Long term breeding plans/bloodline questions

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by frostfell, Jan 13, 2013.

  1. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Id like to get some feedback from wiser breeders than I, on what my best course of action might be, or maybe just the pros and cons of each.

    I am intending to breed my own line for the next 20-30 years, and there are two males in particular I am wanting to base my entire program on. They are both proving themselves to be excellent producers of sound dogs with good temperaments, even when sometimes not bred in the most wise manner. They are both from completely unrelated bloodlines. I have, to start with, a half sister to one of them (same sire) and I am intending to take her to a son of him, which would be her nephew.

    With my end goal being to work with both of these lines, what is my best course of action? Should I attempt to work with both lines separately for a number of years to improve them, before melding them into one? Or should I take my current bitch and breed her to the other bloodline right away, and work down from there, braiding in one and then the other as I go? Being as how the two males are SO drastically unrelated, I dont feel any qualms about a tight linebreed if I immediately cross them, I would just have to watch what I do from there in successive generations.

    Input?
     
  2. stafinois

    stafinois Professional Nerd

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    I'd bring it together now, then line breed down. But, you know how Pit Bull people love tight pedigrees!
     
  3. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    LOL yes, yes I do. I just worry about sloppiness and throwbacks when doing that, which is why I also wonder if working on each line separately first wouldnt be a good idea too. Get the e/w and slop out before I go crossing them.
     
  4. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I think if you have the ability to develop two kind of separate lines each based on a dog you really love, that is the way I could go. The reason being, you can combine the lines in the future. That way, if one doesn't pan out you don't have to scrap your whole program.
     
  5. Dog Dances Studio

    Dog Dances Studio New Member

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    The thing to remember is you are breeding to the grandparents in a line breeding. If THEY are tight then you are onto the greats. I have no where to take Darla or the boys except to a total out. With my requirements I doubt they will get bred.
     
  6. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Hmmm theres a horrifying thought. Something coming up down the road, nasty and recessive. Another excellent point. Aleron, both sires are pretty prolific, so finding offspring outside my yard to use isnt a problem. How long would you think I should breed each line before I try mixing them?
     
  7. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Yeah I already figured that out Karen, which is why Im not breeding my girl directly to the first male, but instead to a SON. I want to bring his traits to the table, not his sire or his grandsire. Hes proven to throw his look and temperament, and his son is near a little carbon copy of him, with better type.
     
  8. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    It happens for sure. Luckily I wasn't too far into my plans when it happened with my dogs but it was still really discouraging.

    It sort of depends on what you are able to do. I'd say to plan on three generations out of both and see what you have at that point.
     
  9. Kilter

    Kilter New Member

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    It helps to look at the COI and not get too boxed in with dogs. Also, if you are going really tight, do as much research and testing as you can. Not a bad idea to also test the dogs into older age for eyes etc. to be double sure you're not going to find anything out the hard way if at all possible.
     
  10. Dog Dances Studio

    Dog Dances Studio New Member

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    Yeah but what about the dam's side of that son? Whole other set of variables.
     
  11. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    She is unrelated back to like 7 generations, so its already an out right there
     
  12. chrisyboy

    chrisyboy New Member

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    can u lads help

    i know this has nothin to do with ur convo but u all seem to know a thing or two... im lookin to register my generation pedigree blue staf as im looking to stud him, his grandad is the famous blue staffy stud "levi" off the website www.bluestafford.com an his dad is one of levi's pups, both my staffs parents are registered breeding dogs but we didnt get any papers with my staff wen we got him as they didnt register him, is there anyway i can get him registered n get him some papers??
     
  13. SpicyBulldog

    SpicyBulldog New Member

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    Some things to think about.....
    What is the COI for each male?
    What will be the COI for the aunt/nephew breeding? Generally its 12.5%, the same for half siblings, but it can higher. Since this is s "half aunt" and not a true aunt its only 6.25%. How tight do you want to go/willing to go over time? What are your goals with the inbreeding? What are the negative traits of the common male (her sire/her nephews grandsire)?

    There is no one answer to this questions because it will always depend on the individual dogs in questions as well as the breeder.

    You already have your first idea for inbreeding set for the couple of generations. From there which way you go would really on how the dogs turn out.
    If you blend the lines and clean it up to the traits you desire from each that's a positive. You are developing a line from this foundation.

    If you breed two parallel lines and combine them later if one has what you want for the other that's a positive too. You have separate lines to develop the best in each line and later combine them and develop a strong line from the two.

    If you want too breed each line individually you can do that until you get what you want fairly consistently. 3-5 generations depending on what you see. We can make breeding plans until kingdom come but it really will depend on how each pup turns out at maturity on where one goes to the next generation.

    With the breeding you mentioned you could still be bringing the first males sire and/or grandsire traits to the table. Those dogs genes, at least some of them are being carried in his son.

    One important aspect to consider when inbreeding (really breeding period) is health and temperament. You do need to consider what is back in the pedigree and that of other related dogs as well. Those things can sure show up in your line a few generations later.
     
  14. frostfell

    frostfell Kung Pow Fish

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    Aye, all very good questions and things to think about. As for the COI, I havent the foggiest. Our pedigree database doesnt have a COI function like many do, so Iv been punching things in manually to a "breeders assistant" program I downloaded, but I only have a finite amount of patience for going all the way back into amstaffs, and to be honest I worry because theres at least 2 instances I know of where its "common knowledge" that a sire or dam was not the sire or dam on record, but an unknown dog of a different BREED entirely (once, Bulldog, and once, Stafford) which, being a totally other breed entirely, completely makes COI wonky, and Im not even sure how you would calculate that at all. So Im going to just assume, that whatever COI numbers I get, the true % is less

    But yes, youre right. ill have to reevaluate where I go after this first couple breedings. It will also depend on if I find anything worth using from the other sireline, as I DONT have access to that blood just yet either

    This board is awesome :popcorn:
     

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