Jumping style

Discussion in 'Agility and Dog Sports' started by Laurelin, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    Good point. I can also think of a few non-BCs I know with questionable measurements... =P

    A judge stopped the trial once because he wanted to make sure Auggie was running the correct height. Not because he thought he was too tall... because he thought he was too SMALL. He thought they had screwed up the run order. *sigh* No, that's actually what he measured into...
    Luckily they brought back challenging the height card, but you can only do it once now. Thankfully, both of Auggie's challenge measurements were right at 14", so we got a new height card and I was able to drop him down.

    Supposedly if people complain the judge can call for a measurement on a dog, but I've never actually heard of that happening.
     
  2. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    What counts as an 'off breed'?

    Thanks for all the height measuring links. I suppose that makes sense... as long as everyone is honest.
     
  3. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Non-BC or -Sheltie lol.



    2012 Breed Breakdown for NAC. I bolded the top 5.

    Afghan Hound 1
    Airedale Terrier 2
    All American Dog / Mixed Breed 12
    American Eskimo Dog 2
    American Foxhound 1
    Australian Cattle Dog 14
    Australian Shepherd 62
    Beagle 7
    Bedlington Terrier 1
    Belgian Malinois 2
    Belgian Sheepdog 7
    Belgian Tervuren 11
    Bernese Mountain Dog 3
    Bolognese 1
    Border Collie 227
    Border Terrier 9
    Boston Terrier 6
    Bouvier des Flandres 1
    Boxer 1
    Briard 2
    Brittany 3
    Brussels Griffon 1
    Cairn Terrier 5
    Cardigan Welsh Corgi 6
    Cavalier King Charles Spaniel 12
    Chihuahua 1
    Chinese Crested 10
    Cocker Spaniel 19
    Collie 7
    Coton de Tulear 2
    Dachshund 2
    Dalmatian 1
    Doberman Pinscher 2
    English Cocker Spaniel 3
    English Setter 2
    English Springer Spaniel 5
    Flat-Coated Retriever 7
    French Bulldog 2
    German Shepherd Dog 7
    German Shorthaired Pointer 5
    Golden Retriever 49
    Greyhound 1
    Havanese 4
    Icelandic Sheepdog 3
    Irish Setter 2
    Irish Terrier 1
    Keeshond 4
    Kerry Blue Terrier 2
    Labrador Retriever 20
    Lhasa Apso 1
    Lowchen 1
    Maltese 2
    Manchester Terrier 2
    Mastiff 1
    Miniature American Shepherd 1
    Miniature Pinscher 1
    Miniature Schnauzer 15
    Norfolk Terrier 1
    Norwich Terrier 1
    Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever 8
    Papillon 42
    Parson Russell Terrier 13
    Pembroke Welsh Corgi 25
    Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen 1
    Pomeranian 7
    Poodle 37
    Portuguese Water Dog 6
    Pug 6
    Pumi 4
    Pyrenean Shepherd 5
    Rat Terrier 6
    Rhodesian Ridgeback 3
    Rottweiler 2
    Russell Terrier 3
    Schipperke 1
    Shetland Sheepdog 120
    Shih Tzu 4
    Siberian Husky 4
    Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier 1
    Spinone Italiano 1
    Staffordshire Bull Terrier 1
    Standard Schnauzer 5
     
  4. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    I'm probably going to the bad place, but I would do pretty much anything to get Gusto in the height class I want. I've had a few Names tell me "Oh, I could get him in 16", and I've been tempted to say "then you please go hold him for the judge".

    We'll see. He's so hard to measure, but he's pretty close to the cut off. I'm hoping he'll squeeze under, and you can bet I'm asking around to see which judges I need to avoid (I'm not looking for someone to lie, but I want to stay away from the ones who lose their patience quickly rather than giving the dog time to settle). The world will not end if I have another performance dog. But I really don't want to run my 16.25" dog at 22".

    We have someone in my classes who has a BC that, I think, is similarly bred to your guys. She jumps him at 26" in AKC even though he measures for 20" strictly because he's a much better jumper at that height. I think when you get those crazy athletic types, they get lazy over the little jumps. I don't know what it would mean for him as far as his injuries, but I certainly wouldn't hesitate to just jump him 26" in any venue from a training standpoint.
     
  5. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    Yay papillons! All 5 of those breeds are breeds I've owned/heavily considered. lol
     
  6. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Well you DID say he jumps big... ;)

    It's frustrating to have the Little Dog in the class. From a competition standpoint but even more from a longevity of career standpoint. Mira's RIGHT on the line...she's been measured at 22 even several times by people other than me just to see where she is...because they yell at me for jumping her bigger than she needs to...but on the day she was measured for real she measured big and bouncy and I only get one chance to challenge so I'm dragging my feet. I've had people say, oh that's great you don't have to run against the BCs! And I just don't get that...it's better for my dog to jump 20 so I would if I could...and heck if they think the top dogs are in the 20" class then you bet I want to run against them...I'd rather place 10th against the best than 1st in any other class if that's how it stacks up...but that's me I guess. And even for those who do believe that...as others have pointed out, BCs are showing up more and more in 16" and 24"...we run against them fairly regularly and it's fun. Fortunately we have some of the top 24" dogs in the country around here so there is plenty of competition no matter where we fall :)
     
