How to alienate people (for fun and profit)

Discussion in 'Buried Bones' started by DemitriousK, Jul 7, 2006.

  1. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Let me preface that this has nothing to do with being right or wrong about a given subject. This has to do with how you can be RIGHT and still be changing things for the WORSE... And how all those people who are WRONG get so many people to believe them!

    It's amazing that so many people with such good intentions can (and do) go about helping in such a counter productive way!

    For everyone here who's ever said "positive reinforcement is the only proper way to train" and also managed to call someone (in of course not so many words) a worthless human being in the same post: SHAME ON YOU. For everyone here who has in the same breath expected to change another persons opinion while completely humiliating them in the process: SHAME ON YOU TOO! For everyone who demands that theirs is the one true way, expecting everyone else to not only agree but completely denounce everything they've believed for so long all in the same instant... But isn't willing to give another persons views the time of day... SHAME! People like you run off the people who are trying to gain the understandings that you take for granted. People like you run off potential friends without giving them a chance. People like you actually HURT the pets of the people who are trying to do their best... The person who you run off because they have mistreated their puppy (because they didn't know better or how to handle the situation) will probably NEVER COME BACK, AND PROBABLY NEVER IMPROVE THEIR PRACTICES... That pet will likely NEVER have a safe and sane home that your PATIENT advice could have provided!

    Want to know the secret behind truly making a difference in peoples lives? Want to know the secret to educating the uneducated? Want to know how you can become a respectable pillar from which attention is not only demanded but to which it is freely given? The answer is surprisingly simple:

    Do not alienate people. (The more valuable a person feels because of how you treat them the more weight they will give your words!)

    If you're trying to convince me that your way is correct and that my way is incorrect... telling me outright that my way is wrong does only one thing: It causes me to be defensive! And while I am defensive I WILL NOT CONSIDER YOUR IDEAS (however valid those ideas might be). If you will not consider my opinion at least as long as you expect me to consider yours. Why should I consider your opinion at all? You seem to be incapable of learning or evolving... If I come to you asking for help, and you make me feel like an idiot for not knowing (not knowing something that I'm already admitting to not knowing by having ASKED the question in the first place) I will never come back to ask another question. I will continue in my ignorance because it is SAFER FOR ME TO BE WRONG THAN TO ASK AND BECOME RIGHT.

    And before you write this off as not being directed at you, take some time to review your replies to those people who riled your feathers, or asked the dumb question, or did the things you didn't like because they were ignorant... If you are blameless, then that is a wonderful thing. But everyone should keep these things in mind especially when an "outsider" comes around asking for help... You don't kick a dog who's already down, do you?

    And yes, I do understand that this post is a prime example of what it is speaking against. but if you've made it this far... how did it make you feel? Good bad or indifferent? How would the person already at the breaking point because they cant handle their new puppy have reacted if I had chastised them in the same way?

    Since you are still reading I'll assume that you have a thick skin, and want to know how I think you can make a difference in whichever cause you're fighting for? Well... since you're still reading I'll tell you:

    Train your audience. If you make the practice of engaging in a *two way* conversation with you a rewarding and (more importantly) enjoyable experience your audience will almost certainly take the time to consider your points on some level. Positive reinforcement works well here, and negative reinforcement will undo the good work of 10 people...

    Patience. Just as it takes a while for your dog to learn to deal with its new bladder and where to relieve it (once its figured out what that nagging sensation actually MEANS) it may take a while for your audience to come around. If you reinforce the interim time period negatively your audience is guaranteed never to come around.

    Explain yourself. Why should someone take your word as gospel? Why should you expect them to? If you don't feel that you should have to have a reason for being right, your audience wont feel as if you should be even considered to be right.

