Jumping style

Discussion in 'Agility and Dog Sports' started by Laurelin, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    In USDAA, the heights are 12-16-22-26. So no, not the same percent difference, and as I already described, the potential variance between dog's height and jump height is, percentage wise, at it's greatest for the 22" height. Which I don't think is fair. It may not be an issue for me, but that still won't make it really fair.

    I don't have a good workable solution for it while sticking with the USDAA philosophy of not having dogs jump under their shoulder height (my best guess would be to add a height and change them to 10-14-18-22-26, with the cutoff for 18" being 17", cutoff for 14" being 13.5", and cutoff for 10 being 10", but that's a big change, would require a lot of equipment modification, and I doubt they'd go for it), but fortunately, it's not my problem to solve.
     
  2. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    Obviously, the answer to the original question is "YES!", there are certain breed tendencies with jumping.

    Very true!

    My experience with Standards is that they have a very exaggerated, flashy looking jumping style that is not terribly functional. I see a lot of Dobes who jump similarly.

    Belgians can have a few issues with jumping. They are a breed prone to ETS, some jump flat and some are just...awkward jumpers. But there are some who are beautiful, efficient jumpers too.


    I don't think it is fair to say the majority of GSDs are overangulated with weak pasterns. That is pretty much an issue with showlines and not any other type of GSD. However, I agree that those dogs tend to struggle with jumps even in preferred. I have known more than one to wash out of agility because they just couldn't manage the jumping requirements, even jumping only 20". I think that is sad, for a breed that is supposed to be very athletic. That said, you wouldn't find those things to be an issue with a nice moderate working line GSD. I don't see many of those dogs in agility around here though.

    I have always thought it was a bit strange that the breed that many feel are best for agility (BCs) are often not naturally talented jumpers. Yes they do have the flexibility but they also can be prone to very flat jumping and ETS. There are a lot of would be great BCs that just can't keep the bars up consistently. And around here, there seems to be a lot of Shelties with signs of ETS even at the highest levels. That isn't to say those breeds aren't good for agilty. Obviously many people have achieved the highest levels of success with them. It is just to say that no breed is without their potential drawbacks in terms of ability. And a good reason to pay attention to jump training and style, no matter what kind of dog you have.

    I admit, one thing I looked at with PyrSheps was jumping ability and tendencies towards having jumping issues. I loved that PyrSheps often tend to be really good jumpers naturally. That doesn't mean I didn't put thought into jump training for Savvy though, it's just nice that jumping has always been pretty easy for him. I have been practicing at 16" and 20" lately because I really don't know what he will measure into and 20" will certainly not be an issue for him if that is where we end up.

    LOL I know how you feel! Whim measured to jump 24" at one trial and she looked so tiny next to all the other 24" dogs.

    Between Whim's unofficial AKC measures, her official measurements and her CPE measurement there was a 2 1/2" gap. CPE she measured at 20 1/2, she got a 23" measurement once in AKC, a 22 1/2, a 21" and two 22". So you can't assume all questionable measurements are political. Her first VMO measurement was 22 1/2", which bumped us into 24" for that trial and another she was measured at 23"...which is definitely wrong. Her last two were right at 22" which is probably most accurate (that judge seriously took no time at all with the measurement either). I always got her at 22" or just under. The last two VMOs were super nice and really worked with me to get her measurements. Not because they were being political because I'm not any body in agility but because that asked if she was close to a cut off and I said yes. I greatly appreciate their willingness to take their time, get her settled and make sure she was standing properly. The way they did it, they had me tell her to stay on the table and walk away so she was watching me. It worked really well. Hopefully I get some patient VMOs for Savvy too!

    FWIW I'm not whining. I was ok with her jumping 24" to, if that was what she truly measured into. The biggest advantage of her measuring into 20" is getting to jump 16" when she's old and in preferred :)

    I tend to think that all things being equal it's ideal to have a dog on the high end of the cut off for their height rather than the low end. But of course, there are many dogs who are at the low end of their hieght division who do really well too.

    I do think USDAA should have breed exemptions since they tend to have lower cut-offs for each height. Ziggy is over 12" and would have to jump 16" in USDAA. He definitely can jump 16" and has but I'm just not sure jumping a dwarf dog at 16" at the speed he runs over many years is reasonable. He jumps 12" in AKC and other than having typical crazy dog bar knocking sometimes, he's never had any issues at that height. It really doesn't matter, we don't do USDAA because there are very few trials close to home.

    So saying because your JRTs are suited at 12" to jump 16" is sort of only taking into account a certain body type. My friends have a tiny JRT girl who just barely measured to jump 16" in USDAA and did so without any issues, even with bad knees. There is a world of difference between that dog's build and Ziggy's though. He's perfectly healthy and sound but his legs are probably shorter than most JRTs of the same height.

