"If it's not AKC, it's a mutt"

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Gempress, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. Mordy

    Mordy Quigleyfied

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    the general idea is correct, but in practice it works a little differently.

    it really depends on what traits you are looking for, and often backcrossing (breeding one of the F1 hybrids to one of the parents) or outcrossing (breeding to a different breed/cross to get or strenghten a particular trait) are also involved, as are inbreeding and linebreeding.

    just breeding a particular bloodline for 6 or 7 generations still doesn't mean that after that you have a true-breeding new breed. even in the "real" labradoodles (not just F1 crosses) that have been bred for generations in australia, some traits still aren't established reliably, which is why so far they have not reached their goal of creating a hypoallergenic service dog.
     
  2. Dixie

    Dixie The ***** idiot

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    Let me try to break this down a bit in a form of a tree-

    You have 6 Labradors and breed them to 6 poodles to get L/P mixes

    LP(A)_LP(B)_LP(C)_LP(D)_LP(E)_LP(F)_LP(G)_LP(H)_LP(I)_LP(J)_LP(K)_LP(L)_
    _LP(AB)______LP(CD)______LP(EF)______LP(GH)_____LP(IJ)_____LP(KL)___
    ______LP(ABCD)_______________LP(EFGH)_______________LP(IJKL)______
    _______________LP(ABCDEFGH)________________LP(IJKL)_______________
    ___________________________LP(ABCDEFGHIJKL)______________________

    so pup out of litter ABCDEFGHIJKL would be the first generation purebred "Labradoodle" after all of the breeding..... but has anyone though to actually breed two litters of Lab/poodle mixes long enough to get a full generation full-blood (Which takes 12 original dogs to accomplish)

    But many many many many dumbasses out there cant understand why a lab/poodle mix is NOT a breed. it is a mixed breed. You would have to breed for at least 5 continous generations to get the actual "Labradoodle" breed.

    Sorry but until they can give a breed standard for a labradoodle and breed consistently for 5 generations will they ever be considered even a remote breed.

    -Dixie
     
  3. Mordy

    Mordy Quigleyfied

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    i understand what you were trying to say. :)

    generally tho, when developing a new breed, the breeder will not start out with as wide of a base (12 dogs in 6 pairs for example, as you said), but breed more closely to a single blood line, making adjustments as necessary along the generations. it's not just about creating a "genetically purebred" dog (and you can still get throwbacks even after 6 generations or more) but also about firmly establishing desired traits.

    in regards to labradoodles, you might find this article interesting:
    http://www.labradoodle.org/Site/History.aspx
     
  4. PFC1

    PFC1 New Member

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    Mordy and Dixie,

    Everything you say makes complete sense to me. I think this finally answers most my questions about the "Labradoodle." I have heard that the Australian kennel club had formally recognized the breed. I had assumed that this would have required a breeding program like what you two describe above. If that assumption were true, it would be hard to distinguishing individuals who did everything the proper way with respect to the breeding of labradoodels from any of the breeders that had created any of the miriad of man-made AKC registered breeds. If I understand you correctly, the breeders pushing the "labradoodle" did not follow/are not trying to follow this type of regimine to create a new breed.
     
  5. Mordy

    Mordy Quigleyfied

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    PFC1 you are correct - most "breeders" ( i use the term loosely here) of labradoodles just have some labs and poodles and breed them to create F1 crossbreeds, which they are selling for insane amounts of money to ignorant, gullible people.

    at least there are folks seriously putting an effort into establishing true breeding labradoodles, but you can't say the same thing for all those other silly designer "breeds" folks are breeding to make a quick buck, such as peke-a-poos, maltipoos, yorkiepoos, puggles and so on.
     
  6. Beauceron

    Beauceron New Member

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    I understand all of this, however isn't the "labradoodle" a failed attempt? After THIRTY years they couldn't produce a consistant dog, what's going to change that now?
     
  7. Mordy

    Mordy Quigleyfied

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    i wouldn't call it a failed attempt if there are still people interested in pursuing the goal of eventually establishing the labradoodle as a recognized breed.

    yes, the project of creating an "allergy friendly" service dog may have failed, and all the F1 breeders may have damaged its reputation and greatly hampered the effort, but that doesn't mean it can't eventually become a breed.

    after all there are other breeds where dogs of different sizes and coat qualities exist and 30 years isn't exactly a long time if we look at things in terms of breeding.
     
  8. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    I agree with Morty's posts....some day there will be a recognized breed, but not until someone has produced a " standard" ... so far all I see is a mish-mash of both breeds. I would love to see a post here from someone who has bought a mixed breed where ALL the pups looked alike . Until then.. I regard these breeds as products of BYBS and their prices should reflect that.
     
  9. Dixie

    Dixie The ***** idiot

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    +1 for Grammy-

    Your right people who breed these first generation Lab/poodle mixes and then selling them off as a "breed" is pure BS.

    I will echo what has been said, until they can breed consistently with every litter looking similar (in regards to a "standard") then maybe after 30 or so years of breeding a consistent standard will the AKC recognize them (which means it would likely take an additional 60 years of breeding them from here on) So altogether it would take roughly 90 years to get an actual breed and getting a set standard, after they succeed in this then and only then will the AKC even remotely take them seriously.

