Is it cruel?

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Muttkip, Jul 13, 2012.

  1. Muttkip

    Muttkip LABRADERP!

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    Stumbled across this cursing youtube, and watching it...the first thing that came to my mind is why is that poor dog still alive?!

    Personally I'm finding it cruel to keep the poor dog alive, constantly living in fear and lashing out at everything and everyone. But the people that own him however are another story.

    Not to mention this dog is a "Pit Bull" and a MAJOR liability if he was to attack or kill someone which is what they fear he'll do.


    What do you think?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40yVx3sBQgo
     
  2. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Okay, I haven't even finished watching it, but my first thought is WHY is that dog on a PRONG collar?!?! They're making everything about a BILLION times worse.

    Theres three parts. I'll comment after Ive finished watching.

    Oh the dog is afraid of people, out of his mind, so lets kick him! and corner him!
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2012
  3. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    Okay, my thoughts are that, that is the kind of dog Cesar does help with. That dog is a huge danger and liability to people when he gets over aroused. Yes it would be better to keep him under threshold, but he seems to go from fine to nuts in a split second. Personally, I think the progress he made with the dog was fantastic, but I would never ever allow that dog anywhere without a muzzle on.

    I don't think it's cruel to keep him alive, because he is happy, he can be happy and friendly, he just needs work, and a lot of it, because he's learned to lash out harshly and frequently. It more than likely would have been my recommendation to put the dog down, because not a lot of people are willing or able to handle that kind of severe aggresssion, but the dog loves them, and they obviously love the dog. I think in cases like this is where Cesars suppression training can help quite a bit, but I would get the prong off the dog, supress the behavior, and clicker train/behavior modifiication how he percieves people. It can be done that way, but it takes way better timing than his owners have I think.

    What would be cruel is pronoucing him cured, ever, and then putting him in a situation where he's going to fail. I don't think he might ever be more than alert around people. Even laying on his side he wasn't relaxed, and that's something that makes me not trust him.

    Idk. It was a very strange episode.
     
  4. Dizzy

    Dizzy Sit! Good dog.

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    I'm still waiting for someone to have their face eaten off after following his advice from these programmes...

    Would you walk this dog unmuzzled after his 'rehab'? Even if he is more relaxed... :confused:
     
  5. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    I don't think its cruel to keep him alive. I think its unfair to rehab fear aggressive dogs by flooding.
    I was shocked by how aggressive he was and showed my Mum, first thing she said was "Harry would be like that if you put him in that situation" and she's probably right. Harry we fear agro/reactive with people. He boarded safely, was managed and even could be loose with visitors if we felt confident enough in THEM to follow our rules of "don't look at him, touch him or be nervous of him" and he did have plenty of people that he would lovingly sit beside and get his ears patted by them.
    Put him in a prong, muzzle, in an enclosed space on a tight leash and have a stranger walk into his house and provide no clear direction to him in this situation and you'd probably get exactly the same reaction.
    We managed Harry's aggression for 4 good years, didn't PTS because he was the happiest, sweetest, most loving little messed up dog we'd ever met. I do think he could have been rehabbed succesfully but that didn't happen and in the end he was PTS scared and sore after we messed up, someone did come in unnanounced and when standing firm and saying "SIT" clearly to him probably would have stopped him, screaming and flailing landed a bite to the calf an a dead dog.

    I don't think Cesar is this dogs last chance at rehab, but he probably will be after he's through with him. What I've been taught of flooding is that it either work entirely well, or entirely ruins the dog - not a risk I'd be willing to take.
     
  6. TahlzK

    TahlzK New Member

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    The only time I would find this cruel is if the dog lived in constant fear, in his own home. If that isn't the case, I don't see a point in putting him down if they can manage him. I understand he's a risk but I wouldn't put a dog down if the owners were responsible. I know accidents happen but I still couldn't kill a dog because it could happen. If I thought like that, I wouldn't own Serenity.

    That's so sad, I'm sorry :( Did you choose to put him down by choice or were you forced?
     