    Expect to have to listen to and at least understand your audience! If you cannot empathize with them, they will never empathize with you. This is the hardest part of being a truly convincing speaker. Why should you have to even consider their obviously wrong rationale?! Three reasons. First it makes them feel valuable which is a reward, and that will keep them engaged with you. Second... If you're truly right then taking the time to pay attention to what they have to say shouldn't be able to change your mind: what's true is true after one two or five hundred attacks. And third: if you spend all your time being perfect you might miss something worth learning. Yea... someone other than you might have something to say which is worth hearing... :D

    If you work to correct without condemning and alienating people then you will truly have a shot at making this world a better place by righting one wrong idea at a time. If you, however, can only be abrasive... well... how many people do *you* spend time with that constantly get on *your* nerves?
     
  2. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Let me don my fireproof, FLAME resistant outfit... True to my own advice I will now take and properly consider everything anyone has to say about my little rant. good bad or otherwise. reply (even flame if you have to) away!
     
  3. Roxy's CD

    Roxy's CD New Member

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    Everyone has good and bad days.

    Everyone has the right to their own opinion. How they voice it is their choice. If people choose to listen, that is also their choice.

    There are many people who have been very blunt and rude to me while I was asking for advice, and I did not take offense. Sometimes I didn't say anything, sometimes I defended myself and others I admitted I was wrong. But either way, most of the time the advice is good and I take it and run.

    I feel a bit of sympathy for people that come here and get flamed, only the ones that know no better. (like myself sometimes). But hey, it's the internet, getting flamed on Chaz can't be the biggest thing going on in your life.

    I've been flamed before. I've got in debates. Does it change my whole life? Nope it doesn't. Does it make me mad sometimes? Yep sure does, but ultimately it doesn't change my life really.

    I think with a lot of the more "experienced people" here on chaz, they have to repeat themselves a lot with every newbie. So after a while it gets redundant. If the newbie is posting about something that chazzers think is downright wrong, you have to expect people to get upset about it.

    Ex) I've been beating my dog trying to get it to submit and it's not working!

    Of course people are going to get upset when they hear stuff like that. I don't blame them. Me, personally, I'd decide whether this person has done this unknowingly, because their uneducated.. and go from there..

    That was long.. I'm done. I have a headache. LOL
     
  4. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    But isn't educating better than sending the person away? If we educate, instead of alienate them, we HELP people.... why doesn't everyone get that? :confused:
     
  5. Kase

    Kase New Member

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    I thought that was a very detailed, informative post, I understood what you were getting at.
     
  6. Buddy'sParents

    Buddy'sParents *Finding My Inner Fila*

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    Maybe THAT'S why I like you so much! ;) are you online? let's chat!
     
  7. Roxy's CD

    Roxy's CD New Member

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    Oh, I understand what your getting at. People come here for help and by flaming them they leave.. and don't get the information they were looking for.

    I guess just personally getting flamed wouldn't make me want to leave, but find out why I was flamed. What was wrong with what I did, what should I do and why. And if I was wrong, I'll admit it and change my ways.

    Helping people is a good thing, I think we just have to remember that not only are the people asking the questions humans but so are the people answering. They have their own experiences, their own thoughts and their own morals. Something that may be common knowledge to them may be something some people have never heard of... therefore explaining something so simple to them, may get frusterating.

    I'm just trying to say that I can see both ends of the spectrum.

    People asking questions and getting flamed: I feel bad for them, they came for info and got bashed.

    People answering questions "in a rude tone or manner": Maybe their just having a bad day, or maybe they had a bad experience that upsets them on the subject.
     
  8. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    All valid points, roxy! Allow me to make a couple of comments on your comments :D

    No, it probably wouldnt change your life... or the life of someone else. But it also won't change the life of a dog who's being abused because of somebody being simply uninformed (as opposed to just malignant.) What I see is that the pet being asked about is actually the one being hurt by the pet lovers found here. Its ironic that our dislike of members of our own species causes pain for a member of another species.... and that other species is that this place is all about, isnt it? Would you hurt a strangers dog because you didnt like the stranger? In person probably not, but thats exactly what I see going on here. The difference is the clean consience of not having to see the rest of the lift of the dog short (because it waas put down for being viscious (read: unsocialized and or cared for properly)) or long (a whole long life lived in fear of getting your owner angry and not knowing why... or worse... alone in the back yard with no one to belong to at all)

    A constructive use of those peoples time would be in putting together a chazhouds FAQ, and simply linking to it and saying "happens all the time... look at question 10"

    I appreciate the response!
     
