How can you tell a "show" and "pet" quality in a puppy?

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by xpaeanx, Aug 18, 2008.

  1. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    I've always wondered how breeders are able to determine what puppy is "show" quality and what puppy is "pet" quality. They seem to do it at such a young age.... I would just like to know how... :)
     
  2. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    many folks use the Pat Hastings method...a series of evaluations. Really it's just about knowing your breed your standard and your lines...and getting input from others at times. I imagine what a person would look for would vary breed to breed quite a lot.

    But in general...overall balance, type, proper temperament, and then that little something special that makes your eye go to that puppy over and over.

    Of course to some...show simply means a lack...at 8-12 weeks old...of any disqualifying faults. ;)
     
  3. Boemy

    Boemy New Member

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    I guess a breeder with a lot of experience in Breed X just knows what to look for. Some things aren't readily apparent until the dogs are older, though. (Like may a dog is too short or too tall.)

    Others are obvious, like patched puppies in dalmatians.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Show people know what to look for !
     
  5. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    oh another question, how can you tell what a color is going to develop into? The family great dane is a blue, and when she was little her coloring was even, when she grew out of "puppy" stage, she had one spot that was a shade lighter, but not white.
     
  6. JennSLK

    JennSLK F150 and a .30-06

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    Basicly you evaluate the litter through out thier first 8 weeks. At 8 weeks you do a gradeing. meaning you stack the pups and take pics. You then go over and pick each ones faults apart. Red saysit alot and shes right. There are no show quality puppies. There are only show prospect puppies. However you have a verry good idea at 8 weeks how they will turn out as adults
     
  7. dr2little

    dr2little Moderator

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    I went to Pat's seminar and found the engineering side of it facinating. Pat uses the -3 days either side of 8 weeks- structure test. Really interesting.
     
  8. HoundedByHounds

    HoundedByHounds Oh, it's *you*

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    I have heard great things about Hastings.

    I find that in Beagles..what you see at 8 weeks for good or bad...is what you will have at maturity. It's like at that age and only at that age...they are little carbon copy's of their adult selves...lol. Before that it's a lot of baby fatness and silliness and after it's gawkiness and goofiness lol.
     
  9. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

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    I would think you'd be able to tell the structural traits young. What sucks is when you get that puppy and then 6 months later their bite goes off, or their ears start getting a little crazy. But in my house, we say screw it and show the dog anyway. Even if it's a serious fault, if the dog is overall the nicer dog, it will win.
     
  10. northrunner

    northrunner New Member

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    Awww the fun of picking show puppies. You do try to take your best shot at evaluating the puppy against the breed standard. My breed colour doesn't matter thank god, I would hate to have a breed where colours and patterns had to be a certain way...YIKES!! Even your best evaluation dogs are dogs and grow at different rates and odd things can crop up at any time.

    My last litter I had produced the SHOWIEST puppy I have ever had at 8 weeks. He is now 6 months old and is the raciest pup ever, so much for the show ring LOL

    Abby
     
  11. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    Yeah, that's why I was wondering. Some people seem to be really good at it though, and so I thought I would ask!
     
  12. Sniperess

    Sniperess New Member

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    Sniper at 8 weeks looked fantastic, ear set was just a slight tad on the high side but not horribly and it was hoped they would be ok. By 6 months it was clear his ear set was ok, not perfect, but he always holds them very high which makes it worse! I decided to neuter him and of course at a year he now holds them down better and they'd have probably worked just fine! UGH!
     
  13. Bahamutt99

    Bahamutt99 Dafuq?

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    Heh. I learned my lesson about altering dogs before you even try showing them. I altered Loki over a minor fault -- and because I was fairly rescue and past-experience brainwashed, and was terrified to have an intact female around -- and now wish I wouldn't have. She only needs a CH to be a UKC Superdog, and she would've finished even with her faults.
     
  14. northrunner

    northrunner New Member

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    I learned the "spaying/neutering at 6 months lesson" after spaying a dog because her bite was off a tick. Dear god its a Siberian, they don't run with their teeth!!! At 2 years her bite was fine and she was one of the best running dogs I had. Yes I kicked myself until the day I placed her in a retirement home....sigh:eek:

    Abby
     
  15. SmexyPibble

    SmexyPibble Blow. Me. Away.

