Limited VS. Full Registration for Pet Pups?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by HoundMusic, Mar 28, 2009.

  1. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    4 dogs, 2 cats
    Location:
    N Texas, USA
    Home Page:
    I don't doubt it makes some sort of difference...

    My friend in Akitas says the lanky look is about it...no increase in HD...ACL tears...Thyroid...Incontinence...shortened lifespan, bloat etc. that could be attributed solely to the surgery and not the fact that ALL the above, occur in the breed no matter how much you test.

    I'd put the s/n thing in with microchipping...it has definite at times life saving benefits...it is something that can help a breeder keep some kind of control over the dogs that leave their property. It is something the new owner will either accept or move on (some people really freak out if you chip a dog and want to in any way stay on the chip, even as secondary contact/chip buyer)...and it something that CAN cause an issue later...since chips have been associated with cancer risk...sometimes...in some dogs...go figure if it would have occured anyways, or has a genetic basis.

    BTW OP...chipping your puppies is another way to keep track of them even if the people don't want you to...but as I mentioned...some folks have an issue with that, too.
     
  2. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    I can't see it affecting some of those things listed. But what I can see it effecting is bone density and strength, behaviour (not nessisarily in a bad way.. tho most of the juvie done dogs I know tend to be more timid and submissive than their lines would indicate.)

    I would think that the long thin lankyness may have some effect on internal organs (they were intended to have more room)
     
  3. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    4 dogs, 2 cats
    Location:
    N Texas, USA
    Home Page:
    ermm yeah I suppose so. Bone density and strength would be just as affected by a poor or even less than optimal, diet...and you'd have to rule that out to make a case for it being solely due to an early s/n.

    Since you brought up human comparisons, I think most human organs are within a certain size range relative to sex and age, regardless of the size of the person "container"...ditto the dog, adding in breed...I believe one of the big reasons large Giants do not live as long it that their hearts are not equipped to power such a large animal because they are at the outside of the size possibilty for the canine...so again.

    Human dwarf's have issues with oversized organs....GIANTS as well opposite...but within the two extremes it seems folks do just fine. A bit of extra lankiness is not to me, extreme...a dwarf version of an Akita, might have troubles...ditto a GIANT...but anything within the normal range? Umm no, can't see it. Akitas have a nice broad range of sizes,...and so do Beagles actually.
     
  4. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    No if you want to compare to humans you would have to look at Eunuchs who were 'altered' before puberty. Many interesting things about eunuchs if you research it.

    The dogs in question were fed the same diets as the owners other later altered dogs and only the early s/n ended up lanky. So yes whilst diet can be a huge issue, the sort of people I am referring to all feed premium kibbles or a good raw (as in educated raw) diet.

    Can you imagine an early altered dog + a poor diet? What a mess that could be!
     
  5. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    I have met people with issues. BUT I can't see how it helps you keep track of them. (lol its not like they are little GPS units) The only way is if the dog ends up in a shelter and happens to be scanned.

    I have heard the cancer issues. None of those have been published in a respected journal so far, and most of the funding is coming from people who desperately want to show that chipping is bad (they fear chipping in humans) however I am sufficiently up in the air about it the whippets weren't chipped, and neither will the Dekklets be.
     
  6. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    4 dogs, 2 cats
    Location:
    N Texas, USA
    Home Page:
    Eunuchs had bigger organs than others?
     
  7. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    I have read that they had health issues that were suspected could have been due to small chest cavity. Due to the dearth of contemporary Eunuchs we won't know. But there were many growth and development related issues we do know about.

    It has been studied in horses, but not 'juvie' just before maturity. And there is a marked morphological difference in horses gelded before maturity.
     
  8. HoundMusic

    HoundMusic New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    New York

    OP here - most of my pet owners are good about checking in & giving me updates, sending back the proof of s/n. Maybe 95% of them follow up. Of course, it's that other 5% that I worry about. Plus, last year we did have an owner break the contract and re home the dog without letting me know beforehand, refused to give me a valid contact info for the new home, too :madgo: So maybe I'm a little on the paranoid side now with the ones that fall off the face of the earth ...

    As for the early s/n, I have seen firsthand both pros and cons. Obviusly, the greatest advantage is no worrying that the pup will ever be bred. I am considering doing it with a test litter, but am still nervous about it. My first Beagle died of osteosarcoma, her only risk factor was being spayed before the 1st heat. We have never had hip or other orthopedic issues with early s/n but I have one pup that was probably going to be oversized anyway get spayed @ 5 months. She is HUGE. Harrier sized, with very, very thin bone structure. Disproportionate to her size. Her dam was heavily boned, the sire had moderate bone and speaking for her sire, usually threw moderate bone. I know that can very well predispose her to joint problems later in life. Her brother also went oversized but they held off on the neuter until 10 months, and he is tall, but has gorgeous round bone, and much more proportioned. So again, on the fence. I would really like to see more firsthand accounts of both positive & negative ...