  9. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Absolutely... It's very important to understand everyone involved. I, like you, tend to have a very tough internet skin... other people... not so tough... but if we care about their pets, we should take the time to answer well... or not answer at all... letting someone else be constructive and taking a break every now and again... makes the burden lighter :)

    People arent required to answer the same questio over and over... they do it on their own :) and their answers impact the lives of the pets being asked about :D

     
  10. Roxy's CD

    Roxy's CD New Member

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    LOL.

    That is a good idea Demetrious. A FAQ, very good idea.

    I agree that sometimes when people get flamed it's not good for their dog, not getting the advice they needed. It's just I truly feel, (maybe it's because I'm thick skinned, LOL) that if I really needed help, and I got flamed I wouldn't care. I'd either ignore those people, or suck it up and admit it. Yano, like, Ok, I get it, I messed up, now how can I fix this? LOL

    I try to reply "nicely" to training forum questions, or anything I may know a bit about, but there are some things that make me angry. I can't think of anything right now. LMAO, but there are, and I may find myself responding, not downright rudely, but in a defensive/offensive for better use of the word aggressive, tone. LOL

    All in all though, some people should tone down the blunt rudeness a bit..

    Am I blunt or rude??? Honestly?
     
  11. RD

    RD Are you dead yet?

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    I understand what you are saying, and I agree. I really think a lot of it is in how you say it. Most people here definitely have info, but sometimes the delivery needs work.

    I'm definitely guilty of this and I really have no good excuse for it. I'm passionate about dogs and I get fired up easily (is being Italian any excuse? ;)) but it's still no reason to attack people and push them away. I am thick skinned, insults and flames usually do not get to me and because of that I can be terribly blunt at times.. I don't expect people to take things to heart. I need to work on that, lol

    The people here are wonderful, they care very deeply for dogs and nobody likes to hear of dogs being neglected or mistreated. When we do hear of that, sometimes we get fired up and though I can't speak for other people, I don't always think before I post. I need to work on that, too. :p

    But, yes, good post and good point. If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit. I know I am a far better dog owner now than I was before I joined 2 years ago.
     
  12. Aussie Red

    Aussie Red Rebel With Cause

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    Good Post and agree. I try not to bash and don't like being bashed but have been . I'm tough and it really does not matter to me. I like to get info here and others views but have noticed alot of threads turning into a fire storm and just opt out of them.
    I have chosen not to answer some threads as the content upsets me so I stay out of it .
     
  13. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Absolutely! Thats a wonderful paraphrase. I Love it! "If we can talk to more people without scaring them away, more dogs will benefit"
     
  14. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    exactly what I would do! :)

    Yep... sometimes staying out of something is the best you can do. and if it's better than pushing someone away and possibly hurting their puppy... its definately the best choice!

    I think that if people learned that they arent *personally* responsible for replying to every (for example) potty training problem, they wouldnt get so irate. But when they obligate themselves to doing it it becomes work... and nobody likes work... especially when they feel like they're not getting anything baack from it... thats when it gets really nasty... :)
     
  15. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    As a first time puppy parent I can tell you that when I have to ask for help because I cant handle whats going on (which happens more than I'd like to admit) I feel *exactly like a new puppy who cant do anything right... and on top of that if you're in a new place where everyones yelling at you... well... "screw that" is what I would say (and a lot of people do, I'm sure)

    It'd be like going to the vet the first time your dog got sick... you're scared to death... you didnt realize that being lethargic was *BAD* you thought your puppy was just having a lazy day... now hes throwing up and you feel like the worst failure of a parent that ever graced te face of the planet... and the vet tells you to give up now because you'll never add up to a good puppy owner.