  7. Beanie

    Beanie Clicker Cult Coordinator

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    I think there's something to be said for going to a judge who is willing to be patient; I don't begrudge anybody that because that was my problem with Auggie. He needed a judge who was going to give him time to settle on the table. The very first official measurement he got, the VMO was giving him time, and right before she was about to say "I think he's just over 14"," he relaxed and she got his measurement just under 14".
    That said, his second measurement was under a VMO who is notorious for low measurements on BCs and high measurements on anything else. When people would ask about Auggie's jump height, all I had to do was say this VMOs name, and people immediately understood. She measured him over 15". Ummm. No.

    I did like Shai and I waited a good while on Auggie's challenge measurements until I knew the VMO was not only a patient person but had PLENTY of time. The second VMO I had do his challenge wasn't even judging the trial, she was just there doing measurements. She was done running her dogs and I asked if she had time... didn't even tell her what I was hoping for because I wanted to come by it honestly, didn't even mention Auggie's gimpy feet. She took her time with him and got him right at 14" which was what we needed.

    I definitely think there's a difference between people who have borderline dogs versus people who... work the system I guess you could say. Like, if I were at a trial and they called to measure all dogs, I wouldn't go "WELP" and just pack up Auggie and leave. I would have given it a shot, because I know he CAN honestly measure into the 12" jump height. I think there's a distinction.

    I kinda think the USDAA jump heights suck though. A dog just over 16" jumping 22" is insane to me.


    Payton actually is also right on the line of 16", which isn't a problem for agility (since it's AKC city around here so that's all we do), but is a problem for confo as 16" is the cut off for shelties. Auggie's breeder told me he probably won't get looks unless we put a handler on him, because he's almost too tall, and if they wicket him he might bomb out depending. And I really don't want to put a handler on my dog, honestly... I wanted to owner handle him. Soooooo he may never set foot in the confo ring because of that. =P
     
  8. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    Yeah, I know his breeder does that with some of her dogs (not all). I just... need to find somebody to give me a good answer on jump heights and safety and his injury. His rehab vet is fine with my jumping him up as long as he stays comfortable and I increase him gradually, but she doesn't see a lot of sport dogs.

    I think Bean is heavier-boned than Steve and I'm not sure I'd jump him up if it comes to that. But Steven has the body-type for it-- light-boned and narrow and racey.
     
  9. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    That's a great way of wording it re: jump height measuring. And it really is hard when you have a borderline dog because you want the measurement to reflect reality...but reality is that on some days your dog will measure one way and others your dog will measure the other way. They are both and depending on the condition of the dog and how excited the dog is, they can easily and legitimately +/- an inch.

    When Mira relaxes she's 22" even. The problem is that Mira rarely relaxes and ESPECIALLY not at an agility trial where I swear even when she's sleeping in her crate she's excited. No she's not a screaming banshee or anything but she knows what a trial is and she is up and ready to work. Which is exactly the environment she needs to get measured in :headdesk:. Plus she has these ridiculous neck muscles from retrieving so if the judge is rushed or not paying attention they can slap that wicket down just a half in forward onto her neck and miss the withers, and that makes her over 23". And it's not hard to do...I did it myself once when checking her height quickly and nearly fell over in shock lol. Then realized that with her thick retriever skin, coat, and the muscle I wasn't right *on* the withers. :rolleyes:

    And yeah the thought that Webster would jump 22" in USDAA...Webster who weighs a whopping 20lbs...that's just nuts. In some ways I like that in USDAA everyone jumps over their shoulder height...in AKC there is just a huge difference in job requirement for dog who jump under vs. over their shoulder height...ie. dogs at the top vs. the bottom of their height category...but the 16 to 22" gap is just way too big in USDAA and is rather ridiculous imo.
     
  10. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I know what you are saying by flyball, eyeroll

    but there is a good chance he jumps long and flat due to flyball. Its not a bad thing at all. Its what one NEEDS in a flyball dog. And it has its uses in agility (though not landing 4 on the floor, silly Steve) I think a good portion of it is build, but the rest is how the dog practises jumping most often, esp when young and learning.

    Is it fixable, I don't know. But I have noticed a lot of dogs who are very good at flyball who jump agility jumps very long and flat.
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Re USDAA jump heights (as AAC are the same)

    I have a pic somewhere of Kaiden, who jumps 16 as he is 13.25 tall, jumping a spread where you could easily put the 26 inch bars underneath him ;)

    There is always specials (or what ever USDAA calls it) if you don't want to jump the height your dog measures at. I do like that the jump is often at least a little bit of an effort for most dogs. But then again I come from the horse world where being able to get over the jump cleanly IS part of the question the course asks you.
     
  12. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    I am very curious if he'd jump the same way if he'd never played flyball. And it makes me unsure what I should do with young mister Bean.
     