    Yes any judge can measure in CPE. I'm not sure how they handle if there is a dispute about height though.

    I'd probably teach Bean all about jumping first before doing much flyball jumping. Make sure he's already a good jumper before introducing him to the fast, flat, predictable style that is required in flyball. I know you roll your eyes at the idea that people think flyball causes problems with jumping but...well people tend to think that after seeing many dogs who are primarily flyball dogs struggle with jumping in agility. Not that dogs with no flyball background never have issues but flyball doesn't seem to stack the odds in your favor if you have a fast, driven dog who already has tendencies to jump flat.
     
  3. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I've watched a bunch of videos on ETS and I still am not sure about it. Of course it's a concern with a sheltie or a bc in particular. To me the dogs 'with ETS' just look like they're very high and incredibly fast. How do they determine if it's ETS or if it's just a dog that is out of control?
     
  4. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    To me, ETS looks pretty specific. The dog is taking off very early, the arch of their jump happens prior to the actual jump although some dogs with it don't knock bars or don't always knock bars. It's not always just that though. Dogs who have it tend to lower themselves and hesitate in a certain way prior to the jumps. It really looks like they are trying to judge if they should go for it. It's not just the bad making a bad choice because they are too wound, it's fairly consistent. Many do better at lower jumps, in terms of they can compensate better when they aren't having to clear a higher jump. Some dogs can compensate quite well, others get very stressy and worried about it. Some dogs who have it get to a point where they are stutter stepping and/or hesitating very badly at every jump. Also you can often see the same lowering/hesitation/stutter stepping prior to them taking the Aframe or getting on the table too.

    This explains what ETS is and with videos that show what it looks like. Especially useful are the ones that show how it tends to progress over time. The one of Freeze, you can really see her lower herself especially prior to the tire.

    http://www.awesomepaws.us/?page_id=416

    You can also see it really clearly with this dog:

    http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=115

    And it is really, really obvious with this dog:

    http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=116

    And this shows it pretty well too and also shows how it can affect jumping onto the table:

    http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=feature.display&feature_id=118
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Yeah I've watched those before. I definitely see the jumping problems. I'm just confused on how they think it's genetic. Also, couldn't the reason you see it more in shelties and border collies just be because those two breeds are so popular in agility?
     
  6. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    It is believed to be genetic because many dogs who display it have close relatives who display it as well.
    Things like what Nancy Gyes wrote about in her blog on the issue are fairly common when the dog's close relatives are known and also compete:

    "Then I had my first border collie ETS experience. I rescued three 8 week old border collie pups from the pound and we kept one ourselves. Her name is Fly, and my husband Jim put a MAD title on her before we placed her with her current owner, Laura Manchester Derrett. Like all typical ETS dogs, the problems were not apparent in the beginning. We thought we could “fix†her funny jumping which actually did not look funny at all until she was about 2 years old. Her siblings had similar jumping issues. This was my first clue 10 years ago that this disease is hereditary and not ever fixable. Siblings with a similar jumping issue means that the dogs were born with the problem, there was nothing we did, and nothing we could do to fix the problem." http://nancygyes.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/epilepsy-early-take-off-and-late-onset-deafness-in-border-collie-studies/

    So while it's not yet "proven" to be genetic, it seems obvious there is a genetic predisposition. There is research in the works to find a genetic marker for the issue in BCs. At this point, I'd say it's fairly accepted there is a genetic predisposition among most people breeding BCs for agility. And given that there does seem to be at least a genetic predisposition, no I don't think popularity is the only reason it is thought to be an issue in certain breeds. Belgians are not hugely popular in agility but it's associated with them as well. There are only a handful of Belgians that trial in my area compared to the number of BCs and Shelties and some of them have ETS or show signs of it.
     
  7. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    There is always performance or what ever USDAA calls it. JRTs have a pretty moderate body type, neither light nor heavy. But yes there are dogs that will fall out of moderate canine morphology that were not built to jump. But then again should we make course times really slow for the heavy dogs? There has to be SOME level of physical proficiency required... And there is always an option to move your dog down anyway.

    OT though.. I wouldn't say your friends JRT is tiny if its over 12 inches (even if barely) Dekka, Seren and Kat all measured under 12. (Seren is bang on 11 inches) the breed standard is split into overs and unders.. with the dividing line being 12.5 inches. Scandal was barely in breed standard at just over 10 inches. JRTs can be quite small and still within breed standard.

    [/QUOTE]
     
  8. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    This thread is starting to make me paranoid about Pan's jumping. I really hope she doesn't have ETS.
     
  9. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Waaaay too early to think that, and I didn't see anything other than an exuberant young dog. Relax :)


    I really wish I could find a 3-vid series an agility trainer posted a while ago...with the question to analyze the dogs' jumping styles...they were such perfect depictions...
     