    Thats a *VERY* vulnerable moment for someone who cares... and a response like that... right then... crushing!!
     
  16. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    Not sure if you're referring to any of my posts but I'll bite...I'm definitely someone who practices and whole heartedly believes in non-aversive training techniques.
    I think that it depends on the circumstance. I sit almost daily in the homes of people who, sometimes bravely, admit to having smacked, yanked and pinched their dogs in an attempt to have them comply. In all, and I do mean all without exception, of these cases I take a deep breath and proceed to counsel them without showing judgement. I'm painfully aware that my ability to help a dog is absolutely dependant on gaining the trust of the owners and showing them understanding and compassion, even if it is at times totally insincere on my part.
    There have been times where, on this forum, I'm beyond exasberated with the lack of belief in a technique void of violence that I use successfully every day. It's not at all the genuine lack of knowledge that gets me going, it's the "in your face" approach to arguing FOR the use of physical punishment. I've also been accused of being arrogant for my committment to not using these methods. I've had youngsters with no bases for their arguements call me into question on my experience and education. I've resigned myself to answering training questions through PM so as to avoid having to deal with the posts advising the use of physical "stuff" to solve everything from nipping to obedience non-compliance. Oh and believe me, the PM's that I've gotten for not wanting to hurt dogs during training would melt your computer keys..:mad:

    You may want to look at the flip side of this issue before reserving judgement yourself. I've even been "wrist slapped" by someone (with obvious "short comings" himself) defending a youngster on here who is clearly just looking to argue while making himself feel OK about what he does to his dog/s...(note - no names used;) )
    I was pretty shocked when I first joined. I really thought that all dog lovers would want to know that training without physical correction really works. I will never go back to a day when we (trainers) used the rough stuff, why would I entertain the idea that it's effective "in some cases" when I know from experience that it's unnecessary. Been there...done that...will never "revert"!:D
     
  17. corsomom

    corsomom New Member

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    Thankyou for this post. I know I have been guilty of this and it does make me think.I know I posted something to someone and regreted it right away knowing I wasnt helping the problem.
     
  18. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Actually I didnt (and dont plan to) bother looking at the names of the people who i've seen who set me on this rant. I'm not trying to be hall monitor, and it wouldnt get me anywhere anyhow. Unfortunately the people who will listen will listen a the people who wont wont. Maybe I'll get through to one or two people who would otherwise be abrasive and might not now. Thats enough for me :)

    I bet that, in most cases, this calm and non combative attitude that you take works too! By simply asking they've admitted that they dont know and need help and that you might know better than they do. If you were harsh about it... They'd probably find someone else, wouldnt they?

    Thats exactly the kind of put off I've seen and am commenting about. Its not a good feeling to be condemned, put down, and put down as irrevokably and unarguably wrong. And if they ever wanted to share advice with you in the future I highly doubt you'd take it (even if it were good advice) because they didnt know how to deal with people who's views were different from their own.

    Luckily you have a firm foundation in your knowledge, beliefe, and methods. But if you didnt feel deep down that you were right... would you have stayed in the face of such arrogance/ignorance/combativeness?

    Yea... there is a definate difference between ignorance and meanspiritedness... :/

    I've been shocked while reading some things on here myself. Its gratifying to know that I'm not the only one! Thanks for sharing!
     
  19. Citrus007

    Citrus007 New Member

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    I think the main problem is that we aren't speaking face to face with the person and so we can't tell their tone of voice. What may be simply trying to help can accidently be worded in a way that wouldn't sound mean if it had the right tone to it but we can't tell the tone so we take it personally.
     
  20. DemitriousK

    DemitriousK Nobody In Particular

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    Guilty myself... In a different place, time and medium... Guilty myself :/ But being wrong in the past is not something one can change... and we might not always change things in the future... but if we take the time to think about who we are and how we behave... and it causes even the effort to be a better person... It was worth having thought about :)

    Very self aware... and brave... to admit something like that. I appreciate it!
     

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