  13. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    My suggestion would be to do both at the same time. So the dog can learn there are different jumping styles for different jobs.
     
  14. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Backup is extremely flat. It's been blamed on FB, a lot. That said, he was flat even in FB at 6-12 in jumps.
     
  15. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    IME the less the jumping effort the flatter the jump and the faster the gallop the flatter the jump.
     
  16. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    I think the dogs jump how they think they can get away with.

    I have a garden fence that is between 22 and 30 inches. At the low side Ruby can hit it in stride and clear it at a full gallop. Its more of a hurdle than a jump. She can clear the 30 inch fence all day but she has to collect herself first.

    Shoulder height is not much of a jump for a dog. Except for the big dogs, there is a lot of opportunity at the AKC jump heights to jump under the shoulder height. That seems really strange to me.
     
  17. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    I'm still up in the air about running my youngest dog in USDAA. He may or may not measure into the 16" class. I entered him in one USDAA trial, in performance, where he was measured by the first judge at 16.25", and by the CMJ at 16". The CMJ really took his time to do it right. The dog then got his 2 measurements for his permanent AKC card, both at 16". But to be fair, in AKC, he's smack in the middle of the height class, so neither judge was making a huge effort out of it.

    I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, that he measures 16". But I know that it won't take much for him to measure over, and that the Staffords are hard to get an accurate measurement on because of the muscling over the shoulders.

    But yes, I'm not jumping my 16", 38 pound dog at 22". That is an unfair effort to ask. I also won't run him in USDAA performance, where his competition will all be significantly taller and lighter than him. We can't be competitive there, and he's a dog who can be competitive. We'll stick to AKC, where he jumps a fair 16"; and I hope to someday take him to World Team Tryouts as I did with his dam. There, he'd jump 18", which is also a fair height for him.

    AKC height cutoffs are fair. It does make it a little harder for dogs at the bottom of the height vs at the top, but that's always going to be the case. That is showcased a little in the 16" class, where I am. The smaller BCs in that class tend to measure 17-18", and weigh maybe 25 pounds. Most of the dogs in the 16" class have a more square body type that when shorter, isn't competitive against the lanky body type of the BCs.

    However, whatever your dog's height, the most it will have to jump over it's shoulder height is 10%. So no dog is asked for extreme effort, regardless of size.

    USDAA heights are not so fair. A dog just over 12", asked to jump 16", is jumping 33% over it's shoulder. A dog just over 16", asked to jump 22", is jumping 37% over it's shoulder. A dog just over 21", jumping 26", is jumping 24% over it's shoulder. So, the little dogs are potentially being asked for a much greater effort than the taller dogs. And the BCs, which dominate those taller classes, are much better suited to the extreme jumping than most smaller dogs.

    Of course, if your dog slots nicely into a jump height, it doesn't matter so much. If my Pirate manages to measure into 16" for USDAA, I'll probably go back to just thinking the USDAA heights are a bit stupid, but not concern myself about it.
     
  18. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    To play devils advocate.. why shouldn't the jump effort be an actual effort? I can tell you my sub 12 inch dogs can easily jump 16 inches.. Why should a healthy dog have an issue?

    Dekka has laid down runs that were as fast as the BCs running in the higher catagories. Smaller but still powerful dogs can make sharper turns and make up time over taller lighter dogs. Sure some course will be less technical and you you wouldn't be as competative, but on a more technical course, as has been mentioned in this thread, smaller dogs have the advantage.

    I personally find the lower height categories a bit strange (I do CPE as well). I just think agility SHOULD be test of physical skill as well as training. That is why bars count.

    But then again I find CPE funny too as I can have a bar, or an off course and still Q at level 3 and that refusals never count.. I love the competitiveness of AAC where the dog has to run fast, run clean and (if in regular) make an acutal jumping effort. That said I do enjoy CPE because its so 'easy' after doing AAC.
     
  19. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    It's more the series of jumps that tends to get them. When they are trying to do them at a run with changing angles and jump spacing requires constant changes in collection/extension. As a single hurdle yeah it's not high. When trying to do a series of them faster than anyone else of somewhat similar height, that's when you start getting a challenge :)

    Mira has knocked quite a few bars in her day. To beat the lighter faster BCs we have to run as efficiently as possible so she pretty much leaves hairs on uprights and clears the bars tightly. Which is great except if I don't cue two obstacles ahead like I'm supposed to and she tries to change direction over the bar, she doesn't have a margin for error. So it's on me to give her the info she needs because I like that she jumps so efficiently...she's one of the smallest in her jump height...she's gotta!

    As a single hurdle? Heck she's cleanly cleared a 4' woven wire fence without much effort. Different sort of challenge.
     
  20. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    It's one thing to clear a jump or 2 that requires serious effort, and another thing to do so 18 times in 30 seconds. And then do it again in another hour or so.

    This is a 15.5" dog jumping 20":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYx0C-nx6Kw

    This is the same dog, jumping 16":
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz_4KBhAzWw

    This dog can easily jump out of a 30" X-pen, but it's a whole nother story to be asked to jump repeatedly, at speed, several times in the course of a weekend.
     

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