Improving Your Breed

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by WorkofHeart, Jan 8, 2010.

  1. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    However, since there is no test to show a predisposition for it and no CLEAR CUT proof it's genetic (although I too believe it is genetic), breeders will tiptoe around it and make excuses when it happens. Therefore, like CEA, PRA, and DM, bloat too will continue to plague the breed.
     
  2. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    The standard doesn't state HOW they get there, just how they should look. ;) In the US, you'd be hard pressed to find a Collie with naturally tipping, untouched ears. It does occur though. We've got quite a few dogs out there in service work that have one prick and one naturally tipped - the prick ear is the one with the organization's mandatory tattoo and the scar tissue causes it to go prick, but the natural ear IS natural. :)

    And just to add, heavy ears are not usually the problem with the Collies. Left to their own devices, most will pull them up nicely on their head by themselves, but they will also go prick while doing so, especially during teething and/or first estrus. There are some with heavy ears, but that's not the norm.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2010
  3. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    Just to add ... the natural ears were a little more common 30 yrs ago ...

    (Don't laugh at the kid ... it's me ... :p)

    All of these dogs have natural ears ...
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Artfish

    Artfish Drivey and Intense

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    Katie, good information, thank you! I love the ears of the dogs in your photo; the natural look has the best expression, but that's my non-collie-fancier opinion. :)

    Regarding bloat, I think it is genetic first above all else. We have plenty of deep-chested animals that do not bloat. I believe something went wrong for a lot of breeds and now that we have the genetics, diet and exercise can contribute. A lot of people will say "do this/do that," but plenty of dogs have bloated on soaked kibble, kibble without citric acid, raw diet, just water, exercise, no exercise, I don't think it really matters. If your dog has the genetics for bloat, it WILL bloat, it's just a matter of time. My GSD mix has bloated several times already. Thank goodness no torsion yet but we keep the GasX very handy and if I don't hear burps or if I think he is uncomfortable, he gets at least two pills immediately. We are an hour away from any E-vet so this is the best we can do and yes we did have one ER visit already (but he burped during the car ride... doofus). He'll bloat again for sure, we just watch him very closely and are always ready to give GasX. I'll give it WITH meals even if I feel he is stressing a lot.
     
  5. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    Thanks!

    You won't see the low set natural ears like the dogs in my other pic ... that was another era. While breeding for better (tighter) earset, you often end up with an ear that wants to go prick too easy.

    [​IMG]

    Ears are pretty low on my list of qualities, as you can see. These guys had tipped ears long enough to finish their CHs, then I let them go as they would. :p
     
  6. Artfish

    Artfish Drivey and Intense

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    Katie, all beautiful but the two on the ends are GORGEOUS!

    Speaking of bloat, mine is licking the air and the carpet and hacking and pacing so guess who just got two GasX just in case??? Siiiigh.
     
  7. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    The one in the middle is 10 yrs old and hates cameras - he is much more handsome in real life. ;)

    And it sounds to me like your dog is taking extreme measures to get you off the computer!!! :eek: Hope all is well ...
     
  8. PWCorgi

    PWCorgi Priscilla Winifred Corgi

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    This thread is making me want a collie, that is all...


    Oh, and corgi people need to stop breeding such freaking overly-long dogs. Common sense says that'll end badly...
     
  9. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    I started to feel like a thread hog, but no one else was saying anything!! :(

    I think any of the short long dogs are getting too much shorter and too much longer. (OK, it's grammatically incorrect, but you get the point ...)
     
  10. Artfish

    Artfish Drivey and Intense

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    Don't worry, you're making me want collies, too! I also agree with the trend toward breeding for extremes and that is never good. Some dogs are long enough to make snakes jealous.

    My dog's going nutso. Off to give him GasX #3. Keeping close watch on him. He's done this often enough that I don't panic at this point. We'll be okay, thanks for the well wishes. :)
     
  11. colliewog

    colliewog Collies&Terriers, Oh My!

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    Off thread topic, but have you considered a bloat kit?