    As of right now I am thankful that the AKC is refusing to recognize them as a legit breed because until something conisistent comes out they will just be "mutts" - you can find plenty of them for thousands less at your local shelter.

    -Dixie
     
  10. Mikey27X834

    Mikey27X834 New Member

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    The white Mini Schnauzer isn't recognised by the AKC as far as I know, yet it is part of the breed, and is no mutt.
     
  11. BigDog2191

    BigDog2191 Big German Shepherd

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    White German shepherd is like that, too.
     
  12. Mikey27X834

    Mikey27X834 New Member

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    The white Mini is accepted by the vast majority of countries, except from about 5. The UK, Australia, Canada, USA and I may be mistaken, but New Zealand, don't recognise it, but in Germany, the breed's home land, it is recognised.

    Very silly to say it's a mutt if it's not recognised by the AKC, but someone said something to me about a week ago I'll never forget.

    People's opinions don't change what is fact, so don't get frustrated when people talk rubbish.
     
  13. Athebeau

    Athebeau New Member

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    Just to add, it's not just normal pet owners who have this train of thought. I see this behavior and basic snobbery from dog show people as well.

    I had a well known breeder who has been showing/Judging for over 20 years and is well known in the show world call both my Rottweiler and my Dobe (well he is mixed) both Mutts...and in a very sarcastic manner.
    It was said to my Sister who was also showing. The lady inquired about my "Mutts"...then another show person saw my Sister with some Canidae food that our local distributor was displaying at the dog show...and she said, I hope your not feeding that to the Newfoundlands...you can feed that to your sister's other 2 Mutts!!!! My Sister was VERY offended and told her so.

    Ignorance, snobbery and snotty behaviors dominante a lot of peoples personalities....I've learned to ignore them.:)
     
  14. Gwinnywillow

    Gwinnywillow New Member

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    Not at ALL true. The breeds came from breed clubs which are members of the AKC that have maintain the stud book for their breed and have met the AKC requirement for recognition.

    However, if the breed club rejects any aspect of its given breed, it is the final word on the standard for its breed. Such issues as color for one comes to mind.

    The fact that a dog may be registered with another registry does not guarantee AKC recognition.
     
  15. Gwinnywillow

    Gwinnywillow New Member

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    You can register white Schnauzers with the AKC.....depending on what the parent club has to say about it. People just don't get the point------the AKC is a REGISTRATION body. Just like registering your car with the DMV cannot insure the quality of the car you own, or its safety ratio, the AKC cannot control the quality of the dogs registered with it. That is the job of the parent club........requiring limited registration for dogs carrying certain faults. And ultimately, it is the job of the educated, reputable, responsible breeders to educate the public......and not sell pets unless they are spayed or neutered and on limited registration, etc.
     
  16. Athebeau

    Athebeau New Member

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    Speaking of colors of what is acceptable and non acceptable...with the Canadian Kennel club Gray and Brown Newf's are unacceptable colors and you cannot show them...with the AKC you can show them and they are accepted colors.
     
  17. oriondw

    oriondw user not active

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    Certain colors show another breed mixed in.

    For example in my color red and solid black/brown colors are prohibited.
     
  18. Athebeau

    Athebeau New Member

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    A Newf is a mixed breed dog...most purebred dogs are. They did have brown dogs in their making and gray dogs. It's just the CKC is a bit more picky than the AKC.
     
  19. Kayzhond

    Kayzhond New Member

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    Yes, I agree. The stupidity of mankind makes my butt hurt too beacuse if you knew anything at all about the AKC then you'd know that's not an entirely accurate statement. ;)

    The AKC is the oldest and most prestigious kennel club available in the United States of America. Founded, in 1898 th AKC was regsitering breeds long before any other registry. So that being the case, how was it that many of the earlier accepted AKC breeds came to the AKC without having ever beenr egistered with another registry?

    I'll definitely second that, the stupidity of mankind makes my butt hurt. ;) :p
     
  20. Dixie

    Dixie The ***** idiot

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    Heres another twist to this

    Ya know the three ACCEPTED colors of Labs - Black, Yellow, and Chocolate??
    Well, while doing some color genetics reading I discoverd that chocolate was NOT an orginal color. Chocolate was most likely came from another closely related breed such as a Chessie or Viszla.

    But however the Labrador did not originate from Labrador of Canada. It was originally called the St. Johns Newfoundland Retriever and when they were banned for a period of years back in the 1800s they were then imported into Britian where it was then perfected into the Labrador Retriever as we know today. Yellow Labradors were likely a product of inbreeding and a mutation of the black pigment gene.

    And heres another twist-
    What about albinos? Are albinos allowed to show? Are the accepted into the breed registry? Albino is a lack of pigment of any kind resulting in a snow white appearance. The way to tell if you have a true albino dog is to look at the skin- is it pale white, are the gums pale white? And usually the eyes will be a light ice blue color. And of course the hair will be snow white. Just wondering....
     

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