How to alienate people (for fun and profit)

Discussion in 'Buried Bones' started by DemitriousK, Jul 7, 2006.

  1. Sweet72947

    Sweet72947 Squishy face

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    Good post DemitriousK! Maybe some people should read this book: "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Dale Carnegie :)
     
  2. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Thanks. Never read it personally, but I suspect that you are correct! :)
     
  3. Renee750il

    Renee750il Felurian

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    This fits nicely here:

     
  4. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    I think more people need to read this
     
  5. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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  6. Angelique

    Angelique New Member

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    Great book on the use of positive reinforcement on humans! :)

    However, when humans have a flawed personal boundary system and/or becomed consumed with "right-fighting" over factual reality and truth, a NRM or a communication from their peers that their behavior is unacceptable and unproductive - also serves as a valid form of communicating boundaries on what is considered acceptable behavior within the group. :D

    Great thread!
     
  7. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    quote by Buddy's parents
    Thank you for that Buddy. I'm so glad if even one little idea I have helps someone have an easier time with their dog and their dog has an easier time with them. LOL.

    This is a good thread, interesting concept and so true about positive reinforcement working better on people to prevent them from shutting down, backing away, getting discouraged, toning down and losing confidence and interest in learning. Positive punishment, on the other hand does all those things. Emphasising and rewarding the good behavior tends to make the good grow bigger and bigger.... and the unwanted behavior gets squeezed out for lack of space.

    It is the same with people as it is with dogs that way, the same with every animal. Actually, I believe it's the same with higher non mammals as long as they have a decision making brain and aren't running off of pure instinct. I have tropical fish and I observe them and how they learn to make associations between things. When they're good associations, (me opening the lid to feed them shrimp) they all come rip roaring up to where my hand is like a bunch of school children running toward the source of free hand-outs of candy. If I'm cleaning the aquarium, blasting around the bottom with the vacuum, stirring up stuff, making the water bounce around, scaring them, they all hide down low behind the rocks and plants. Scary or unpleasant things happening make them withdraw. (duh) LOL. Good things make them perky and responsive.

    The first trouble with humans is, I think, that we are supposedly the most intelligent of the species. I think it's our intelligence which is our advantage as well as our detriment. It's a double edged sword. I tend to have more patience with dogs than I do with people. I expect more out of people than I do from dogs. It's very frustrating when you have too high expectations. Too much frustration causes some of us to go into a certain level of fight or flight drive. And that's when the **** hits the fan. We're primates. Primates flail their arms around and make a lot of noise. :eek: LOL.

    The second trouble with humans is that very fact that we are primates. Primates do things very differently than dogs. We are different than dogs than we are to eachother (in many ways), as well. Dogs are different to dogs than they are to us.

    So, although I agree with what you say in this original, well thought out post, I also see some little glitches there on account of some of these factors. You say to us people who know that since non-aversive, none to little positive punishment in dog training works with all dogs and all mammals, it does in theory also work on people... then why do we do and say the rotten things we do... "Shame on us?" There is a little catch. We are primates. And we do relate to eachother differently than we do to dogs in many ways, depending on our expectations of people and our expectations of our dogs. If we have too high of expections for our dogs, we tend to treat them as we would the more intelligent human specie. We're highly emotional and complex.

    With counter conditioning, we can modify a great deal of our behavior but I believe our intrinsic personalities have little hope for much change, (sort of like a dog who had no socialization as a puppy.) What's done is done. But there will usually be that time or two (only lol)where we fall back to our own nature and what we do with our thinking and emotions. And because of the huge array of individuals, experiences, personalities, there will coincide with that a huge multitude of behavioral responses.

    Of course, the bottom line, as the original post here explains is that yes, as science shows us, giving a paycheck for one little good deed is more effective in behavior modification than giving a shove, (or positive punishment)...more effective because not only does it increase the probability of that good deed being repeated, (because all mammals work for reward) but it causes the subject NOT to shut down or withdraw, thus, they stick around eagerly to learn more. Learning then, because of momentum...snow balls.

