Letting cats free Roam outside

[Romy]

I don't know what kind of problems you're talking about, i know cats put up a huge fuss when going from out doors to indoors, as i have brought stray cats into my home, and i have had them tear up my furniture and curtains, i have had them refuse to use the bathroom in the litter box, i have had cats throw all sorts of fits, but with time they get over it. I don't really think there is a cat who is going to throw a fit about it for years, you can allow your cat to go outside without risks to himself or the animals around him

You've never met my cat ...

Actually, if you think you could fix her, please take her. She was dumped on me by my ex. The cat and I have a truce now where she stopped brutally attacking me and pooping on my shoes while I was wearing them because she was so devastated and lonely, but if someone wanted her and was seriously willing to work with her, I would give her up in a heartbeat.

As it is, I'm stuck with her because 99.9% of people don't want a cat with her issues, nothing I've done has helped even remotely, and I refuse to lie about her problems to people to get her off my hands or take her to a shelter because she'd end up dumped or euthanized pretty quickly.

 

[Pops2]

I've never heard of a well taken care of altered cat roaming 1 square mile. They tend to stay well within 1000 feet of the house IME, more like within half that. As far pet cats destroying wildlife populations... in most cases I don't buy it. Feral and semi-feral cat populations, yes. 1-3 cats per residence in a very rural area... no. At least not in the vast majority of cases.

I said UP TO 1 sq mile. In theory, that means about a half mile radius from home, but in reality depending on the reasons for roaming their territory might be 2 miles linear by 1/2 wide. My neighbor's free roaming "siamese" hunting territory starts at the end of the road 1/2 mile away and encompasses a stretch of brush 1/4 mile long by 30-60 feet wide sandwiched between the golf course and another neighborhood. their grey tabby that disappeared fora year and a half doesn't seem to go farther than 1/4 mile from the house. And the orange tabby that disappeared never went more than 100 yards. So yes most may not travel that far but some do.
And yes one of the studies done in one of the south Canadian states (Wisconsin Minnesota or Michigan I can't remember) in the 90s involved extensive direct observation of a national forest adjacent to a suburb. In their notes cats that were considered free roaming pets (had collars & were in good physical condition or observed being cared for in the neighborhood) had AVERAGE kill to stalk ratios of 2:4 and someas high as 3:4 even while wearing bells. True ferals had observed success rates similar to bobcats at 1-2:4.

 

[Red.Apricot]

I love cats.

I hate outdoor cats. I don't like the impact on the local wildlife, and I'm basically at my limit with my neighbor's cats. I'm tired of picking up their poop, I'm tired of them spraying my front door and peeing on my front mat and tearing up my plants and coming into my back yard to torment my dogs while I'm trying to sleep and having sex under the window while I'm studying. Obviously I know that not all of those are going to apply to everyone's cat, but that's the reality of the cats living in my neighborhood right now. I'm (mildly) inconvenienced by them almost every day. It gets old. I also don't like their life expectancy (here, anyway; tons of predators) because it makes me sad for the cats... if it's not okay for Zobby to run around the neighborhood (he desperately wants to; he def. wouldn't be okay being 'indoor only' for his whole life), why is it okay for my neighbor's cat? They're about the same size.

I understand that there are many cats that need a lot more stimulation than is easily provided by just being inside, and I know they're not mini-dogs. I have had cats, and I love cats, and I can't wait until I'm in a position to have one again; but I don't appreciate having to deal with all of the downsides that come with my neighbors having cats just because their pet needs to be outdoors. I'm pretty sure that if I let my dog poop in their flower box three times a week, they'd be pretty pissed.

Plus one of them killed 'my' alligator lizard, who lived on the front porch, eating spiders for me. That bummed me out.

 

[Pops2]

Well, maybe but I've never been able to go outside and not call Minnie and Nuts to me, and other than mice and chipmunks here the coyotes have done in most small game all on their own...

What neighbors I do have are active Dairy farms with barn cats, and it, frankly was being inside that took my boys away from me....

As long as you establish with them that they are cool with it if they visit, then go for it.

 

[JessLough]

I hate outdoor cats. I don't like the impact on the local wildlife, and I'm basically at my limit with my neighbor's cats. I'm tired of picking up their poop, I'm tired of them spraying my front door and peeing on my front mat and tearing up my plants and coming into my back yard to torment my dogs while I'm trying to sleep and having sex under the window while I'm studying.

This, too. Especially sex at night. Oh god, the sounds, while I'm trying to sleep.

Yet, the same people that let their cats out look at me when my dog is outside and barks once, like it's this huge annoyance and their cats are no annoyance.

I wish it was as true as a cat could be let outside and it would stick around it's house, but if that were the case, cats wouldn't be lost and found on the other side of the city as often as they are.

