Ivermectin for Dogs?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Cheetah, Dec 1, 2012.

  1. Cheetah

    Cheetah Fluffy Corgi Addict

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    I need opinions on using Ivermectin for dogs to prevent fleas and heartworm. Like the kind you get at feed stores. How valid is this? How safe is it? What if I have a collie breed? I have read about reactions in collie breeds. All dog people who know anything about this, especially those who have experience with it, please give me your feedback! Ready set go. =3
     
  2. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    With my usual heartworm meds off the market, I've had to switch to one that includes Ivermectin. Of course I'm terrified given Gusto's genetic background. The vet assures me the level is low enough that, even if he had the issue, it wouldn't affect him. I've wondered if the extreme neurological reaction he had to his Advil episode points towards the glitch in the blood/brain barrier.

    I'm having him tested. It's a do-it-yourself cheek swab. Among other things, he is at the horse barn often enough with me that I worry about him licking up a drop of horse wormer or something.

    Without a confirmed mutation-free test, I wouldn't let any dog with a collie background near livestock ivermectin. It is much more concentrated than dog heartworm meds, and that isn't a gamble I'd be willing to take. I'm not sure I'd even risk it with a dog that doesn't have collie in the background.
     
  3. Oko

    Oko Silence, peasants.

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    I haven't done it myself and I do not know the risks with collies exactly, but I know a lot of people who have livestock and border collies do use ivermectin without getting a reaction from their dogs.
     
  4. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    The issue with any dog that has collie heritage is that a small percentage have a gene mutation that basically makes it so that certain drugs cross the blood-brain barrier and can't cross back out (if I understand correctly). Therefore, tiny doses can be very toxic. With Ivermectin, it only takes 1/200th of the normal toxic dose for a dog to kill a dog affected by the gene.

    From what I've read, BC are actually pretty low on the list of breeds affected, but certainly some are.

    Like I said, it isn't a gamble I'd take with my dog. I expect many, many people do it with no issues.
     
  5. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    I thought of using ivermectin but I just can't bring myself to risk it. Personally, I'd try to find another route, or do this DNA test if that can assure your dog won't react.
     
  6. PlottMom

    PlottMom The Littlest Hound

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    We use a tube of zimectrin gold horse wormer. Liz's breeder uses it on all her dogs without incident, so we picked up the habit. I believe the dose was 1/10th of a cc for every 10 pounds, so one tube lasts us forever.



    ETA: I have hounds & a probably catahoula bulldog - if I had a collie breed I probably wouldn't risk it.
     
  7. thehoundgirl

    thehoundgirl Active Member

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    My friend used that on her ACD puppy, she overdosed him on it and he became blind within a few hours. He is ok now and can see, but it was scary. She didn't know about it being fatal to herding dogs. Even though they don't have a collie background, I'm just not risking it.
     
  8. Lyzelle

    Lyzelle New Member

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    It can be very, very easy to overdose a dog with the livestock Ivermectin. I don't recommend it to anyone, of any breed of dog, without first knowing that they are confident that they are knowledgeable in their measurements and that they won't overdose their dog. Personally, I'm terrible(dyslexic) with numbers. So while I KNOW the dosage information, I don't chance it myself.

    Besides that point, I also wouldn't give it to any herding breed without the gene test first.

    Just better safe than sorry with this sort of thing.
     
  9. Shakou

    Shakou New Member

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    I had a women once show me how to give it to my dogs in the form of the horse wormer paste, and it was extremely easy. HOWEVER, Ivermectin is a sketchy drug to work with, and if you don't know the exact dosage, you could make your dog seriously sick.
     
  10. sillysally

    sillysally Obey the Toad.

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    I thought about it briefly when buying dewormer for the horse before, but am concerned about getting the dosage wrong.
     
  11. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    I've heard that the paste isn't always properly mixed (not always evenly distributed throughout the tube)... of course if you're giving the whole syringe to a horse it doesn't matter but if you're only giving a few ccs to a dog it's less certain how much of the drug you're giving them. Just be careful! It's one of those things that once you know there's a problem it's already serious.
     
  12. Maliraptor

    Maliraptor Bite me.

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    The horse paste tubes scare me, because the dosage is so VERY different. The paste is a different % from the liquid, which is different from the Monthly Pills. I've even heard VETS give the incorrect dosage for the liquid wormer.
     
  13. OutlineACDs

    OutlineACDs Crazy Dog!

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    Wow, lots of different information on here.

    I use ivermectin on my ACD's. 1/10 of a ml/10 lbs. Never had an issue. I have two friends with shelties who do the same.