    I know I have not always been patient with some people on here. For that, I appologize. That's my personality to have a fairly short threshold for frustration. I am a primate and I have not had enough reinforcement probably for those few times where I was patient. So, long- lasting, high threshold patience is not something I learned to repeat in some cases. It never seems to pay off well enough.:D ROFLOL. And, on the other hand, like Dr.2Little, I have been accused of being arrogant, uneducated and a myraid of other uncomplimentary adjectives. (which I have never been accused of in real life) That positive punishment tends to catipult one like a rock from a sling shot...out of the thread, out of the desire to help someone asking for help, out of the state of having patience and into the fight or flight drive. :eek: It's probably got a lot to do with human nature, in other words.

    We never know for a while who we're dealing with, what their background is, what their perception of something is. It's extremely difficult without the luxury of seeing, hearing, watching body language, facial gestures to communicate, as on the Internet. Our cultures and upbringings are different. Our entire personalities are not visable. So, added patience is something we need when on the Internet. And yet it's something we seem to be starving ourselves for because it's easy....since we're leaving out such a great deal of facets of communication. Nobody has to see us. We can leave and never come back. We have an out if we want one. We don't HAVE to deal with anything too challenging. So we become a little bit lax. (?)

    Thanks for the invigorating thread. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
  8. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    Well said Doberluv.......:) plus this needed a bump.... :D
     
  9. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    The problem with freedom is that people do with it what they want ;) And we all want things that are at odds to what we give. Like a row of steel balls on strings (I forget the name of the contraption) we arent content with our lot and so wish to pass on our misery to others.

    We wish we had had a better day. So we do our best to make someone elses day worse. We wish that forum poster would know better, so we run him off instead of teaching him. And even though we try not to we all still slip once and a while and give our canin friends a good yelling at.

    The truth of the matter is that we humans get overwhelmed easier than we like to admit. And the reason for it is that we care so much what other people think. We're social animals (even if, like me, we try not to be). It matters to us that he/she thinks I'm pretty/handsome. It matters that my co-workers think I'm an asset. And it matters that this person on the other end of a forum postspays attention to me. And it matters, to me, what my expectations are of you.

    I think of all the sins that we commit on an hourly basis the most consistent is that we apply our unfounded expectations to people that we have no business expecting anything of. We expect that the new guy should learn his job as fast as we learned ours. We expect that the clerk at the movie store should have an opinion on whatever movie we randomly pick out of the inventory. We expect that someone posting to a dog forum should know better than to do that to a dog.

    But, really, what right to we have to expect those things of those people? And by whose standards are we judging their measure of success? The honest truth is that we judge those people using ourselves as the yardstick.

    "You're stupid" (at least more stopid than me)

    "You're arrogant" (at least not as humble as I am)

    "You're wrong" (at least not as right as I am)

    "You're mean" (at least... I'm usually a lot nices)

    We arbitrarily judge these people who come around looking for help by comparing them to ourselves. And by the same token we take the statements they make and use ourselves as the yardstick.

    "they just called me arrogant"

    "they just said I was wrong"

    "they think I dont know what I'm talking about"

    But we really have no right to make these comparisons. More than that we should have no need to. My advice to everyone is to feel confident in being who you are. Because if you're confident that you are how you want to be and think how you want to think and feel how you want to feel; the first time someone drops to the level of calling you a bottom feeding parasitic brainless piece of biological waste, you can chuckle to yourself and look at the situation from a detached, objective, perspective.

    Another reason people blow up at other people is another facet of expectation. Once you have been around a person (or their thoughts) for a certain period of time you should begin to have an idea of how those people will behave in a situation. The kind of expectation that comes from experience (as opposed to unwarranted, arbitrary, expectations) are GOOD things. Those kinds of expectations are the gut feelings that tell you exactly how your best friend is going to handle hearing something like really bad news -- you know how they're going to react and you brace yourself for it. The problem comes when you want someone to act differently than their nature ditcates... and they let you down.

    Theres nothing worse than thinking to yourself "just this once they'll understand and not do what they always do" and then they just go right ahead and do what they always do. We have no right to be dissappointed in people who meet expectations that we dislike.

    You have to allow people to be who they're going to be. You dont have to like it. You dont have to be present for it. But you wont change it.

    I know the original post wont change the way people come to the forums and conduct themselves. But I'm the kind of guy who tries. Even if I know its doomed. I cant live with myself unless I give the effort. If it fails... well then I can say I did kmy best, and I can sleep at night.