  7. mrose_s

    mrose_s BusterLove

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    It made us relise it had to happen but if given the choice we would have waited a few days to spoil him and get it done at home. Or he could have been impounded while we fought to get him out and if they chose to PTS from there (which they would have if they tested him in that situation) then we wern't allowed to be present for it. He was a poor little guy that should have never been brought into this world.
    I have more regrets for that poor dog than any of them.
     
  8. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    But if you've suppressed the behavior how would you ever know if you've successfully changed how he perceives people?


    I do not think it is cruel to keep a dog alive if he lives happily in his home with his family so long as the household doesn't have a ton of visitors. However I would probably never trust that dog around strangers without a muzzle on, regardless of training method. Any dog who is that quick to bite (as opposed to using other aggressive behaviors first) when threatened is not a dog to trust. I do think he can be trained to the point where he feels safe and behaves well, but because biting seems to be his first reaction to getting upset I still would not trust him.

    I do think it's cruel to treat aggression like Cesar does (and like his owners were before), when you do that the dog still suffers as much as he did before when visitors come, he just has to do it in silence. he feels the same or worse about visitors. The only benefit to the dog is that once he stops reacting he gets hurt by his owners less. I'd really rather see a dog like that put down then treated like he has been in those videos. Luckily those aren't the only two options available to dog owners. I just don't get people being so happy that they've made their dog so terrified of them that they are afraid to react. Strangers used to be your dogs worst nightmare, now you are.
     
  9. CharlieDog

    CharlieDog Rude and Not Ginger

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    The good, and bad thing about suppression is you never entirely erase the underlying issue. The suppression would only be short term, even Cesars form will only work for so long. And I never said I'd flood the dog. That's mostly cesars mo though.

    You suppress it short term to keep the dog and people safe, while simultaneously working on changing the underlying feeling. It can be done, but it takes a long time for something like that.
     
  10. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    Did anyone REALLY hope the dog would tag Caesar in the head when he was on the porch and Caeser was on the ground at eye level?

    I might work with that dog, I might put it down.

    Honestly, I don't think it's cruel, I don't think it's uber fearful, I read it as slightly unstable and lacking in a ton of control. I cringed when the try-hard owners made the stupid "beating him to be a fighting dog" comment. Yes, because human aggression, not dog aggression, is what fighting dogs are needing. Not every upset, beat down, reactive, frustrated, and aggressive pit bull is a fighting dog.

    The prong isn't helping anything except control but pushing the dog over it's threshold is only making it worse.

    It obviously has no reliable control, no obedience, nothing that you can use when walking, greeting, etc. I would start there in the the house, in the safe zone, and move to the driveway, slowly.

    Personally I do find dogs like this of this breed unnerving for the BSL fire but it's not fair to push a whole agenda on one dog.
     
  11. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    I've seen this episode... from what I see ON THIS EPISODE, I lean towards putting the dog to sleep. However, that's only what I see on TV. I don't see the dog's day to day life. It's likely his comfort level and the safety of the community at large could be vastly improved with good management strategies. Whether or not the owners can/will implement that management to a degree that keeps him secure isn't something I have any way of knowing. It looks promising that they muzzle him.

    If the dog were mine, I do feel I would euthanize it, tbh. But he's not, so there are too many factors for me to say.
     
  12. smkie

    smkie pointer/labrador/terrier Staff Member

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    why why why can't people understand that dogs have all the same emotions we have and lash out imho less than we would if the situation were reversed. Whatever happened to allowing a dog to decompress in quiet, and have slow and careful building up of trust.? Oh yeah, we are the instant gratification people. Must have what we want in an instant and if it isn't that way, then throw it out. Healing takes time. Trust takes even longer to rebuild. Memories do not fade, they are forgiven.
     
  13. Xandra

    Xandra Active Member

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    I would 100% advocate putting that dog down. To me it's iffy having, say, a golden doodle that bites people. A pit bull? And then putting it on TV? IMO if you are at all interested in doing the breed any favors (not to mention if you care about the people he could seriously injure should he escape) you should not keep APBTs or dogs that resemble APBTs when they regularly attempt to bite the crap out of people. I always kinda assumed that would be a no-brainer but apparently not.
     
