with both hands on it. Take food in your hand from the table or counter top, from another container. Add a small handful to the empty bowl. Keep your one hand on the bowl. Repeat.
When he's seeing that you provide all good things, getting into the flow of things, you can advance to putting the bowl on the floor. (still, various bowls, various locations) Be unpredictable. (don't rush...this is way down the road)Re-read my post....how to drop food in, walk away when he's done, come back, drop another handful, wait till he's just finished his last bite, walk away, come back, repeat. He'll learn that your approaching his bowl means fantastic news. You bring the food and special goodies as well. But this is only after you've worked with the hand feeding for some time. If you do not feel safe at any point doing these things, don't. Wait for guidance.
You can also do the give and take game, but use lower value toys until he's ready to move up. Keep the traded items proportionate and better than what he has. Move up in a graduated way with both his item and the thing you're trading him for. Never high value stuff until he's completely over this and "re-conditioned." (I think I talked about that give and take in one of my posts...can't remember now, too lazy to go look) LOL.
I'm glad you've got a good trainer to help you, in person. I have high hopes for Luke. This kind of thing can be turned around, usually quite well.
Well, she also made sure to tell me that I have to follow the protocol EXACTLY, because if I slack AT ALL, it won't work.
And she said that she's only seen one time, out of all the times she's dealt with this, one dog where the owner did the protocol exactly, and it didn't work.
She doesn't make light of resource guarding. It probably has everything to do with the fact that her dog was a resource guarder, and she knows it's not something to take lightly.
I just had this gut feeling it would progress to outside of the crate.
It was the same gut feeling I had when I wondered if it was ME he was growling at, not Ophie.
And she said that she's only seen one time, out of all the times she's dealt with this, one dog where the owner did the protocol exactly, and it didn't work.
She doesn't make light of resource guarding. It probably has everything to do with the fact that her dog was a resource guarder, and she knows it's not something to take lightly.
I just had this gut feeling it would progress to outside of the crate.
It was the same gut feeling I had when I wondered if it was ME he was growling at, not Ophie.
No, it's definitely not something to take lightly. But I've seen some real successes with some of my clients' dogs. This can vary greatly in intensity. Some of the milder cases are easier to deal with and rehab. Some of the severe cases don't have as good a prognosis. And it is true that everything must be done in correct increments, graduated steps and never moving ahead to the next step until you have a period of success at a previous level. I forget what you said...how long has this been going on?
Does he play "retrieve"...like with a stick or ball? This can also be part of the give and take game. Remember, when you play the game and you ask him to give you a rather low value toy, you're holding out a higher value treat to trade him. (not extremely high. You want to save that for later when you graduate up the hierarchy of valued items.)But something he'll definitely rather have. Then after he eats the treat, you give him back his toy. Do it a few times and then let him keep his toy. Do it 3 or 4 times a day for a few reps. Use this same valued stuff for several days before you inch up to something he likes a little better than that toy, but not too high value. Come up with a treat or toy he would surely like better than what you had before. Show him it first. (Later, you should get to a point where you don't have to show him first. (because that is bribing.) However, it will likely keep you safer for him to see and smell the tasty treat. Just before you hold your other hand under his chin for him to drop the toy into, hold the treat near his nose and let him nibble. Don't let go of it though, until he "gives" you the toy. Then let go. Praise and give him back the toy. Again, if you feel unsafe, wait for more help.
Does he play "retrieve"...like with a stick or ball? This can also be part of the give and take game. Remember, when you play the game and you ask him to give you a rather low value toy, you're holding out a higher value treat to trade him. (not extremely high. You want to save that for later when you graduate up the hierarchy of valued items.)But something he'll definitely rather have. Then after he eats the treat, you give him back his toy. Do it a few times and then let him keep his toy. Do it 3 or 4 times a day for a few reps. Use this same valued stuff for several days before you inch up to something he likes a little better than that toy, but not too high value. Come up with a treat or toy he would surely like better than what you had before. Show him it first. (Later, you should get to a point where you don't have to show him first. (because that is bribing.) However, it will likely keep you safer for him to see and smell the tasty treat. Just before you hold your other hand under his chin for him to drop the toy into, hold the treat near his nose and let him nibble. Don't let go of it though, until he "gives" you the toy. Then let go. Praise and give him back the toy. Again, if you feel unsafe, wait for more help.