    CHF Logo Items

    Scroll down to bloat kit ...

     
  12. Artfish

    Artfish Drivey and Intense

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    I have thought of it, probably should go ahead and get it and see if the vet can teach me to tube him. Kinda stupid of me not to have one if I'm so far from an e-vet.

    ETA: Already calming down. No more licking, less pacing. Gotta love GasX.
     
  13. Spiritwind

    Spiritwind New Member

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    As far as Collie ears. They don't usually need to be taped to stand erect, most of the time the dogs ears will go up just fine on their own... and be prick....so often times they do need to have the tips taped over for a little while (usually through teething) to tip correctly... though not always.

    [​IMG]
    This is a bitch I sold as a puppy, who came back to me a little over a year ago (but she now lives with a breeder friend of mine in Ohio).... her ears were really barely touched as a puppy.... and here she is at 3 yrs of age. I call her pretty natural eared. Her sister, who my brother owns is the same way. Now her rough brother, Pete, that my mom has, his ears are actually low... very low...

    This is Pete (rough tri).. as you can see his ears are a bit to low, and I taped them for almost a year!! and every time they came out, the ears flopped... they really just come up at the bases, and fall foward.

    [​IMG]
    Ben (8 yr old smooth blue - he was also my first champion - ears haven't been touched since he was a about 8 months old) and Pete...

    I have found, smooths are some times harder to get good tipping ears on (compared to roughs) because roughs obviously have more hair on their ears, which helps to weight the ears down. At least with the roughs I have had, as my roughs are VERY hairy headed!! LOL



    Honestly, if breeders want to be to stupid to recognize they have an issue with bloat, then that is their own problem I guess. There are certain lines of dogs I will not TOUCH because of obvious bloat issues. I know there is not proof it's genetic, but I feel MOST cases are genetic in nature.

    I have had 2 Collies bloat.... the first bloat I had was in a 7 MONTH old rough male. He bloated on an empty stomach, in the middle of the night. He survived and was neutered. Almost exactly 1 yr later his father (owned by a friend of mine) died of bloat.... also on an empty stomach!

    If breeders can't look at their own pedigrees and see all the dogs that have bloated.. and not realize SOME THING is wrong here, then they really need to stop breeding. It's not just some random dog bloats... it's generation after generation! It really bothers me when breeders just sweep an issue under the rug, so to speak, and act like it's not a problem.... especially a life threatening issue! Or they make up stupid excuses to justify it.

    It cost me $1500 to save my bloating puppy 6-7 yrs ago. And that was the low end of the estimate for ER treatment, because I caught it early and he was only hospitalized for 36 hrs!!

    I'm looking at a 4 generation pedigree right now. In that pedigree, just on the dams side of the family I can name SEVEN dogs that have bloated. That is just one side of the pedigree, in 4 generations. This pedigree is based on a pretty popular line too. The two dogs I had who bloated are closely related to the dogs on this pedigree.
     
  14. noodlerubyallie

    noodlerubyallie Sprayin' the spiders

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    Dobermans: DCM is the mysterious and sudden killer. Everyone knows about it, worries about it, and there's nothing we can do about it but try to breed away from dogs we know died of it.

    Thyroid issues, liver issues, cancer, elbow/hip dysplasia...you name it, Dobermans are pretty commonly afflicted with it.

    As a result, most dogs don't live past their 10th or 11th birthday.

    Temperaments are big issue. BYB's and breeders who breed dogs without any regard to temperament/health are ruining this breed. They are creating unstable dogs that give others a bad rap, and Dobermans don't need help with that.
     
  15. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    on the cresties id like to see an improvment on the hairless skin...
    too many breeders seem to say "dealing with skin issues comes with the breed" and i dont think that should be the case.

    id also like to see the abilities that brought the breed to the world, as much as the breed is NOW a companion breed, many still have strong ratting and sight hunting instincts, id like to see this being brought back to the breed, it may make them less popular in the "pet" group of fanciers, but i feel that instinct is just as important since thats what the bred origionally did, and many still have it in them.
     

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