  14. Kaydee

    Kaydee Guest

    I'm sorry, even as a bully advocate, a dog like this of ANY breed...euth is a more gentle humane option than trying to rehab. Obviously a very troubled soul, even in an ideal situation...a remote area away from other animals and with one dedicated experienced trainer...this dog might still be a breakdown waiting to happen.
     
  15. crysania

    crysania New Member

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    Oh gosh I HATE this episode. "Make him surrender"...*sigh* Why do people watch this show?

    Ears back head low -- he's SCARED. And all this jerk does is follow him around with a camera. :-(

    To add, I'm not sure about euthanasia or not. It's an episode of CM's show so the dog is cornered and forced to act out. I'm not sure how the dog REALLY is when he's not put under such stresses nor how the dog would be with proper rehabilitation, not this sort of nonsense.
     
  16. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    This dog died a long time ago... he seriously attacked one of his owners while she applied "cesars way". :( Of course everyone who he consults is forced to sign a binding confidentiality agreement so the only reason I know this is because the behaviorist I apprentice with knows the rescue that he was surrendered to and who put him to sleep. Very sad. It makes you wonder what could've come of Buddy if he was trained with love, kindness and understanding from day one.

    I feel like suppression is the absolute worst method with a volatile dog like Buddy.... it's terrifying. If you slip up, if you don't continue to apply more and more force and intimidation, if you underestimate that dog or get too comfortable for one second... Bam! That ticking time bomb goes off and someone is badly injured or dead. And all the headlines say "Pit Bull Attacks! He snapped out of nowhere". But the thing is its not out of nowhere. Its not that dogs fault that he was taught that he would be hurt if he gave warnings, and that his aggression was only suppressed and worsened instead of healed. Luckily Cesar has a star studded team of lawyers behind him hiding all of these cases.

    Eta sorry I didn't realize this thread was old... Weird!
     
  17. Barbara!

    Barbara! New Member

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    Yes. Yes. Yes. I do find it cruel to keep a dog that is THIS fearful alive. Not to mention it's a pit bull, and human aggressive pit bulls are unacceptable in my eyes. It's good they tried to rehabilitate him...but honestly I personally would probably have just put him to sleep. He was obviously very unstable. Poor dog.
     
  18. Aleron

    Aleron New Member

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    It is really, really hard to judge a dog based on how it behaves on The Dog Whisperer. No doubt these dogs have issues. But you take a dog with issues and have a camera crew come into their house and a guy who is threatening/manhandling them and...well...you're going to see the dog at their very, very worst. Add to that the editing that goes on, which is designed to show you the most shocking footage they managed to get during the hours or days or whatever that they were there.

    My oldest Belgian was "evaluated" by a old school, dominance based trainer when she was sent back to her breeder for aggression issues at 10 months old. The evaluation consisted of him walking up to her and flipping her over on her back while wearing AC gloves. I guess it would have included other things too but she bit him and he firmly stated that she should be euthanized because she obviously had "dominance aggression". He repeatedly told her breeder she is making a mistake keeping the dog alive, even after I had her. The issues she had in her former home turned out to be that she was resource guarding from the tween and teen girls of the house and the girls had been encouraged to smack and pin her for threatening them...so she had started snarling and snapping at them whenever they approached her in certain settings. They also felt these were dominance related aggression issues. If you'd have listened to these people talk about Loki and seen video clips of her at her worst, you may think "this is a dog with some serious issues". Really though, she's a pretty bomb proof, happy and rather outgoing Belgian. I have never worried about her with people and have traveled all over this part of the country with her over the years. But she's a dog who won't tolerate unfair harsh treatment from people either and depending on your mindset about dog behavior you might find that to be unacceptable and a sign of "dominance issues".
     
  19. CrazyDogLady

    CrazyDogLady New Member

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    I don't find it cruel, as the dog trusted the owners and seemed happy.
    Granted, I would have recommended him being PTS.
    If I owned him, I wouldn't worry about training, but managing. Crating when unknown people are around, no walks unless its at night to avoid other people, etc.
     
  20. Emily

    Emily Rollin' with my bitches

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    Loki's only "issue" is that people are far too slow to recognize that she's Queen of the Universe. :D ALL HAIL! :hail:
     

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