    ETA: I am liking the microchipping pups suggestion more & more every minute :)
     
  9. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

    Joined:
    May 14, 2007
    Messages:
    19,779
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    8 dogs and 6 horses.
    Location:
    Ontario
    Home Page:
    and how is microchipping going to help you and the problems you are facing?
     
  10. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Teh boozer
    This is interesting - Can I ask what your health guarantee is? I thought the guarantee had something to do with health testing and the fitness of your line, why would not spaying or neutering negate this?


    /knows nothing about breeding, just curious...thx!
     
  11. Gypsydals

    Gypsydals New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    For health reasons I don't like spaying or neutering early. In dals the ones that are spayed and neutered early tend to have more problems passing stones (expecially the males). Not every dal will end up becoming a stone former.
    To me early spay and neutering does alter the looks of the dog. My neighbor had a dobie that she neutered at 6 weeks old. He ended up being very very tall, lanky and he had very little substance to his bone.
     
  12. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    12,548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Boston
    Ive noticed that A LOT also. Especially with males, if you give them a chance to mature before neutering, they grow to look more "manly" and less long and lanky. My boyfriends golden was neuterterd at 4 and is built like a mack truck lol the dogs brother, who looked/weighed the same as him at birth, was neutered at 10 weeks and is shaped like a tall lanky girl lol
     
  13. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Teh boozer
    Yep. I wish I would have waited with Rowdy - I had him neutered at 6 months and he's tall and lanky. I think he would have filled out instead of up had I waited.
     
  14. HoundMusic

    HoundMusic New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    New York

    My current health guarantee is this - lifetime on hips/patellas & 3yr on on any serious congenital or genetic issue. Guarantee becomes void if the pup is allowed to become *grossly* overweight (not a little chunky, morbidly overweight - I do not feel I should be responsible for health problems that occur due to another's negligence) OR if the pup is not spayed/neutered within the specified time period in the contract, which is currently within 8 months of sale. The reasoning behind voiding the guarantee is plainly because if you willfully break your end of the contract, why should one party be accountable to uphold it but not the other? A contract is an agreement between two sides, so if one breaks their end of the bargain, I have a stipulation that resolves me of my part ... Say I have sold you a puppy that was pet quality, I didn't feel the pup was breed worthy for whatever reason. So you get a pet pup at a much lower price than one who has field and/or show potential and therefore may be breeding quality as well. I trust you to alter your pet and you get registration papers that are devoid of my kennel name so you take credit for something that is not yours. You never alter your pet, go behind my back and breed it unbeknownst to me. Or worse, it is potentially a carrier for a certain problem that you would not know about since pup wasn't purchased for breeding or it is an affected - and you breed it :mad:

    So now we have a litter of poorly bred pups that are carriers and potentially affected with genetic disease when you were not sold the pup to be bred in the first place. If your pup is left intact, I have no way of knowing if you bred it or not ... I cannot see honoring my health guarantee in a situation such as this. It does give me a very high rate of return on the Veterinary proof of s/n though :headbanger:

    Whatever means necessary to protect myself, my reputation, pups & bloodline ... Yes, the health guarantee is there to offer protection for the buyer first and foremost, and is definitely a means to prove your confidence in the genetic health of the bloodline. Have nothing to hide, my bloodline has been beyond exceptionally healthy thus far. I have also been screwed over badly by "breeders" in the past so really do try to be as fair as possible myself, such as offering refunds or replacements for sick pups w/o the owner having to give back the dog, etc. I wouldn't put anything in my entire contract that I wouldn't want to sign myself. But I think fair is fair. Breeders should all be accountable for what they are producing, I have no dark secrets in my breeder closet, lol, but breeders in no way should be responsible for actions beyond their control. I shouldn't have to offer someone a full refund for a pup if they broke my contract by not having it altered. They can break their end, but I can't break mine? That completely negates the entire point of the contract. Both parties need to uphold their end of the bargain.
     
  15. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2007
    Messages:
    235
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    2
    Location:
    Teh boozer
    ^^ That sums it up nicely. Thanks for explaining. :)
     
  16. MaryAndDobes

    MaryAndDobes New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2006
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I sold a puppy to what would be termed a pet home. However, they did let us show their dog and we finished her championship relatively quickly. So fast that the pet owner turned to me that day she finished and said "I'm not ready to be done yet!"

    She went on to earn her CD and took her through and passed a temperament test as well, and therefore, that pet home put a Register of Merit on the dog!
     
  17. MaryAndDobes

    MaryAndDobes New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2006
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I spay/neuter my pet puppies while they are being cropped around the age of 9 weeks. I started that just over 6 years ago. I don't have any complaints, and frankly, it gives me a lot of peace of mind.

    Any show potential puppies that go out the door are on a co-ownership with a contract.
     
  18. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    8,415
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    4 dogs, 2 cats
    Location:
    N Texas, USA
    Home Page:
    Mary thanks for the note on this. Very interesting to hear from someone with firsthand experience with early s/n in large breed dogs.
     

Share This Page