Interesting article about origin of dogs

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Romy, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    Here is a neat article about a study done on African village dogs, which suggests indigenous african breeds originated in Africa, from a separate population of canids than Euro or Asian dogs.

    I do think it's funny they were surprised pharaoh hounds tested out as being a non african breed, since they are a recent recreation and not the same lineage as dogs in the egyptian tombs.

    African Village Dogs Are Genetically Much More Diverse Than Modern Breeds

     
  2. protodog

    protodog New Member

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    I always end up yelling at the TV during Westminster and Eukanuba because the announcers continue to claim that Ibizans and Pharaoh hounds are the dogs on the pyramids even though we've known for a handful of years now that they are modern breeds. Drives me crazy!

    I doubt Ostrander was actually surprised about the results concerning the pharaoh hound because she was head of the team that showed the breed was modern, not ancient. Cool article. Thanks for posting it.
     
  3. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Thanks for posting. This is of particular interest to me, as I've been looking into various theories of evolution and domestication of dogs for a while.

    Exactly. Those announcers drive me batty. They say all kinds of misleading things during the show. Besides that, they do so much anthropomorphizing that they just sound dumb.
     
  4. MPP

    MPP petperson

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    How about Chihuahuas? Are they actually indigenous to South America, which might indicate yet a third point of domestication?
     
  5. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    The article says they are DNA mapping American dogs right now, so I'm really curious to see what they come up with for chis. Xolos too. There is a body of archaeological evidence for trade with Asia in pre columbian times, so I wouldn't be surprised if they shared some heritage with the Asian dogs. Personally I think it's fascinating that the three big landrace wild/feral dog types are dingos, caanan dogs, and carolina dogs. And they all look identical.
     
  6. MPP

    MPP petperson

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    I think somebody once did a study of Indian pariah dogs. Seems that after X generations* of catch-as-catch-can breeding, all the dogs looked pretty much the same: in the 30 lb. range, pointed muzzle, curled tail, short brown fur.

    *And not that many generations, either, as far as I can remember. Seems to be an ur-dog template!
     
  7. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That's one of the main reasons I do not believe dogs are descended from wolves. If they were, they should all start reverting to wolfy beasts after a few generations. Instead they revert like you describe. There is probably some extinct wild canid that looked like our feral dogs.
     
  8. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    That's really interesting, thanks for posting!

    I agree about the reversions; we have the term "brown dog breed" to describe those that are so mixed, there's no telling WHAT went into them. And they do all end up looking quite alike. We're fairly sure that Vegas is one of those "so mixed she's a throwback" dog.
     
  9. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    This has been my contention for some time, but anytime I suggest that dogs may well not be directly descended from wolves at all, but from a smaller dog-like animal, everyone thinks I'm crazy. I always thought this too, was interesting food for thought.... albeit an unpopular theory among the dogs are wolves crowd. lol.

    Darren Naish: Tetrapod Zoology: Controversial origins of the domestic dog
     
  10. jesirose

    jesirose New Member

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    I'm confused. Does the article say Rhodesian Ridgebacks are not from Africa?

    It's too early for reading...
     
  11. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I agree that there are likely more than one domestication point for dogs. What do you guys think about northern breeds? Is it likely they are indeed descended from wolves whereas other breeds are not?

    ETA: THe Ibizan Hound/Pharaoh hound thing drives me crazy too, lol. Pharaoh hounds are only about 200 years old, not the dogs in the tombs.
     
  12. MPP

    MPP petperson

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    An AWESOME post! My head is just churning with ideas as this-and-that information falls out of one pattern and clicks into another. Thanks so much, Doberlov
     
  13. Amanda885

    Amanda885 New Member

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    very interesting article and topic! good find! thanks for sharing!
     
  14. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Mpp...did you read that whole article from Darrin Naish? I think he brings in some fantastically interesting points. He refers a lot to Janice Koler-Matznick's research. I haven't dug into her work yet, but am going to. There must be some good info there, it sounds like. I think this research is important because dogs need to be seen as the unique animals they are and not constantly viewed as watered down wolves. They share some similarities, but imo....they are more different than similar. There probably was more than one domestication event, sending different branches down different paths.

    It is interesting how we see some theories and think we have it all figured out. LOL. Then along comes another brilliant theory...new studies etc.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  15. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Here's another interesting article...more to boggle the mind:

    Small Dogs Evolved in Middle East - ScienceNOW

     
  16. MPP

    MPP petperson

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    The team found that the version of IGF1 carried by all small dogs is found in very few large dogs and no wild canines. But a very similar form of the gene is found in gray wolves from the Middle East.


    Do you think those might be the Ethiopian wolves the article spoke about?

    Also, I noticed that the Science Now article repeats that "Scientists agree that today's Fidos came from the domestication of the gray wolf." Well, obviously, NOT all scientists DO agree with this. I really, really was impressed with Naish's hypothesis of the long-vanished canid ancestor. Dogs really don't act all that much like wolves in many areas of their lives. Feral/pariah dog populations don't revert to wolf-like body types or behaviors, as one would expect.

    I'll have to read the article again, more calmly, to really absorb what he had to say. An excellent post, Doberluv!
     
  17. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Yes, many times you see things written like that...that "scientists agree" when they don't...not about a lot of things. It IS a very controversial subject and nothing is proven one way or the other....as far as I can gather at any rate. I need to re-read these articles too when I can spend more time, as I forget what I just read half the time. :doh: Yes, I think Naish has some compelling arguments there. Now, I've read that one several times. LOL. Have you read Coppinger's book? That's fascinating too and one significant part of their theory is argued by Naish. (the part about such a large animal getting enough garbage from humans at that time) That would make a huge difference to the whole story.
     

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