 

[sillysally]

The only outdoor cat I will ever have is a barn cat, and these are not cats that I would become particularly attached to. My grandpa has a lot of barn cats, and many of them do not last long--they get killed by predators, killed by cars, killed by who-knows-what. Sometimes you'd find a body, sometimes they just disappear.

I live in town and I think it is extremely inconsiderate if you live in a populated area. I don't let my dogs pee and poop in said cat owners yards, so I'd appreciate the same consideration. Cat feces is super disgusting, and there are few things worse than coming across it in the garden. Gross. Plus they are the second leading cause of death of wild birds, and I love birds. If people's cats never ever ever left their own property while loose, I wouldn't care what they let them do--but that never seems to be what happens.

Are cats happier is they are allowed to run loose? Maybe. My dogs would be thrilled if they could run the neighborhood raising hell, my horses would have adored a chance to roam the Indiana dunes at will. It would have greatly enhanced their quality of life. BUT, part of owning domestic animals is understanding that the life we give them is NOT natural, and that as their owners we have to do our best to balance their needs with the needs of the human society we exist in.

 

[Pops2]

I never said cats in general, I specifically said owned (as in regularly fed, have a consistent home base with incentive to stick close, neutered so as not to roam) cats. Feral cats, semi-feral cats... no argument there. I wouldn't be opposed to them being exterminated, and I'm not at all opposed to people culling them (though I do really like cats and am saddened by it). And I don't think it's fair to include island ecology in this, because island ecosystems are often unique, extra fragile and without native predators.

I skimmed a couple of the articles you left (and I mean really skimmed, I should go back and re-read the better ones):



Of course outdoor (pet) cats kill things. But what are they killing? Native species, introduced species? What are the population trends of those native species? I used IUCN to look up the species of birds I can remember us getting around our place:

American Robin—least concern, population increasing
American Goldfinch—least concern, population increasing
House Finch—least concern, population increasing
Black-Capped Chickadee—least concern, population increasing
Fox Sparrow—least concern, population stable
Dark-Eyed Junco—least concern, population stable
Spotted Towhee—least concern, population stable
House Sparrow—least concern, population decreasing (**introduced species)
Song Sparrow—least concern, population stable

None of them seem to be in trouble (though I'm sure I missed some). As far as mammals go, most of our small mammals are introduced anyways (grey squirrels, house mice, Norwegian rats)... otherwise there are some species of vole, which I'm guessing aren't in any sort of trouble. My guess is that the majority of wildlife you find in developed areas has adapted to living with people and isn't in any trouble (I'm sure there are exceptions).

One of your articles says:


So it may be 1/3 of birds killed by cats are invasive competition for native bird species.

Other things to consider: what is the health of the animals they are killing? Are these species impacted by density dependent factors (e.g. do only xx% of them survive the winter due to competition over food; do only xx% win appropriate breeding sites )? To what extent have has cat predation replaced that by native predators whose populations have been reduced by human activity?

That said, in some areas I'm sure pet cats do have a significant impact on a population (maybe one of the few nesting sites for an endangered species), and yes they should be kept out of those areas, pets or not.

I don't care about the birds' status. They are native wildlife & the cats are not. On my land & public land they are not welcome period. Now if they only killed non native wildlife I'd feel different.
Honestly it's not the cats that bother me so much as the people that abandon them or don't own up to the problems their free roaming cats cause.

 

[Pops2]

What about a cat proof fenced area? Benefits of outside, but safer for the cat and wildlife. We did that with my parents' last cat and it literally saved his life since he was being beat up by other cats outside but would have stress related diarrhea if kept exclusively indoors.

This whole heartedly.

 

[Fran101]

This is honestly one of the chief reasons I don't own cats.
Because if I did, I would want it to be indoor/outdoor
but I would totally understand people not wanting my cat on their property and like..shooting at it, or whatever. I mean, fair enough, my animal shouldn't be on your property.
So it's kind of double edged sword where I get people being pissed off about strange cats just being a nuisance but if I had a cat I mean.. I would kind of let it be a nuisance and hope for the best lol

Full disclosure there were neighborhood cats that hung around peeing and pooping and screaming in our yard and my brothers used to shoot them with paintball guns. It never really HURT the cats at all, just scared them.

We tried talking with our neighbors and sending out letters but in the end having their cats come home covered in paint was a clearer message.. cats either got sick of being shot at and found a new place to hang out OR the owners took responsibility and kept them away.

It's that kind of thing that gets me stuck on the cat thing. I mean, I'm sure these cat owners were MAD. Most of those cats had collars, they were going home somewhere. and there is nothing they could do or say really. I could only imagine if it was something worse than paintball guns

 

[Greenmagick]

I honestly dont see why its hard to have either an indoor only OR indoor/outdoor cat with provisions...cat fencing, leashing, etc. Cats are trainable.