  10. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Ack, sorry! I didn't mean to make anyone worried.

    There's not much you can do though is there? I mean for ETS. I've been looking at the videos of the breeders I'm interested in. Youtubing as many agility clips as I can. But none of the breeders are breeding specifically FOR agility so there's only a small sampling of the dogs to look at.
     
  11. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    Thanks. :) After watching some of the vids I feel a bit better, she doesn't do the lowering of the head, stutter stepping, or hesitating at 16-22". She's not as confident at 26", but she's still young and hasn't jumped it often at all.

    And don't worry Laurelin, it's good to be aware of possible issues. :)
     
  12. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    I think having breed exceptions for jump heights is reasonable. A JRT jumping 16" is a lot different than a corgi of the same size jumping 16" which would be closer to a leggier 12" dog jumping 20". Breed exemptions wouldn't really be lessening the challenge.


    She definitely is tiny, they get asked if she's a Chihuahua sometimes LOL. She is really petite, much finer boned than most JRTs. She looked rather out of place jumping 16" compared to the other dogs. They only competed in CPE with her after they found out she had pretty bad luxating patellas, although they never gave her trouble in agility.


    I agree...too early to worry with Pan. She's still a pretty inexperienced, still-in-training dog. Don't panic!

    No ETS is not generally "fixable". Sometimes it can be very manageable, especially jumping at a lower height.
     
  13. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Are there any breed exemptions in any venue? Like my friends Swiss Mnt Dog measures into 20 but she looks ridiculous jumping that height, she's so much cleaner and safer looking at 16.
     
  14. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    So much to worry about. I think I'll cry if my next dog ends up with structural issues too. I already worry so much about Mia's knees although she hasn't had an issue in real life or agility yet.
     
  15. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    I hear you! I so wanted Pan to be a French Ring dog, that got put on hold. Now she absolutely loves agility and it would break my heart if she couldn't do it any more. At least there's always tracking and nose work left.
     
  16. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Apparently I'm behind the times...why can't Pan do French Ring?

    In any case I hope agility Pans out (bad pun). You guys are going to have so much fun!
     
  17. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    “Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!â€

    I just repeat that to myself (my joints are much worse than my dog's joints ;))
     
  18. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    NADAC has some breed height exemptions, but NADAC is batshit crazy. Sorry to any NADAC fans. I did a little NADAC when I started out (before they really went off the deep end), and I always felt a little guilty running my Staffords at 12", where they were so much taller than the other dogs in the class.

    On the ETS topic... I've seen video of a Dobe with ETS which was really sad. Sorry, it was a while back, so I wouldn't be able to find the link. Some of us have discussed this, and it appears to be a vision problem, which makes depth perception difficult for the affected dogs. And yes, as we know, vision problems tend to be inherited. But there's no real way to diagnose them in dogs.

    Sadly, the bitch I bred and placed (a Stafford) appears to have ETS. I don't think any of her family that I know of have it, though her dam sometimes jumps early, I think in that case it has to do with the dog trying to turn more tightly without being able to collect easily. If she takes off earlier, she lands closer to the jump. Also, Staffords tend to think if they add more power, it will solve anything, so they take off early and jump long and flat. In this video, you can see this girl almost hits the triple because she takes off so early for it. She jumps spreads better if she comes at them from an angle so that she can actually see where they are... straight on, she tends to think she should jump earlier and with maximum power.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvsfIM-vYK8
    She's running 12" Preferred, because of her jumping issues, it's safer to have her jump lower. She can compensate a little better, and less likely to land on the jumps. She won't be running USDAA, because she does measure over 16". She may not run for long at all.

    I'm sad about the issue, but I'm hoping hers turns out to be an isolated case. Though it will be so long before I can breed again, maybe by then someone will have come up with a vision test that works on dogs.
     
  19. Panzerotti

    Panzerotti New Member

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    Well, her temperament as a pup was not great for bite work. She was taking things way too seriously, and not knowing any better at the time I let decoys work her much too strongly, causing her to have some major issues with strange men. We did get back into it this summer with an amazing decoy and she was making nice progress but it's a 6 hour drive each way, which gets rather expensive. I still have hope that we can trial one day though. :)
     
  20. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    ASCA, NADAC and CPE have exemptions, all different though. Not sure what they would have your friend's Swissy jumping. CPE actually has a lot of choices for jump heights with their Early Veteran, Veteran, Specialist and Enthusiast catagories. Veterans/Early Veterans compete for regular titles, Specialist and Enthusiast compete for separate titles.

    A friend of mine had Berners when AkC was the only real option here and before preferred. The jumps were a real struggle and even with the youngest when Preferred started, 20" was still too high for her. That dog was actually really into it but the bar knocking was a constant issue.
     

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