    I think I've been rambling... sorry about that.
     
  10. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    bumpty bump...
     
  11. Cybill

    Cybill New Member

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    Amen...very well said.
     
  12. iheartsammy

    iheartsammy ME+DOGS=CRAZY

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    wow, I never looked at this thread! I love it :D
     
  13. AnimalLoverCatRescuer

    AnimalLoverCatRescuer New Member

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    Wow this is such a great thread. This should be copied and posted on every forum that exists because some of them are so mean! In another forum (a cat one) I am a part of, half the things people say on here they would be kicked off for on there!

    I think one big problem is that people tend to forget that we aren't talking face to face. We cannot see the other persons immediate reaction to something we say to know what to say next. If we need to immediately clear up what we meant, or to laugh to show it's a joke, or whatever. People forget this stuff, and they come across in the wrong way making others upset and feeling bad.

    Another thing I think is totally rude and can't stand is the smilie with a box of popcorn. When someone asks a "stupid" question and a few people reply with just that smilie...showing they know the person asked something dumb and they are about to get flamed...Maybe I take that one the wrong way, in which case is a good example of the 2nd paragraph I just wrote, but I just think that is so rude.

    :popcorn: <--- this guy I mean
     
  14. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    Couldn't agree more with you. You'll find that there are many who do this purposefully... it's not cool. But I suppose they get enjoyment out of it.

    I am all for jokes, though, just when the time is appropriate.
     
  15. ToscasMom

    ToscasMom Harumph™©®

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    I do have a suggestion for the experienced people who find themselves answering the same question over and over and over for newbees. This can be frustrating. I am a computer person so I find myself in the same boat with another subject. So, when somebody asks me how to speed up their computer, for example, I whip out a prewritten previously massaged answer and then I cut and paste it. That way I don't find myself chewing my knuckles writing this again. It really works and it takes a few minutes instead of all the time it takes to write the same thing over and over and over again.

    I'm a doggie newbee, haven't had a dog in decades, so I'm sure I have asked some questions that have really simple answers, ad nauseum. A good ole cut and paste can go a long way to keep experienced people from secretly groaning, "Oh no. Not again". The same goes for those subjects a newbee asks that opens a can of disagreement worms. It gives the poster a chance not to react personally while still offering the Pro or the Con to the opinions offered.

    Just my two cents for what it's worth.
     
  16. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    As a computer person myself I know EXACTLY what you mean (No, I dont have time right now to come and see why your X wont do Y... I have my own computer work to do!). And, yes, It would be very useful for the chaz people to put together a FAQ or a WIKI and simply link appropriately
     
  17. ToscasMom

    ToscasMom Harumph™©®

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    I can tell you've been there. lol. How about, I also don't have time to do it for "free". How about, when they not only want free help, tie you up for hours, but they aren't willing to bother doing the work you give them EXPLICIT instructions for? How about I hop a plane and help ya out. lol. I find it amazing the trouble someone can get in with their computer but how they would rather just let their computer die than take the time to follow some simple spelled out procedures and download a couple of simple programs and run them. You?
    Did you notice that being a software engineer and/or computer security person online is worse than being a doctor?
     
  18. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Yea, I know your pain. Even worse when you're a SOFTWARE engineer and at family reunions all people want to talk to you about is which computer they should buy. Like we care :)

    But seriously, I got 3 letters for you: V N C

    even works with a firewall if you look into it. Punch a port in your FW for your PC, setup the client in listening mode on your PC, have their PC running a VNC server, they right click the vnc icon and click "add client" or some such. Give them your IP, and then POW you're controlling their computer.

    The computer equivalent of having your dog on a training lead :)

    "Here's just enough freedom to get in trouble, but not so much that I cant give you a good yank"
     
  19. ToscasMom

    ToscasMom Harumph™©®

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    Actually I configure computers for friends pretty often, mainly because I am afraid they will go to circuit city and get talked into a dog, scuse the pun. You know, no Ram, celeron processor, such a deal!

    I shy away from remote access, people are funny. Soon as something goes wrong, guess where the pointed finger goes? Right up your benevolent nose.
     
  20. jess2416

    jess2416 Who woulda thought

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    bumpty bump....read people read...
     

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