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    Breeders don't guarantee whether or not a pup is show quality, it's a guess. They judge the dogs by guess because a lot of things can change as the pup grows. Such as the bite, topline, etc. Color patterns tell breeders a lot, but the pattern of the colors can change as the pup grows up. Size can be predicted to a certain extent. It's a small guess and a fairly unreliable one as the true potential of a show dog is not fully predictable until the dog is fully matured. Whether a pup is show quality or pet quality is quite a crutical decision for a breeder to make. This decision leads to the decisions or whether to crop, sometimes whether to dock, whether to sell as an inexpensive pet, or an expensive show quality pup with championships in his future.

    In Boxers what is considered a euthanize or pet quality dog is a dog with more than 1/3 white on the whole body. A white Boxer is a huge disqualification in the ring and most white pups are euthanized at an early age and rarely even sold as pet quality puppies, although they are very common in Boxer litters.

    Here is a helpful link of the difference in structure between two show and pet quality pups. http://darkstarrrotts.com/puppy_grading.htm

    So which pup will grow into this...
    [​IMG]

    And which pup grows into this..
    [​IMG]

    is fairly unpredictable but an important prediction for the breeder to make.

    To be continued...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2008
  16. SmexyPibble

    SmexyPibble Blow. Me. Away.

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    Being continued...

    BUT a dog that is totally out-of-standard CAN be VERY MUCH SO avoided by the breeder by breeding great dogs that have had showing & champion pasts. A breeder who breeds pet quality out of standard dogs is not a good breeder and is not going to be able to give you a good prediction on whether or not your puppy will be a show or pet dog. For example, if a breeder breeds white Boxers or Boxer with upturned noses, cow hocks or bow legs anywhere in his or her breeding program is not by any means a good or reliable breeder and you should not look to a reliable guess from the breeder, nor should you buy ANY pup from a breeder of this sort or anywhere near this ort. If the breeder is careful as to which dogs he breeds, he is likely to have good puppies and you are more likely to get a show quality puppy as well as a reliable decision and a more predictable one because of the parent's past.

    But also remember that just because the parents were champions does not guarantee you a champion puppy. Heck, there could be generations of champions and you could still end up with a bow legged, cow hocked, upturned nose Golden Retriever or any other breed for that matter [just used a Golden as an example].

    Okay, I'm done. :)
     
  17. Most Boxer breeders do not euth white puppies, they place them as pets.

    Also most breeders who place puppies as show prospects DO guarantee them. Yes, it is a guess, but it is an educated guess with most breeders.

    I have objective people come in to evaluate a litter at 8 weeks. Puppies are stacked on the table, and evaluators go over the puppy, watch it move, and then rate it from 1 to 10 on various traits.

    For the Choice litter I had 3 people here to help with the litter evaluation. One AKC judge who has bred over 50 Rottweiler CHs, one breeder, who is the breeder of my bitch and very familiar with the lines and how the puppies might develop, and also the stud dog owner.

    By all appearances, there were no puppies that would be graded as strictly pet quality in this litter. As they are maturing now near a year old, it appears that this was a correct assessment.

    The only one at this point who will not see the inside of the conformation ring is the pick bitch, whose bite went under at about 5 months. :(

    When grading puppies as show prospect, structure, movement and breed type are important, but so is attitude.

    Just my couple cents on the topic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2008
  18. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    It has been my experience, that it is best to have others with an educated eye and hopefully with much more than the breeders to critique the pups.
    Critiquing pups at 8 wks, is a long slow process lol, its not something that is done with a hour or two.
    It is also not uncommon for breeders to run on 1 or 2 pups that are 'picks' with a wait and see attitude. The breeders that I have dealt with do quarantee a show pup if that is what you have paid for, which means if the pup that you purchased isn't show quality, they will replace it. A breeding quality pup to me is a pup that has no major faults, will show/work and is a very good example of the breed, which also allows you to breed such dog with the breeders permission. Pet quality is generally a pup that has a temperament issue (shy, tender etc), conformation fault, movement fault, coat etc.
    A novice person wanting to get into showing/performance etc really should allow the experienced breeder direct them to the pup that they think would be best for them.
    I had promised someone once, that they could have pick male in a litter. I made the mistake of sending out a pic of the pups to the people that had already put down a deposite on a pup.
    This person, picked a pup from colour ONLY on a 3 wk old pup, for the life of me I couldn't talk this person out of their decision. By 8 wks, I knew the another male pup was the pick and she could have had him..........
    The pup she picked, she loves him and that is what counts the most, but she can't do everything that she wanted to with him.............where as the other pup matured into everything I knew he would and its stunning.
     
  19. SmexyPibble

    SmexyPibble Blow. Me. Away.

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    A lot of the ones I've talked with do frequently.

     

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