(this is not really regarding OPs situation as with that much land the pro/con list is different...but for generel suburban/urban areas)

 

[Whisper]

In an ideal world, cats would spend the time they wanted inside, then go outside to soak up the sun and harmlessly chase butterflies. In reality, instead many get hits by cars or mauled by other animals, and they are often complete pests.
Coyotes snatched my dog from my own fenced yard- letting my kitties roam here would be a death sentence.
In the 10 years I've lived here I've only known one cat to survive for over a year. My neighbors had seven indoor/outdoor cats over the period they lived here, and ALL of them "disappeared" within a week.

I have 2 cats. One of them has absolutely no interest in being outside. The other sits by the door and wails in misery to be let out. I take her out on a leash and harness.

I do have to say that the situation is pretty different when it comes to the US vs. a lot of Europe. Where Dizzy lives there are not the same kind of predators.

About the endangered birds, I can't say much about that as my experience is limited. My worry in regards to my cats is a hawk snatching one of them.

 

[Xandra]

Is there any reason you can't use an electric fence for a cat? I mean the kind designed for dogs with the collar. If I ever live in close proximity to neighbors and want a cat I might give that a go. Seems like the least restrictive option to keep it away from the neighbors.

 

[Whisper]

Xandra, that's an interesting idea to keep it away from the neighbors and I think the cat would learn fast, but it still doesn't protect the cat from anything. It can't get out but anything can get in.
I'd also kind of worry about pain tolerance. In my experience, either cats have lower pain tolerance than most dogs or they're terrible drama queens. Or both.

 

[Raegan]

I don't consider it responsible ownership of any animal if you let it roam unsupervised. It's not responsible with dogs, it's not responsible with horses, it's not responsible with birds, rabbits, hedgehogs, cattle, pigs, whatever, you don't let animals you own wander all over creation.

 

[Romy]

I don't consider it responsible ownership of any animal if you let it roam unsupervised. It's not responsible with dogs, it's not responsible with horses, it's not responsible with birds, rabbits, hedgehogs, cattle, pigs, whatever, you don't let animals you own wander all over creation.

I was thinking about this. Does this also apply to people who keep free-roaming doves and pigeons in a dove cote? I know several folks who do this. One of them owns over 300 pigeons. His flock has been sighted over 20 miles away and they always return to his house every single night. They get fed there, etc.

That style of keeping pigeons really appeals to me, because I always loved having birds but don't keep them because I really dislike keeping birds in cages (birds like finches and canaries, not poultry like chickens).

 

[Pops2]

Is there any reason you can't use an electric fence for a cat? I mean the kind designed for dogs with the collar. If I ever live in close proximity to neighbors and want a cat I might give that a go. Seems like the least restrictive option to keep it away from the neighbors.

I've thought about this myself. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

 

[Pops2]

I don't consider it responsible ownership of any animal if you let it roam unsupervised. It's not responsible with dogs, it's not responsible with horses, it's not responsible with birds, rabbits, hedgehogs, cattle, pigs, whatever, you don't let animals you own wander all over creation.

This might be true if your cattle are pets & they stay in the barn. In reality you can't compare cattle to dogs. They are not interdependent in the same way. And you do in point of fact leave cattle unsupervised to wander as they please. it's called open range and is alive and well in several western states.

 

[Whisper]

This might be true if your cattle are pets & they stay in the barn. In reality you can't compare cattle to dogs. They are not interdependent in the same way. And you do in point of fact leave cattle unsupervised to wander as they please. it's called open range and is alive and well in several western states.

It's out here, too. The cattle here are closed off from streets and everything (though they have hundreds of acres), but in my old place you'd wake up to cows knocking against the side of the house.
We once had to do some serious repairs after a bull tried to have his way with the car. :rofl1:

 

[RD]

I don't have cats because I can't let them outside. I didn't bring my cats with me from Mexico even though I miss them terribly, because they would have to be strictly indoors and would hate it.

I am very mixed on the subject of outdoor cats. I dislike the fact that their life expectancy declines so much and the fact that cats are often destructive to other peoples' property since they rarely stay within the confines of their own property, but I also dislike the thought of having a cat and never letting it out to prowl, explore and hunt.

 

[Whisper]

I don't have cats because I can't let them outside. I didn't bring my cats with me from Mexico even though I miss them terribly, because they would have to be strictly indoors and would hate it.

I made this choice as well with a cat I had as a child. I had the opportunity to take her back, but she was already in a good home and if I'd brought her here, she would be indoors only and absolutely miserable. She always liked to spend about 20 hours of the day outside. Super cuddly for a nap and little visit, but then she needed to be back out.

When or if I have the property and funds I'd like to have a big enclosure for my cats and general hermitry. My grandma has a garden with banana trees, other random plants, and turtles. It's a big, natural space, but it's secure all around. Lots of little lizards and such for a kitty to chase, too.