    I'd actually heard the opposite from BostonBanker. I thought (read this in a study a while back) that the dose needed to hurt an MDR1 dog would be higher than the normal monthly heartworm dose by a pretty significant amount. The study said giving immodium to MDR1 dogs was more dangerous than giving monthly ivermectin for heartworms.
     
  14. sassafras

    sassafras mushinois

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    The doses used for heartworm preventative are low enough to be safe even for dogs with the MDR1 mutation. Washington State University, who does the MDR1 testing, has a lot of good information:

    Overview:
    http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-vcpl/

    Drugs of concern (note that pretty much ALL heartworm preventatives are on the list, including ones that have a reputation for being "safe" - safe vs not safe is all dose dependent, not drug dependent):
    http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/drugs.aspx

    FAQs (with a special notation about heartworm preventatives):
    http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/FAQ.aspx

    How to test your dog:
    http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/test.aspx

    Having said all that, I would use the liquid and shake the bottle up well so the drug is evenly distributed throughout the suspension. The pastes make me a bit nervous because you can't really shake them up like that and I worry about "hot spots".
     
  15. YodelDogs

    YodelDogs New Member

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    Same here. I buy Ivomec injectable. As OutlineACDs said, you give 1/10 of a ml/cc per 10 pounds orally, once per month. I use one of those really small syringes to measure. A 50 ml bottle is normally under $40 and does my entire household for about 2 years or so. A huge savings over buying monthly pills and just as effective.

    Note: The above measurements are for heartworm prevention. The dosage can be increased for de-worming. (It does not work for tapeworms.) I do not have measurements for de-worming though so you would have to research it.
     
  16. BostonBanker

    BostonBanker Active Member

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    As I said, the heartworm dose is supposed to be completely safe. I wasn't saying it wasn't. But the more concentrated livestock Ivermectin has a much smaller range of safety. In the grand scheme of things, I'd rather just pay for the HeartGuard than risk it. I watched Gusto with one severe neurological reaction to meds once; I'm not sure I could take a second time.
     
  17. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    I personally will NOT use straight ivermectin. Yes, it will prevent heartworms and many intestinal parasite. No, it will not do a thing for fleas. Ivermectin is what is in Heartgard. BUT, the dose you give with feed store ivermectin is much, MUCH larger than the dose in Heartgard. I have a collie I have not yet tested fro MDR1. It is safe to give him Heartgard because the dose is so small. So that's what I do. Based on his reaction ot anestheisa, he is very likely not even a carrier of the mutation, but I'm not going to put my dog at risk without knowing.

    Even dogs that are not collies can be affected by ivermection. Mixed breeds with an unknown family history, other breeds known to have the MDR1 mutation can also be affected by ivermectin. We had a husky mix in a couple weeks ago, and based on HIS reaction to anesthesia he very likely is affected by the MDR1 mutation or at least is a carrier. You just can't predict it in mixes. He may not have had collie in him for many generations, but if one MDR1 gene continued to be passed along - there it is.

    So, I guess if you really want to do this, and you have a breed ever affected by MDR1 or a mix breed, I would highly, highly recommend testing for MDR1 first.
     
  18. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    Oh, also, Trifexis did a collie-specific study on their product, and it was safe for collies. I'm not sure if any other brand has done this. Since Trifexis is basically Interceptor paired with Comfortis, I'd assume those two are safe as well. But as I said, I use Heartgard and n the small doses in the preventative it should be safe unless you have a VERY sensitive dog. Milbemycin (interceptor) is on the MDR1 drug list right alongside Ivermectin and Selamectin (revolution). It's not JUST ivermectin that affects MDR1 dogs. It's many others. Loperamide is another one.
     
  19. Saeleofu

    Saeleofu Active Member

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    NOT ONLY HERDING DOGS/COLLIES ARE AFFECTED BY MDR1!

    Here's a list of all breeds it's been found in. If you dog is one of these breeds, or a mixed breed, THERE IS A RISK your dog is at least a carrier unless BOTH parents have been tested and were homozygous negative for the mutation.

    Australian Shepherd
    Miniature Australian Shepherd
    Border Collie
    Collie
    English Shepherd
    German Shepherd
    Long-haired Whippet (NOT A HERDING BREED!)
    McNab
    Old English Sheepdog
    Shetland Sheepdog
    Slken windhound (NOT A HERDING BREED!)

    My guess is any breed that has any of these breeds in its history could also potentially carry it, any BYB dog of any breed could carry it (you can mix in dogs and generations later nobody would know), etc.
     

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